Bringing Tim Tebow & Others To The Fullness of Truth That Is The Catholic Church

Wednesday, December 14, AD 2011

A very interesting debate broke out recently following my article on the attacks Denver Quarterback Tim Tebow is coming under from militant liberal secularists concerning his public displays of faith. Catholic writer David L Gray wrote this piece and of course there have been many others. The debate shifted to Tim Tebow’s father who is an Evangelical leader and who takes missionary groups to Catholic countries like the Philippines so the people can “Hear the Gospel.” These kinds of statements either make Catholics laugh or get them angry. Whenever I hear these groups say that they are taking the Gospel into Catholic countries I think we should all say, “We have been preaching the Gospel since before the Canon of the Bible came to be,” or “When did your church start?  Actually, we have been under the same management for 2,000 years.” The crux of the matter is how do we willingly lead people to a place we think they most certainly want to go?

I have always found that outside of a few fundamentalist crackpots, most Evangelicals respect us when we humbly but boldly tell them about Church History, Apostolic Succession, the Real Presence and other Sacraments. Why? They sincerely want to know all they can about Jesus and with the aforementioned they aren’t even getting the Readers Digest version let alone the Fullness of Truth.

In some ways Evangelicals are the low hanging fruit of the religious world. They are eager people who want to know Jesus and boy can we show them Jesus. What about the Catholic Church Abuse scandals some say; shouldn’t that prevent them from coming home to Rome? Evangelicals are familiar with scandals, in many ways they have a belief that if a scandal brews it is the work of the devil and where the devil is you know that somewhere nearby the Gospel is being preached, otherwise the devil wouldn’t be there. The devil doesn’t waste his time fighting against with fluff, because fluff never saved souls. I dare say that some Evangelicals might also take to sites such as this or even sites like Michael Brown’s Spirit Daily that delve a little into Catholic Eschatology.

Some may say what about Catholics who have fallen away? Of course it is important for our lost brothers and sisters to come home. However, many are working on that, including Catholics Come Home which is doing amazing work bringing Catholics back home. Recently in Phoenix, 92,000 fallen away Catholics registered in Phoenix parishes thanks to a concerted diocesan campaign implement by Catholics Come Home, which included commercials on television and radio.

Some may say that reconciling the split with the Orthodox Church which took place in 1056 is the most important step, after all aren’t they closest to us in ideology and practice, and hasn’t reconciliation with the Orthodox Church been the primary push by Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI? Yes the last two pontiffs have made a big push with our liturgical friends to the East. However, here are a couple of points. There are more Evangelicals in the United States alone than there are Orthodox Christians in the entire English speaking world. Time is running out to bring our Evangelical brothers and sisters home. Why? Sadly most Evangelical organized churches outside the Southern Baptists are in a statistical freefall due to being raided by non-denominational mega churches. These mega churches which are increasingly becoming entertainment oriented churches have no sound theology to which to build their foundation. We all know what Jesus said about what you need to build your foundation on.  (You might want to read the following article one on what liberals have done to churches in an article entitled: If You Want Liberals To Run Governments Look At What They Have Done To Religion; Left It In Tatters & the effect of entertainment churches on society in an article entitled; Margaritaville Christianity, God’s Way or Our Way?

This leads us to one of the most underreported religious stories of the year; the Catholic Diocese of Orange, California buying Dr. Robert Schuler’s Crystal Cathedral, the nation’s first mega church which had gone bankrupt.  Some folks got caught up in the argument over whether a Catholic Church could even use something that hardly looks like a traditional church. However, think of the significance of the event. Rev, Robert Schuler was such a powerful name, his words were listened to and his church started an entire movement. Yet, look where his church ended up, going back home to Rome. What a metaphor for going full circle back to the Fullness of Truth, the Catholic Church.

While working on our upcoming national cable television show Non Negotiable, Producer & Director Christian Peschken talked about this very subject. Christian implored me that I needed to make this a bigger deal than it already was going to be for my upcoming book. He felt the symbolism of this the nation’s first and once most powerful mega church being turned over to the Catholic Church could not be understated. They who built their foundation on sand have now put their foundation on the Rock of Peter.

Continue reading...

17 Responses to Bringing Tim Tebow & Others To The Fullness of Truth That Is The Catholic Church

  • The debate shifted to Tim Tebow’s father who is an Evangelical leader and who takes missionary groups to Catholic countries like the Philippines so the people can “Hear the Gospel.”

    I’m pretty sure the Tebow family was around Mindanao, the Muslim area– that’s where he went back to talk to school kids not so long ago.
    The Moro Islamic Liberation Front could stand to hear the Gospel, and if the Evangelicals can get around the hate to get them to listen, more power to them.

  • I wonder if our atheist trolls will return to raise havoc with this blog entry. BTW, very good, David Hartline! My family is all Pentecostal Evangelicals. I am the only Catholic, so anything they learn about the Faith probably comes from me.

  • Until I had read Dave’s earlier piece about Tebow, I had just assumed he was another Phillip Rivers, what with his pro-life other Catholic-like stances. So that tells me that he just may be the kind of person who could easily cross the Tiber, if not plunge head-long toward his true home much like he does against his opponents despite his father’s anti-Catholic views. I’ve seen stranger conversions, after all.

    By the way, I just saw on the news a report about a controversy involving a rabbi, who says that the pro-Tebow crowd will go nuts and burn down mosques if the Broncos end up winning the Super Bowl.

  • Joel T.: I saw that, too.

    Sic semper tyrannis.

    They murdered 100,000,000 in the 20th century. Using the same “logic”, there ought to be a bounty on atheists.

    Liberals aren’t just evil and hate-filled. They are freaking stupid, too.

  • Pingback: THURSDAY MORNING EDITION | ThePulp.it
  • I recently posted a couple of articles on Tim Tebow also as I am am becoming increasingly saddened by the lack of willingness to understand Tim Tebow’s enthusiasm for serving the Lord Jesus Christ. Feel free to check them out.

    http://catholicboyrichard.wordpress.com/2011/12/15/is-time-tebow-gods-gift-or-something-methinks-so/

    Jesus once was asked by His disciples if they should forbid some other people who were preaching in His Name but did not follow with them. Jesus said, surprisingly “NO.” He further said that “those who are not against Me are for Me.”

    Tim Tebow is our Christian brother and should be respected as such. That is the teaching of our Church and Catechism (reference 817-820). His family is doing a marvelous work in a needy place. Do I wish they brought the Gospel from a strictly Catholic perspective? Of course. But I would rather see a good Protestant who deeply loves Christ than a bad Catholic who snoozes through Mass any day. For us to condemn their work as “anti-Catholic” because they do not follow the hierarchy is ludicrous.

    I say let’s pray for Tebow, and hard. His job is not easy and the temptations are very real in the world he now lives in. satan and not a few women would love to see him fall. Perhaps, just perhaps, he will surprise us all and become a Catholic priest one day. It just could happen.

  • “I say let’s pray for Tebow, and hard. His job is not easy and the temptations are very real in the world he now lives in.”

    I agree, as long as we are not referring to pass completions or fourth quarter comebacks, etc. We pray that Tebow follows and obeys God’s will, whatever that may be. Praise God always, even after a spectacular, improbable, nationally-televised failure. God has a plan for each of us, and we pray for the grace and the wisdom to make the right choices at the right time. Our chosen profession is not always the one God wants for us, and failures — small or spectacular — can be a way of telling us we need to move on.

    Marion Barber deserves my huge respect and prayers for comments he made after his spectacular, improbable, nationally-televised failure:
    http://www.suntimes.com/sports/football/bears/9397550-606/marion-barber-keeps-the-faith.html

    I respect Tebow for the adversity he has overcome, not (yet) for on the field success.

