I wish to have no connection with any ship that does not sail fast; for I intend to go in harm’s way.
Captain John Paul Jones, November 16, 1778
“Resolved, That a swift sailing vessel, to carry ten carriage guns, and a proportionable number of swivels, with eighty men, be fitted, with all possible despatch, for a cruise of three months, and that the commander be instructed to cruize eastward, for intercepting such transports as may be laden with warlike stores and other supplies for our enemies, and for such other purposes as the Congress shall direct.
That a Committee of three be appointed to prepare an estimate of the expence, and lay the same before the Congress, and to contract with proper persons to fit out the vessel.
Resolved, that another vessel be fitted out for the same purposes, and that the said committee report their opinion of a proper vessel, and also an estimate of the expence.”
Continental Congress, October 13, 1775
John Paul Jones– the second best reason to name your son John Paul. 😀
Jones was a self-serving and morally compromised egotist who abandoned his country in search of riches and glory on foreign shores at the end of the Revolution. John Barry’s victory over HMS Atalanta and HMS Trepassy is a far greater story, and among many reasons he is rightfully called the Father of the Navy.
Jones was a self-serving and morally compromised egotist who abandoned his country in search of riches and glory on foreign shores
Completely untrue. Jones took service with the Russians in 1787, four years after the conclusion of the Revolution and after the virtual disbandment of the US Navy. He always maintained his American citizenship and at the time of his death had just been appointed US Consul to treat with the Dey of Algiers for the release of American captives.
Thank you, Donald! Signed, a Nuke Bubblehead Swabby otherwise known as a Squid!!
As Adm. Hyman G. Rickover, the Father of the Nuclear Navy, once said:
“It is necessary for us to learn from others’ mistakes. You will not live long enough to make them all yourself.”
https://www.mottocosmos.com/mottos/hyman-george-rickover-said-mottos-01-2/
Along with Marcus Tullius Cicero, he is one of my heroes, albeit for entirely different reasons. I met him aboard my old submarine when I was standing watch as reactor operator. He tried to reach out his hand to take the scram switch on the Reactor Plant Control Panel to scram. I slapped his hand away and ask the Engineering Officer of the Watch for premission to scram the reactor (obviously as a drill). If I had not slapped the Admiral’s hand away, then I would have been disqualified immediately for failure to control my own panel.
Admiral Rickover was the consummate a$$h01e. And such a person is exactly what we needed to make Naval nuclear power as safe as it is. The Russians never had a Rickover, and as a result they had multiple reactor accidents over decades, never learning from others’ mistakes.
We’ll have to agree to disagree. Jones was a mercenary, pure and simple. He fled Scotland to avoid a murder charge, changed his name, was implicated in another murder over wgaes due, and was well known as a self-promoting schemer in the Continental Navy. He left the United States to serve in the service of a foreign crown. While in Russia, he admitted to paying a 12 year old girl for her services, after having been accused of rape. He maintained his Russian admiral’s rank after he left Russia under that cloud, eventually appearing in that uniform in revolutionary Paris after attempting unsuccessfully to gain a position in the Swedish navy. After various schemes met with rejection and failure, his penury in Paris led to his solicitation of a US consulship, which resulted in his appointment the month before he died as US commisioner and consul to Algiers. But for Teddy Roosevelt and his creation of a founding mythology, Jones would still be lying in a forgotten Paris grave.
We’ll have to agree to disagree. Jones was a mercenary, pure and simple.
No he was not. He served the United States only so long as the United States had a Navy. He always maintained his American citizenship and, as previously noted, was appointed a US Consul prior to his death
He fled Scotland to avoid a murder charge, changed his name, was implicated in another murder over wgaes due
The first man died several weeks after Jones had him flogged for attempting to incite a mutiny. The man involved was from a highly influential Scottish family, and Jones was advised by the local governor to make himself scarce. The second killing was done in self-defense after the man attacked him, once again attempting to incite a mutiny.
He left the United States to serve in the service of a foreign crown.
I have dealt with this. I would note that it was not unusual for career officers to serve in foreign militaries during times of peace for their home nations, and many American officers did so, especially in the nineteenth century.
While in Russia, he admitted to paying a 12 year old girl for her services, after having been accused of rape.
Jones was a victim of Russian court intrigue. He admitted to “frolicking” with the girl after a small cash payment but denied that they had sex. Reprehensible behavior but not rape and has zero to do with his role in the US Navy.
He maintained his Russian admiral’s rank after he left Russia under that cloud, eventually appearing in that uniform in revolutionary Paris after attempting unsuccessfully to gain a position in the Swedish navy.
The Russians awarded him a pension, unlike his own broke nation. The rank came with the pension.
But for Teddy Roosevelt and his creation of a founding mythology, Jones would still be lying in a forgotten Paris grave.
Roosevelt knew a fellow fighter and patriot when he saw one. He was also a good naval historian. His pioneering study of the naval war of 1812 remained the standard work on the subject well into the last century.
:cough:
Well, I look at what Donald says, and note he gives context.
I look at your very first claim of fact in response, and notice it leaves out that the murder charge was for not letting himself be murdered, note that is in keeping with the leaving-out-relevant-information-to-mislead practiced in the first post, and thus value your further claims as hitting on the truth only