  • Richard,
    I agree with most of what you say, but (i) I think your notion that some Catholics view Tebot’s work as anti-Catholic is a pure red herring and (ii) your description of Catholicism as following the hierarchy is a disappointing trivialization of who we are.

  • Foxfier,
    Although there is a significant Muslim population in Mindanao, Catholics still make up 63% of the population there. Besides this, Tebow built his hospital in Davao which is 95% Catholic.

  • “This leads us to one of the most underreported religious stories of the year; the Catholic Diocese of Orange, California buying Dr. Robert Schuler’s Crystal Cathedral, the nation’s first mega church which had gone bankrupt. Some folks got caught up in the argument over whether a Catholic Church could even use something that hardly looks like a traditional church. However, think of the significance of the event. Rev, Robert Schuler was such a powerful name, his words were listened to and his church started an entire movement. Yet, look where his church ended up, going back home to Rome. What a metaphor for going full circle back to the Fullness of Truth, the Catholic Church.”

    So what does the Church of Nicea being turned into a mosque mean? Secondly, I don’t understand why Muslims need converted if the Church says that they can reject Christ and still inherit eternal life. Not being combative, just some honest thoughts.

  • I like to remind some people of some Gospel-biblical Truth. Jesus told the apostles when they told Him some people are teaching your material but are not with us. His reply, those who are not against us are with us. Revelation gives us the crude truth that if we are lukewarm, not hot or cold, Jesus will “puke” us out! Too manyespecially older Catholics today who do attend Mass are out the door as soon as Communion starts or walk out when they receive the sacrament. I witnessed that so much in a US resort area. St Paul is the patron saint of those who were so full of hate he met Jesus and he sure accepted Him as Lord and Saviour and showed he believed Him when Jesus said why persecute ME, the Church and zealously filled up and built up that Church until they chpped his head off in Rome. The Tebows are doing Jesus’ work and please GOD they will do a Paul on the road to Damascus and make it “all better” as the little ones say, and do not join a parosh where Mass is over for most of the congregatiom while the Supper of the Lamb is being served to the other guests.

  • Thanks for your post G Burch. What does the Church at Nicea being turned into a mosque mean? Sadly, it means the people of the day were taken over in a bloody invasion that saw what is now modern day Turkey become Muslim. Our old friend Mack who posts here occasionally refers to Istanbul as “Occupied Constantinople.” I never give up hope because the Church is who she says she is, “The Fullness of Truth.” I don’t say this out of pride or arrogance but only because Christ said He was the Way the Truth and Light.” He passed that light via the keys of leadership to St Peter and every other successive Pope. The Church says that other religions have pieces and or slivers of the truth. However, the Fullness of Truth belongs to the Church Jesus founded, the Catholic Church. Jesus will judge us all and He knows the ins and outs of all of ours souls. I hope that helps.

  • Us Catholics should be ashamed. Where does the “press” go to find out the “truth” about our Church? Biden, Kerry, Pelosi, “sister” Teresa Kane, “SNAP”, “catholics” for choice, etc.. Even though Tim & his family don’t have all the truth, at least they are standing up for Jesus as in Col. 3:17, which is something that we are not doing very well, are we? Didn’t Jesus say that all men will bend the knee to Him (also, God said the same in the O.T.) & now, men that wouldn’t dare to bend their knee in public (not very manly) are doing the same on national T.V., even though it is in mockery, but who knows just how & when the Holy Spirit will hit them. It will be a wonderful day the the Tebows became Catholic. Can you imagine the horror from the press when a Catholic will do the same as Tim on the field & in front of a microphone? Glory & Praise the Lord. +JMJ+

  • JMJ, yes it is very sad that so many Catholics are CINO’s (Catholic In Name Only.) However, the Fullness of Truth marches on and is examplified in the fine work of many people, some of which I mentioned in the article. While we may be angry at those who let down the Faith, we should never forget those who show her best side to others. Maybe we will have our own version of Tim Tebow someday, or maybe just maybe someone will show him The Fullness of Truth!

  • There are 23 truly ancient churches of varying shades of heresy and schism to the Catholic church. These range from Nestorians and Copts to the Armenian Church and the Chaldeans, Ethiopian church etc. ALL venerate Mary as a unique channel of grace. ALL of them are hierarchal, venerate images and share dozens of beliefs and tendencies with the Catholic church. NONE of the most ancient churches are remotely like the ‘primitive’ church the protestants cooked up from historical ignorance, pride and fantasy. For two hundreds years the apostolic church subsisted without ‘the’ Bible’ which is the gift of the church guided by the Holy Spirit to all Christians. History + Protestantism + Bibliolatry = 33,000 Protestant sects and growing.

  • I am a Filipino and I’m grateful to what Tim Tebow is doing to serve the underprivileged and the needy in my country. I certainly admire Tim for his courageous witness of how to be a true follower of Jesus Christ as he knows it. I’m a Catholic and would be overjoyed to hear the news someday about Tim entering the Catholic Church but I leave that work to the Holy Spirit. I can only pray so much for him. Whether he becomes a Catholic or not in the future, as long as he remains faithful to God until the end, I see no problem with that.

  • Well, Tebow and his team saw their winning streak come to an end against the Patriots. At least he will be keeping his lamp that is his faith out for all to see rather than hidden under a table.

Why The Secular Left Dislikes Tim Tebow

Sunday, December 11, AD 2011

“Seriously!” I can still hear that word echo through my brain even though the event took place this past summer. At a social gathering a young gentleman and his lady friend (and I use that term loosely) were gesticulating wildly when someone in the crowd told them about Tim Tebow beliefs.  Evidently they weren’t football fans, so someone brought them up to speed about Tebow. At this point in his career many now say, “he’s a nice kid but…,” However, at that point they didn’t even say that; they simply used words like a “Bible thumper” or someone “lost in the 50s.” Now they have to throw him a bone by at least saying, “He’s a nice kid, but…” However, wait until next year when someone connects the dots and assumes he probably won’t vote for the Obama-Biden ticket. The secular left is going to throw everything at him including the kitchen sink.

I was recently asked by someone to give a Catholic perspective about Tebow. I had to explain to this individual that Pope Benedict XVI probably doesn’t even know who Tebow is, but that I am sure the Holy Father would appreciate his earnest approach. Now I also quite convinced that our friends on the Secular Catholic Left probably wish Tebow would shut up or at least voice his concern about their favorite make believe topics such as man made Climate Change.

I heard as much recently while channel surfing. A glutton for punishment I stopped briefly on MSNBC to hear one of their emasculated males go on some sort of tirade about Governor Rick Perry because the Texas Governor (in a Iowa TV commercial) said he believed in marriage between a man and a woman. This particular MSNBC host seemed to really enjoy his own commentary because he concluded by saying he was surprised that the particular Perry Commercial wasn’t in black and white because it seemed right out of the 1950s.

The left has so many things going for it with their social engineering, the daily liberal propaganda they try to shove down the throats of those in the western world via the mainstream media, along with the silver screen and television; one would think they would be ecstatic. However,  when they hear about Evangelicals like Tim Tebow or the increase in Catholic seminarians and young women in religious life who happen to actually believe in what the Catholic Church teaches and even goes so far as to wear cassocks and habits, well this to them is outrageous. Anyone who adheres to what Tebow or these young seminarians and women religious believe, well they must be either dolts or dangerous right wing throwbacks.

These nefarious conspirators want to throw American back into the 1950s when people actually went to church, believed in right and wrong and almost universally applauded any leader (like our current Pope Benedict XVI) who railed against the Dictatorship of Relativism. These counter revolutionaries might even want to cling to their guns and religion.  

In all my days as a player and coach, I don’t think I ever really prayed for a victory. To me God has His purposes and I as a humble adherent to his message just chose to follow Him. However, that doesn’t mean that just once in a while God may actually engineer a game or two for His purposes. Maybe, just maybe Tim Tebow’s miraculous last six victories are meant to send us all a message. Believe, even when the world says there is no God. Believe, when some say God is just some sort of absent minded Mr. Magoo as Bill Maher and some of his Apatheists think. Believe, when a disbelieving world says for God “it’s all good,” and there are not right or wrongs just different shades of gray. Believe, even when leaders think abortion is a fine alternative after all they would hate to see their teenage daughters punished with a child.

Reggie Johnson and or myself might just ask Tim Tebow (if he agrees to appear) how his faith came to grow and flourish on the Christian Peschken produced television program Non Negotiable, which God willing should be on the air in 2012. By now you may have probably heard that doctors tried to talk Tebow’s parents into having him aborted since it was believed he would be deformed and probably too small to live if he was born. (You might recall Tebow and his mother appeared in a Super Bowl Pro Life ad while he was still in college.) God only knows how many others parents were probably told the same scenario. All of these factors cause those with or without beliefs to evaluate their own beliefs when someone is so adamant and happy go lucky as is Tebow with his beliefs.

Continue reading...

61 Responses to Why The Secular Left Dislikes Tim Tebow

  • Tebow’s become a political football. The secular left hates him because the religious right loves him.

  • Tim didn’t get the diktat. Only godless rats are allowed to publicly express their beliefs.

  • The secular left hates him because the religious right loves him.

    Try a more plausible hypothesis: the secular left hates him because that’s how they roll.

  • Leftists tend to be a very intolerant bunch, which makes their usual shouting about tolerance hilarious. When it comes to public displays of Christian faith they react like vampires to a cross in an old horror flick.

  • RR-
    the reverse is true, for some of us; I wouldn’t even know who Tebow was if it wasn’t for so many lefties hating him. Sadly, it’s not just the secular folks, either.

  • I shy away from public displays of religiosity. Much of my experience of public prayer has been negative. Only God knows whether a public display is for Him or is mere self-aggrandizement.

    I hope that Mr. Tebow’s is a deep-rooted impulse to praise the creator who animates him with the prowess as he displays on the field.

    As a Philadelphian, I’m a bit jealous of Denver and their Broncos.

  • Pingback: TUESDAY MORNING EDITION | ThePulp.it
  • Persacution Complex. A staple of the religious right. Has it occurred to any of you that maybe you are imagining all the hate? I myself am an Atheist (bring on the hate, you know you want to) and I’m indifferent to Tebow, my issue is with all this hype surrounding him solely because he is a christian. Face facts, Tim Tebow is an average quarterback. He’s not the worst in the NFL, but hes no Drew Brees or Tom Brady (check the stats: http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/passing/sort/quarterbackRating) The reason Tebow wins these games is because of the team itself. The last game was won because the broncos kicker managed to pull out two 50+ yard field goals. The kicker did that, not Tebow. I’m not trying to offened anyone, but calm down. People are allowed to not like someone for a number of reasons, not just because of their religon.

    BTW, I always get a good laugh at christians who cry about “intolerance” when I read stories like this: http://elev8.com/news/orethawinston/all-american-muslim-controversy/

  • “Has it occurred to any of you that maybe you are imagining all the hate?”

    Too funny. SeanB. (You’re not serious, are you?)

  • Sean B, first of all, I think it would be fair to those non believers to seperate non belief in two categories. I have met earnest non believers who say they try to believe but it is hard for them. They have no ill will toward believers and even feel a sense of loss for not believing. However, they keep an open mind. Your post seems to be of that group who doesn’t keep in open mind and has some sort of Father Figure baggage as Jung and even Freud stated (though an athiest Freud was rather amused by those athiests who mocked and or proselytized their beliefs as if their atheist beliefs were a religion.)

    You went on about “perseuction complex” and “bring on the hate, you know you want to.” What is that all about? I could have linked to sites that mocked Tebow with four letter tirades, but I didn’t because this is a family site. I could have linked to various pro abortion stories that essentially admit their killing the unborn and seem to take some sort of demonic joy in their act and the heartache that these monstrosities cause for believers. Once again I did not. I could have linked to the rapidly growing , I bet I can find 1,000,000 Facebook fans who hate Tim Tebow but I did not.

    Tim Tebow is someone I have rooted against in just about every college game he played because he was a Florida Gator and being a Buckeye fan, well we certainly have bad memories of playing the Gators. I simply cheered on Tebow the last few weeks because; yes he is a great guy who I think the world needs more of and he also played for a horrible team who you couldn’t help but root for once they started getting their act together.

    Sean B, if there are some believers who you feel hate from prehaps it is because by the mockery you throw our way and by your casual dismissal of God, yes you might bring on some righteous anger in a believer. Have you ever really pondered how ridiculous your belief system is? I mean it really only reared its head in the Enligtenment following the Protestant Reformation. There exists no primitive culture in the world who were atheists. God did implant knowledge of Him in everyone. Perhaps you might want to read “God Is” by the late Oxford Physicist Alan Hayward who pretty much concluded that it would have been more than a 1,000,000,000,000 to 1 shot that Earth could have the right amount of water, oxygen, temperature etc to exist by simple random chance. As someone once said, “I don’t have enough faith to be an atheist.”

    I will conclude with this point from my upcoming book, a famous atheist once said that random chance not only made the planet earth but also could make a monkey with the right amount of time bang out a sonnet worthy of Shakespeare on a typewriter. A few years ago a zoo took a computer keyboard and put in a zoo’ monkey cage. After several keyboard were beat upon, jumped on, urianted on etc the monkeys had indeed written many thousands of characters on the monitor. Yet not even one word, let alone a sonnet worthy of Shakespeare. Take care my friend and keep an open mind. You may have given up on God, but He will never give up on you.

  • The Infinite Monkey Theorem that our friend Darwin Catholic uses as his avatar! A possibility, but not within any relevant time period.

    I”n this context, “almost surely” is a mathematical term with a precise meaning, and the “monkey” is not an actual monkey, but a metaphor for an abstract device that produces a random sequence of letters and symbols ad infinitum. The probability of a monkey exactly typing a complete work such as Shakespeare’s Hamlet is so tiny that the chance of it occurring during a period of time even a hundred thousand orders of magnitude longer than the age of the universe is extremely low, but not actually zero.”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinite_monkey_theorem

  • @Dave
    “You went on about “perseuction complex” and “bring on the hate, you know you want to.” What is that all about?” Simple. You may not realize this, but christians aren’t all that friendly to those of us in the non-belief system. Your post more then highlights this fact.

    “Your post seems to be of that group who doesn’t keep in open mind” I am an Atheist BECAUSE of an open mind. The first half of my life I was raised catholic. I’ve been baptised, I’ve had my first communion, and I sat in church and sunday school every week untill I realized it made no sense.

    “Have you ever really pondered how ridiculous your belief system is?” Silly me, clearly the religon of virgin births, the dead rising over the weekend and a universe created in 6 days far less ridiculous. Also, you ever eat at a red lobster?

    “There exists no primitive culture in the world who were atheists. God did implant knowledge of Him in everyone” Soooooooo how does that explain the greeks who worshiped Zues, or the Scandanavians who worshiped Odin? Do they exsist? Did they imprint their exsistance in them?

    BTW, You bring up the facebook page, so I pose the question. Could this be your fault? You took an average quarterback who belives in god and made him out to be the greatest Football player in the history of football?

    Also, can’t help but notice he works on sunday. Just saying…

  • “There exists no primitive culture in the world who were atheists.”

    Well yeah…. The enlightened theists of the time killed all the atheists as heretics or witches.

  • Contrary to Sean B’s assertions, there is vast amount of evidence from science for what the Bible claims. Dr. Hugh Ross at the Reasons to Beleive Institute discusses these at length at his web site. Perhaps Sean B should start at the sub-links here:

    http://www.reasons.org/physics/constants-physics

    Like almost every atheist I have met to date, Sean B believes in his religion of scientism (to be differentiated from science) and atheism (my god is me) with every bit as much fervor as a Southern Baptist Fundamentalist believes in short Earth history creationism.

    So may Sean B’s closed mind be open enough to consider what Hugh Ross – a bona fide scientist – writes. There is a wealth of information at his web site and it will take days to sift through it.

  • Dear Atheists: Thank you for contributing to solidify that God exist and is among us.

  • Bob how could an atheist be a heretic or witch, since athiests don’t believe in anything but themselves. As I stated in my article, atheism first came about during the Enlightenment following the Protestant Reformation. Atheism is a very new and very self absorbed belief system. By the way Bob, how many millions of believers did the atheist Joseph Stalin, the atheist Mao and the atheist Pol Pot murder?

  • It appears that a comment sarcastically stating that enlightened theists murdered atheists in primitive societies has been deleted. No matter. The accusation should be addressed, at least by drawing a comparison with the almost 100 million people whom atheists of the 20th century murdered (i.e., Josef Stalin, Mao Tse Tung, etc.). Maximillien Robespierre in the France of the late 1790s was a trial run.

    PS, here are a few more articles for the atheist to consider:

    Temporality beyond Time: What the Creation Reveals
    http://www.reasons.org/temporality-beyond-time-what-creation-reveals

    Fine-Tuning For Life In The Universe (AUG 2006)
    http://www.reasons.org/fine-tuning-life-universe-aug-2006

    I have Dr. Hugh Ross’s book at home that gives the figures for the 93 physical constants of the universe listed in the last web link that have to be fined tuned for life to appear, sometimes to as much as one part in 10^100 (that’s a 1 followed by 100 zeroes) or more. That means that a chimp has to pound out 93 different books having 10^100 characters with no mistakes. It’ll take a while for a chimp to do that – more time than the universe itself has.

    “For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made.” Romans 1:19-20a

  • Opps, that comment wasn’t deleted! My bad! sorry!

  • Dinesh D’Souza, a Protestant evangelical apologist, wrote an interesting article in the Christian Science Monitor entitled, “Atheism, not religion, is the real force behind the mass murders of history.”

    http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/1121/p09s01-coop.html

    There is a certain logic to this. Atheists reject God, the giver of life Who is life Himself. So the only thing they have left to offer is death.

  • Dave – http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/heretic ; “anyone who does not conform to an established attitude, doctrine, or principle.” The catholic church burned heretics, witches, and pretty much anyone who would dare spread dissent from their viewpoints.

    Additionally, atheism is not a new concept, it existed during ancient days – see Samkhya Philosophy from around 200AD. Also see “Diagoras of Melos”.

    Finally – I find it fascinating that you bring up Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot – leaders of communist regimes, well known for their brutality and inequality. Are you saying that the only thing stopping you from going on a mass murdering spree is your belief in God?

  • “Are you saying that the only thing stopping you from going on a mass murdering spree is your belief in God?”

    While not directed towards me, the short answer is YES!

    But for the grace of God, there go I. Without God man behaves like a mindless, irresponsible baboon.

  • @Paul – please don’t reproduce.

  • @Paul
    That does not say much about you. I don’t believe in god, do you know why I havn’t gone on a killing spree yet?

  • @Bob:

    Too late. I have already reproduced. It’s that old “be frutiful and multiply” commandment back in Genesis.

    @Sean B:

    Obviously the grace of God has penetrated somewhere into your psyche – thankfully!

  • Romans 7:14 though 8:9 bears on this discussion, but I am unsure that an atheist would understand.

    14* We know that the law is spiritual; but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15* I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. 16 Now if I do what I do not want, I agree that the law is good. 17 So then it is no longer I that do it, but sin which dwells within me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot do it. 19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I do. 20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I that do it, but sin which dwells within me. 21 So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. 22* For I delight in the law of God, in my inmost self, 23* but I see in my members another law at war with the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin which dwells in my members. 24* Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I of myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

    1* There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2* For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and death. 3* For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do: sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, * he condemned sin in the flesh, 4* in order that the just requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5* For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6* To set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, indeed it cannot; 8* and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9* But you are not in the flesh, you are in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Any one who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.

  • Pingback: Tim Tebow and Catholics – the Emerging Love Hate Relationship
  • What’s with the sudden oh-I’m-a-victim-and-you’ve-got-mental-issues thing from atheists? Just the usual projection, someone suggested it, or just happenstance that I’ve seen it pop up recently?

    Bob- please note the primary definition; the third definition down is a (metaphorical, in this case) less common use, same as in a normal, printed dictionary. BTW, the logical fallacy you’re committing is called equivocation. (Incidentally, protestants are the ones that went for burning in a big way, and even then it wasn’t as big as Hollywood and various anti-Christian groups like to pretend.)

  • Sean B & Bob, you guys are making this very easy. You atheists are the smart ones really? Samkhya is a Hindu school of thought, hardly an atheist thinker. The Catholic author Mark Shea often says, scratch an atheist and find a fundamentalist, never more true than with your posts. http://www.ncregister.com/blog/zac-alstin-notes-a-basic-principle/

    I don’t know how Paul and I could have been nicer in our earlier posts and yet you basically tell us how smart you are even though you couldn’t debunk any of our historical posts. In Paul’s case you went the old Eugenics-Margaret Sanger route and just told him not to reproduce. I can’t wait to see what your Psychological retort to Foxfier’s Projection analysis might be.

    Perhaps I should take some advice from a student of mine who I taught in my first year of teaching. I was teaching World History and blessed to have a very intelligent eclectic class. They all excelled except one student who always had excuses or complaints about everyone and everything. I tried to connect with the kid to see if there was something I could do. Finally one female student must have noticed my anguish and she gave me some great advice which I think applies to most militant atheists like yourselves, “With all due respect you are overthinking this siutation. He doesn’t want to achieve so blames everyone and everything but himself. He’s just lazy,” she said. An apt description of militant atheists; you would rather make excuses than see the trees for the forest.

    To quote the old commercial, “A mind is a terrible thing to waste.” You have all the evidence for God that you need, but because it isn’t the way you would do it, you just pretend He doesn’t exist. When a believer screws up, you rejoice, you think it lets you off the hook. My guess is you would never read the links provided by others or read the works of great minds like St Thomas Aquinas or St Albert the Great, who is father of modern science, for you fear the truth you will read. How sad you that you live such self absorbed and narcissistic lives. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albertus_Magnus
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Aquinas

  • @foxfier “What’s with the sudden oh-I’m-a-victim-and-you’ve-got-mental-issues thing from atheists?” Did you miss the whole “WAH WAH, leftists are mean to tebow” article? Like I said, Christians love the persicution complex.

    @Dave “An apt description of militant atheists; you would rather make excuses than see the trees for the forest.” Or maybe, just maybe, the proof against christianity is stronger then the proof for? Anyone can say “Goddidit” to answer all the questions of the universe and be done with it, it actually takes effort to prove things WITHOUT god to fall back on. Try opening your mind my friend.

  • @foxfier “What’s with the sudden oh-I’m-a-victim-and-you’ve-got-mental-issues thing from atheists?” Did you miss the whole “WAH WAH, leftists are mean to tebow” article? Like I said, Christians love the persicution complex.

    @Dave “An apt description of militant atheists; you would rather make excuses than see the trees for the forest.” Or maybe, just maybe, the proof against christianity is stronger then the proof for? Anyone can say “Goddidit” to answer all the questions of the universe and be done with it, it actually takes effort to prove things WITHOUT god to fall back on. Try opening your mind my friend.

  • Sean B,

    You did exactly what every atheist I have ever met did. You refused to read and study information that disagrees with your preconceived notions. You want to be God even though you declare you evolved from nothing but a mindless ape. Go to the Reasons to Believe Institute and study what a bona fide scientist has to say. Start here:

    http://www.reasons.org/physics/constants-physics

    http://www.reasons.org/rtbs-creation-model/tcm-big-bang

    By the way, God DID do it (i.e., creation) and you will find that out one day. You and I owe Him our allegiance, our obedience and our love. But in spite of the fact that you denigrate and revile and criticize and condemn with unceasing loathing any belief in and love for God, God still loves you – so much so that His only begotten Son died for you – and that is what must burn you up with unceasing agony.

  • I’m glad Tebow is winning. He’s thanking Jesus every time. Now when they lose I guess he has got to thank Satan. After all, it is only consistent with his “reasoning”.

  • Oh I read things I don’t agree with. The bible for instance. According to the bible, the Earth was created by god. Also, the bible says the sun revovles around the earth (Psalms 93:1) and that the earth is flat (Job 11:9). And how did those two work out?

    Why would I be burned up about the death of the son of a guy I don’t believe ever exsisted?

  • There is a web site called “Evidence for God” at http://www.godandscience.org. It’s a little too fundamentalist for my tastes, but it aptly summarizes what Dr. Hugh Ross and other Christians who are scientists have explained about the degree of fine tuning of the physical constants that make up the universe. When confronted with this evidence, the atheist invariably invokes without a shred of physical evidence an infinite multiverse where an infinite number of universes exist. The atheist explanation goes like this: if the number of universes is infinite, then surely one will have life. This shows that atheists have simply made the multiverse their god – a god of esoteric unproven mathematical equations and all without a shred of physical evidence, nor can there be because the laws of physics are different in these different universes, so we could never observe them with our senses anyways. How is that different than an infinite invisible God? Nevertheless, before I get carried away with myself, let’s have at least some salient points in the article at http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/designun.html:

    —–

    According to Carl Sagan, the universe (cosmos) “is all that is or ever was or ever will be.” However, the idea that the universe is all is not a scientific fact, but an assumption based upon materialistic naturalism. Since Carl Sagan’s death in 1996, new discoveries in physics and cosmology bring into questions Sagan’s assumption about the universe. Evidence shows that the constants of physics have been finely tuned to a degree not possible through human engineering. Five of the more finely tuned numbers are included in the table below. For comments about what scientists think about these numbers, see the page Quotes from Scientists Regarding Design of the Universe.

    Fine Tuning of the Physical Constants of the Universe

    Ratio of Electrons:Protons
    Max Deviation:
    1:10^37

    Ratio of Electromagnetic Force:Gravity
    Max Deviation:
    1:10^40

    Expansion Rate of Universe
    Max Deviation:
    1:10^55

    Mass of Universe
    1:10^59

    Cosmological Constant
    1:10^120

    These numbers represent the maximum deviation from the accepted values, that would either prevent the universe from existing now, not having matter, or be unsuitable for any form of life.

    Recent Studies have confirmed the fine tuning of the cosmological constant (also known as “dark energy”). This cosmological constant is a force that increases with the increasing size of the universe. First hypothesized by Albert Einstein, the cosmological constant was rejected by him, because of lack of real world data. However, recent supernova 1A data demonstrated the existence of a cosmological constant that probably made up for the lack of light and dark matter in the universe. However, the data was tentative, since there was some variability among observations. Recent cosmic microwave background (CMB) measurement not only demonstrate the existence of the cosmological constant, but the value of the constant. It turns out that the value of the cosmological constant exactly makes up for the lack of matter in the universe.

    The degree of fine-tuning is difficult to imagine. Dr. Hugh Ross gives an example of the least fine-tuned of the above four examples in his book, The Creator and the Cosmos, which is reproduced here:

    One part in 10^37 is such an incredibly sensitive balance that it is hard to visualize. The following analogy might help: Cover the entire North American continent in dimes all the way up to the moon, a height of about 239,000 miles (In comparison, the money to pay for the U.S. federal government debt would cover one square mile less than two feet deep with dimes.). Next, pile dimes from here to the moon on a billion other continents the same size as North America. Paint one dime red and mix it into the billions of piles of dimes. Blindfold a friend and ask him to pick out one dime. The odds that he will pick the red dime are one in 10^37.

    The ripples in the universe from the original Big Bang event are detectable at one part in 100,000. If this factor were slightly smaller, the universe would exist only as a collection of gas – no planets, no life. If this factor were slightly larger, the universe would consist only of large black holes. Obviously, no life would be possible in such a universe.

    Another finely tuned constant is the strong nuclear force (the force that holds atoms together). The Sun “burns” by fusing hydrogen (and higher elements) together. When the two hydrogen atoms fuse, 0.7% of the mass of the hydrogen is converted into energy. If the amount of matter converted were slightly smaller—0.6% instead of 0.7%— a proton could not bond to a neutron, and the universe would consist only of hydrogen. With no heavy elements, there would be no rocky planets and no life. If the amount of matter converted were slightly larger—0.8%, fusion would happen so readily and rapidly that no hydrogen would have survived from the Big Bang. Again, there would be no solar systems and no life. The number must lie exactly between 0.6% and 0.8% (Martin Rees, Just Six Numbers).

    —–

    There is a lot more information in Dr. Hugh Ross’s book, “The Creator and the Cosmos.” Please buy it (you can’t have mine – it’s all marked up and worn out). I could go on and on, but suffice it to say that nature shouts out “GOD” and only a fool denies this.

  • Did you miss the whole “WAH WAH, leftists are mean to tebow” article? Like I said, Christians love the persicution complex.

    False equivalence, and you did not respond to the question.

    Goodness, for a supposedly “rational” person, you don’t bother with logic and reason much.

  • “After all, it is only consistent with his “reasoning”.”

    Only for those who are completely clueless about God, which is a pretty good definition of an atheist.

  • “Why would I be burned up about the death of the son of a guy I don’t believe ever exsisted?”

    Sean, you won’t be burned up by the death of the son of a guy you don’t believe in.

    Rather, if you continue in your unrepentent state, then you will wilfully send your own self to hell to burn for all eternity. You will never be burned up. Rather, you would burn unendingly and in ceaseless torment, and if you continue on your current course, then you will choose this fate voluntarily rather than believe. No one here at The American Catholic (I am sure) would ever want that for you.

    As for Earth having been created by God, it was: accretion of stony rocks around a central mass of hydrogen some 4.5 biullion years ago. And the universe was created by God in the Big Bang some 13.73 billion years ago. Atheists hate the big bang because it means that there IS a creation point – the singularity at the beginning – and hence a Creator. Thus they posit that unproven multiverse junk science. They make the mulitverse their god.

    BTW, Psalm 93:1 says: “The LORD is king,* robed with majesty; the LORD is robed, girded with might. The world will surely stand in place, never to be moved.” It doesn’t say the Earth is flat, and furthermore, it’s part of a poem. Poets use poetic license. They don’t write a science text book.

    Also, Job 11:9 says: “It (the depth of God) is longer than the earth in measure, and broader than the sea.” It doesn’t say the sun revolves around the Earth, but even if it did, all of Job is a poem and poems aren’t science text books.

    Read real scientists like Dr. Hugh Ross and Stephen M. Barr.

  • “accretion of stony rocks around a central mass of hydrogen some 4.5 biullion years ago.”

    Please change to:

    “accretion of stony rocks into a solid mass in orbit around a central mass of hydrogen fusion some 4.5 biullion years ago.”

    Details – details – details

  • Did the church teach you reading skills? Here is what I typed: “Also, the bible says the sun revovles around the earth (Psalms 93:1) and that the earth is flat (Job 11:9).” You writing out what I said only proves the point. Thanks pal.

    BUT WAIT, are you saying there are parts of the bible that should NOT be taken seriously? Does that include the “DO NOT EAT SHELFISH” thing?

    “Rather, if you continue in your unrepentent state, then you will wilfully send your own self to hell to burn for all eternity.” But god will do it with love right? Because god is love. FURIOUS LOVE. LOVE YOU TO DEATH!!!!!!!!!!!

  • One thing is for sure… and that, dear Atheists, is how God always works … He got a lot attention. Hate is the result of fear. All that screaming and yelling.. fear … and fear is the opposite of Love… but true Love come only from God through his son Jesus! He loved us first!

  • Sean, I quoted the verse of Sacred Scripture that you cited. They do not state what you claimed they stated.

    As for eating shell fish, please read Acts 10:9-16. Also, please read Mark 7:18-19 where Jesus declared all food clean.

    Also, remember that Jesus does love you to death – His death. See John 3:16-17.

    I have provided you with detailed evidence from science. I have rationally and dispassionately answered your “questions” and rebuted you position with logic and what I know from physics. All you have offered in return is irrational yelling and screaming. There is only one recourse – to invoke our Blessed Mother’s Intercession for you:

    Hail Mary, full of grace.
    Blessed art Thou among women
    And blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus.
    Holy Mary, Mother of God,
    Pray for us sinners
    Now and at the hour of our death.
    Amen!

    You don’t have to go to hell, but that means you have to surrender your free will to Him.

  • “Did the church teach you reading skills? Here is what I typed: “Also, the bible says the sun revovles around the earth (Psalms 93:1) and that the earth is flat (Job 11:9).” You writing out what I said only proves the point. Thanks pal.”

    Dimestore atheists are always such a howl when they attempt to troll a Catholic website. Here is a clue: we are not fundamentalists. Catholics from the time of Christ have been interpreting passages in the Bible in a figurative and not a literal sense. Most atheist trolls are as literalist when it comes to the Bible as any Holy Roller.

    Here is what Saint Augustine wrote on the subject:

    “It not infrequently happens that something about the earth, about the sky, about other elements of this world, about the motion and rotation or even the magnitude and distances of the stars, about definite eclipses of the sun and moon, about the passage of years and seasons, about the nature of animals, of fruits, of stones, and of other such things, may be known with the greatest certainty by reasoning or by experience, even by one who is not a Christian. It is too disgraceful and ruinous, though, and greatly to be avoided, that he [the non-Christian] should hear a Christian speaking so idiotically on these matters, and as if in accord with Christian writings, that he might say that he could scarcely keep from laughing when he saw how totally in error they are. In view of this and in keeping it in mind constantly while dealing with the book of Genesis, I have, insofar as I was able, explained in detail and set forth for consideration the meanings of obscure passages, taking care not to affirm rashly some one meaning to the prejudice of another and perhaps better explanation.

    With the scriptures it is a matter of treating about the faith. For that reason, as I have noted repeatedly, if anyone, not understanding the mode of divine eloquence, should find something about these matters [about the physical universe] in our books, or hear of the same from those books, of such a kind that it seems to be at variance with the perceptions of his own rational faculties, let him believe that these other things are in no way necessary to the admonitions or accounts or predictions of the scriptures.”

  • Donald, the atheist wants a science text book out of the Bible and when he doesn’t get one, he cites that as proof that the Bible is false. But in reality what the atheist is given is God’s love, and that I think is really what he can’t stand: being rescued from the self-imposed hell of an overweening ego and the inferiority complex of a man who the harder he relies on his pride hates himself all the more. For the atheist there is nothing worthwhile with his life because when he dies, that’s it – no eternity. So when an atheist sees a Christian, he can’t stand that sense of hope that he himself refuses to accept for to do so would mean sacrificing his own ego and admitting that without Jesus all his feelings of inferiority are ever so real.

    This isn’t based on science. All the web links and scientific explanations that I provided proves that. The atheist can’t dispute a single point. All he can do is foam at the mouth at something that inwardly he knows is true but outwardly can’t acquiesce to lest he admit he is (Heaven forbid!) wrong. It’s that old ego out of control with an unstoppable inferiority complex. I recognize it well because I can be its victim all too easily, and was for 10 years of alcoholic insanity. The reason why I rejected a 12 step program when the XO on my submarine sent me to one? The steps had God in them and I was going to be damned before I believed in any God. Thus, God allowed me the damnation of my addictions. That’s what it took for me, and I suspect Sean may unhappily require a similar experience.

    🙁

  • @Paul “Sean, I quoted the verse of Sacred Scripture that you cited. They do not state what you claimed they stated.” Because you quoted them backwards.

    Psalm 93:1 says: “The LORD is king, robed with majesty; the LORD is robed, girded with might. The world will surely stand in place, never to be moved.” The reason it has nothing to do with a flat earth is because it says “The world will surely stay in place” as in not move, as in Earth does not move around the sun. Also, Job 11:9 says: “It (the depth of God) is longer than the earth in measure, and broader than the sea.” The reason this dosn’t have to do with the sun revolving around the earth is because this is the flat earth quote. Longer then the earth is impossible because The earth is a sphere, and as such has no starting or ending point that isn’t arbitrarily chosen (my front door for instance.) A flat earth does not have this problem.

    “All you have offered in return is irrational yelling and screaming.” Not yelling or screaming, I’m typing. But while doing so I shake my head at statements like “I have provided you with detailed evidence from science. I have rationally and dispassionately answered your “questions” and rebuted you position with logic” when (as my paragraph above pointed out) you don’t even seem to be reading my posts. But if you read my posts like I’m yelling a screaming, that goes back to the persecution complex.

    But if you must go, answer me one more question. Why would god give me free will, if I must give it up to avoid an eternity of torment? Kinda seems like god is the ultimate troll…

  • Sean,

    God gave you free will so that you can chose love on your own. When you Him, you chose love. He doesn’t want automatons.

    As for the Bible verses, the Bible isn’t a science book. It’s the book of God’s love for humanity. Read what Donald explained.

    I say again: God won’t “send” you to hell. You do that all by yourself when you reject Him.

  • Very good points Don, Christian, Paul & Foxfier. As I indicated above, Mark Shea’s line about Scratch an Atheist & FInd a Fundamentalist is so true. Instead of telling us why there is no God, they instead make fun of Him and tell us how superior they are. This is Freud 101, earlier Foxfier talked about Projection. It has been widely reported that the atheist stars, Hitchens, Dawkins etc all had father and authority issues. The posts of these militant atheist (no matter the thread or website) cry out hate and fear of authority.

    It is kind of like hearing someone talking about an old car their family had; one family member talks about how much they loved the old green family station wagon while the other member says they never had a station wagon. He goes on to say that he hates green and never liked riding in green station wagons because he didn’t like being stuck in back with the family dog and therefore they never had a green family station wagon. Though they will probably not like to hear this; I am sure I am not alone in saying that we all pray for all atheists and hope they see the light and not stay in the very darkness that is eating their soul and taking away their joy.

  • “For the atheist there is nothing worthwhile with his life because when he dies, that’s it – no eternity”. Shows what you know. I have purpose and his name is Caleb B. He is my two year old nephew. His dad is the ginger hair definition of a deadbeet. Everything I do in my life for now is to make his life as great as I can, and to be the father figure he will always need, and to fo the same thing when I have my own kids. Kind of seems like I do have somthing worthwhile in my life. As for the christians, you die, you make it to heaven, then what? You live for eternity with no more purpose.

    Have fun with that

  • I wasn’t going to weigh in on this thread because, honestly, I think Tebow is a mediocre quarterback getting by on a combination of things. That said, when I see things like this along with the wisdom of trolls like SeanB I can’t help but partially root for the Broncos and Tebow to keep on rolling.

  • SeanB, I refer you to my previous post.

  • Sean,

    Heaven be praised for Caleb B. Caleb is one of my favorite Old Testament characters – the one man who believed the children of Israel could take the Promised Land when everyone else said no. And at 80 years of age when finally they made it into the land of Canaan, he wanted the tallest mountain with the largest giants. No wimp of a man was he!

    But what will you do, Sean, if God forbid something happens to Caleb? What is Caleb is no more? Then what is your reason for living? Or better yet, what if when Caleb grows up he becomes a Christian? What will you do then?

    I love my two little children with all my heart. I even love my ex-wife (but I really don’t like her all that much, though I do like her boyfriend – kind of weird). But Jesus is the reason. Jesus – nothing else can compare. And without Him I have nothing. I learned that a long time ago in a 12 step program when I was told that I can’t get sober for my spouse, my kids, my Mom, my priest, my job, my boss, or whatever. I had to come to believe that a Power greater than myself could restore me to sanity. And fortunately that penetrated the lead and concrete surrounding my skull. Of course I had to be beaten into submission – that old powerlessness and unmanageability – first. In my case, God used my addictions to beat me not senseless, but into sense.

  • “As for the christians, you die, you make it to heaven, then what? You live for eternity with no more purpose.”

    Look up Beatific Vision Sean B. Divine love and human love as a reflection of divine love is never ending in Heaven. Our brief spurts of joy here on Earth are but pallid reflections of the true joy in the next life with God who we will see face to face.

  • Maybe this will help Sean B. Chapter 4 of the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous (http://www.aa.org/bigbookonline/en_tableofcnt.cfm) has a most excellent discussion on the topic of God, Atheism and Agnosticism. It is entitled, “To the Agnostic”. Below I have excerpted pertinent paragraphs for the stubbornly agnostic and atheist. As Bill Wilson writes at the end of this chapter, “Who are you to say there is no God.”

    …we have written a book which we believe to be spiritual as well as moral. And it means, of course, that we are going to talk about God. Here difficulty arises with agnostics. Many times we talk to a new man and watch his hope rise as we discuss his alcoholic problems and explain our fellowship. But his face falls when we speak of spiritual matters, especially when we mention God, for we have re-opened a subject which our man thought he had neatly evaded or entirely ignored.

    We know how he feels. We have shared his honest doubt and prejudice. Some of us have been violently anti-religious. To others, the word “God” brought up a particular idea of Him with which someone had tried to impress them during childhood. Perhaps we rejected this particular conception because it seemed inadequate. With that rejection we imagined we had abandoned the God idea entirely. We were bothered with the thought that faith and dependence upon a Power beyond ourselves was somewhat weak, even cowardly. We looked upon this world of warring individuals, warring theological systems, and inexplicable calamity, with deep skepticism. We looked askance at many individuals who claimed to be godly. How could a Supreme Being have anything to do with it all? And who could comprehend a Supreme Being anyhow? Yet, in other moments, we found ourselves thinking, when enchanted by a starlit night, “Who, then, made all this?” There was a feeling of awe and wonder, but it was fleeting and soon lost.

    Yes, we of agnostic temperament have had these thoughts and experiences. Let us make haste to reassure you. We found that as soon as we were able to lay aside prejudice and express even a willingness to believe in a Power greater than ourselves, we commenced to get results, even though it was impossible for any of us to fully define or comprehend that Power, which is God.

    Besides a seeming inability to accept much on faith, we often found ourselves handicapped by obstinacy, sensitiveness, and unreasoning prejudice. Many of us have been so touchy that even casual reference to spiritual things make us bristle with antagonism. This sort of thinking had to be abandoned. Though some of us resisted, we found no great difficulty in casting aside such feelings. Faced with alcoholic destruction, we soon became as open minded on spiritual matters as we had tried to be on other questions. In this respect alcohol was a great persuader. It finally beat us into a state of reasonableness. Sometimes this was a tedious process; we hope no one else will prejudiced for as long as some of us were.

    The reader may still ask why he should believe in a Power greater than himself. We think there are good reasons. Let us have a look at some of them.

    The practical individual of today is a stickler for facts and results. Nevertheless, the twentieth century readily accepts theories of all kinds, provided they are firmly grounded in fact. We have numerous theories, for example, about electricity. Everybody believes them without a murmur of doubt. Why this ready acceptance? Simply because it is impossible to explain what we see, feel, direct, and use, without a reasonable assumption as a starting point.

    Everybody nowadays, believes in scores of assumptions for which there is good evidence, but no perfect visual proof. And does not science demonstrate that visual proof is the weakest proof? It is being constantly revealed, as mankind studies the material world, that outward appearances are not inward reality at all. To illustrate:

    The prosaic steel girder is a mass of electrons whirling around each other at incredible speed. These tiny bodies are governed by precise laws, and these laws hold true throughout the material world, Science tells us so. We have no reason to doubt it. When, however, the perfectly logical assumption is suggested that underneath the material world and life as we see it, there is an All Powerful, Guiding, Creative Intelligence, right there our perverse streak comes to the surface and we laboriously set out to convince ourselves it isn’t so. We read wordy books and indulge in windy arguments, thinking we believe this universe needs no God to explain it. Were our contentions true, it would follow that life originated out of nothing, means nothing, and proceeds nowhere.

    Instead of regarding ourselves as intelligent agents, spearheads of God’s ever advancing Creation, we agnostics and atheists chose to believe that our human intelligence was the last word, the alpha and the omega, the beginning and end of all. Rather vain of us, wasn’t it?

    We, who have traveled this dubious path, beg you to lay aside prejudice, even against organized religion. We have learned that whatever the human frailties of various faiths may be, those faiths have given purpose and direction to millions. People of faith have a logical idea of what life is all about. Actually, we used to have no reasonable conception whatever. We used to amuse ourselves by cynically dissecting spiritual beliefs and practices when we might have observed that many spiritually-minded persons of all races, colors, and creeds were demonstrating a degree of stability, happiness and usefulness which we should have sought ourselves. Instead, we looked at the human defects of these people, and sometimes used their shortcomings as a basis of wholesale condemnation. We talked of intolerance, while we were intolerant ourselves. We missed the reality and the beauty of the forest because we were diverted by the ugliness of some its trees. We never gave the spiritual side of life a fair hearing.

    We asked ourselves this: Are not some of us just as biased and unreasonable about the realm of the spirit as were the ancients about the realm of the material? Even in the present century, American newspapers were afraid to print an account of the Wright brothers’ first successful flight at Kittyhawk. Had not all efforts at flight failed before? Did not Professor Langley’s flying machine go to the bottom of the Potomac River? Was it not true that the best mathematical minds had proved man could never fly? Had not people said God had reserved this privilege to the birds? Only thirty years later the conquest of the air was almost an old story and airplane travel was in full swing.

    But in most fields our generation has witnessed complete liberation in thinking. Show any longshoreman a Sunday supplement describing a proposal to explore the moon by means of a rocket and he will say, “I bet they do it maybe not so long either.” Is not our age characterized by the ease with which we discard old ideas for new, by the complete readiness with which we throw away the theory or gadget which does not work for something new which does?

    We had to ask ourselves why we shouldn’t apply to our human problems this same readiness to change our point of view.

    When we saw others solve their problems by a simple reliance upon the Spirit of the Universe, we had to stop doubting the power of God. Our ideas did not work. But the God idea did.

    The Wright brothers’ almost childish faith that they could build a machine which would fly was the mainspring of their accomplishment. Without that, nothing could have happened. We agnostics and atheists were sticking to the idea that self- sufficiency would solve our problems. When others showed us that “God-sufficiency worked with them, we began to feel like those who had insisted the Wrights would never fly.

    Logic is great stuff. We like it. We still like it. It is not by chance we were given the power to reason, to examine the evidence of our sense, and to draw conclusions. That is one of man’s magnificent attributes. We agnostically inclined would not feel satisfied with a proposal which does not lend itself to reasonable approach and interpretation. Hence we are at pains to tell why we think our present faith is reasonable, why we think it more sane and logical to believe than not to believe, why we say our former thinking was soft and mushy when we threw up our hands in doubt and said, “We don’t know.”

    Imagine life without faith! Were nothing left but pure reason, it wouldn’t be life. But we believed in life of course we did. We could not prove life in the sense that you can prove a straight line is the shortest distance between two points, yet, there it was. Could we still say the whole thing was nothing but a mass of electrons, created out of nothing, meaning nothing, whirling on to a destiny of nothingness? Or course we couldn’t. The electrons themselves seemed more intelligent than that. At least, so the chemist said.

    Hence, we saw that reason isn’t everything. Neither is reason, as most of us use it, entirely dependable, thought it emanate from our best minds. What about people who proved that man could never fly? Yet we had been seeing another kind of flight, a spiritual liberation from this world, people who rose above their problems. They said God made these things possible, and we only smiled. We had seen spiritual release, but liked to tell ourselves it wasn’t true.

    Actually we were fooling ourselves, for deep down in every man, woman, and child, is the fundamental idea of God. It may be obscured by calamity, by pomp, by worship of other things, but in some form or other it is there. For faith in a Power greater than ourselves, and miraculous demonstrations of that power in human lives, are facts as old as man himself.

    We finally saw that faith in some kind of God was a part of our make-up, just as much as the feeling we have for a friend. Sometimes we had to search fearlessly, but He was there. He was as much a fact as we were. We found the Great Reality deep down within us. In the last analysis it is only there that He may be found. It was so with us.

  • The link to the Ace of Spades blog that Paul Zummo provided provides a great take on the stupid anti-Tebow hysteria. And Ace is an atheist. I’m a die-hard Packer fan who has never paid any attention to the Broncos, but the hatred Tebow inspires is making me root for him. (I have to say, though, it’s one thing to pull off a last quarter miracle against the Vikings or the Bears sans Cutler; quite another to do it when you’re up against Brady and the Pats. If the Broncos win this weekend, I really will be tempted to believe God is a Denver fan 🙂

    I was never an atheist, but was indifferent to religion for a long time, so I can understand that, although I give thanks I have returned to the Church. What I don’t get are people who are not content to sleep in on Sunday mornings – they have to troll Catholic blogs, file lawsuits against religious displays and public prayers and do whatever they can to destroy the beliefs of others. In other words, they want everyone to be as negative, miserable, and hopeless as they are – and then they wonder why militant atheists are among the most disliked and mistrusted groups in America.

  • “In other words, they want everyone to be as negative,  miserable, and hopeless as they are – and then they wonder why militant atheists are among the most disliked and mistrusted groups in America.”

    Well said, Donna V.

  • Sean B: Good for you and Caleb. I also have nephews and nieces I love dearly.

    However, in your world view, why does your love matter in the slightest? You and Caleb will both end up as nothing but worm food in the end. The Nazis and those they murdered are all equal now – just dust – so basically it does not matter who was victim and who was victimizer. You find the idea of heaven dull. I find the idea that there is ultimately no justice in the universe much, much worse. (That is not to say that I “know” who is going to heaven or hell, or what heaven or hell will be like. If I knew I would be God. )

    T

  • Oh, and one last thing: Here’s a link to a story about a distinguished physicist who is also a firm Christian (despite the fact that he now suffers from Lou Gehrig’s disease):

    http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/a-lifetime-of-scientific-discovery-has-reinforces-mans-faith-in-god-o53bp1t-135388438.html

    “‘I thank the Lord for what I can still do,’ he said. ‘I look at God as the greatest physicist.’

    A lifetime of scientific discovery has reinforced Koch’s faith in God. He treasures his Lutheran faith, and he taught Bible classes until this year.

    Borucki compared their Kepler project to building a cathedral. They laid in the floor, and it will be up to future generations to erect the walls and roof.”

    Dawkins does not speak for all scientists.

  • SEANB stated, “The reason Tebow wins these games is because of the team itself. The last game was won because the broncos kicker managed to pull out two 50+ yard field goals. The kicker did that, not Tebow. I’m not trying to offened anyone, but calm down. People are allowed to not like someone for a number of reasons, not just because of their religon.”

    Interesting SeanB, because Kyle Orton had the same team and was unable to do anything. I don’t know if you ever watched him play for Florida, but he had his teammates believe they could win. He is the epitome of what being positive can do for a team. The guy is a winner, and I will be the first to admit he is not your protypical QB in the NFL.

    He’s been the QB of a team who has won seven of eight games since taking over as their starting quarterback, turning a team that was foundering at 1-4 under Kyle Orton into an improbable playoff contender at 8-5, atop the AFC West.

    Also did you know that he is the 1st QB in NFL history to engineer 6 4th-quarter comebacks in his first 11 starts?

    Whether you like it or not Tebow is the SWAG factor for why they are winning right now, and some people are sick of hearing a non-prototypical QB winning in this fashion… Again Orton had the same team, and was unable to do what Tebow is doing.

    Will he have a long NFL career… I don’t think so, but he is a great example of what it means to be positive and a leader when all odds are against you.

  • This has been quite a discussion to behold. Regarding Sean’s statement, “As for the christians, you die, you make it to heaven, then what? You live for eternity with no more purpose,” all I can say is there is sure a heckuva lot of purpose to last an eternity in this life, so I wouldn’t downplay what’s in store for us in the next life. One thing’s for sure, I’d much rather not spend an eternity wailing and gnashing my teeth.

    As for Tebow, considering what he’s been able to accomplish so far on mediocre skills, it’ll be interesting to see what he can do should he get better with time. Terry Bradshaw, too, didn’t put up gaudy numbers, but he did lead the Steelers to four Super Bowl wins.

  • Pingback: Bringing Tim Tebow & Others To The Fullness of Truth That Is The Catholic Church | The American Catholic
  • I am amazed that a football player brought so much atheist traffic to The American Catholic. There is a diversity of religious opinion on the site but I’ve never seen so many non-believers comment.

    I have my doubts that the comments reflect an honest desire for intellectual intercourse though. That is a shame, for it is that the writers here speak in good faith that keeps me coming back.

    I sincerely hope that those of you who have found us are interested in more than being unpleasant. It just might be that you can describe what it is like to live without faith and we can describe what it is like to live with purpose.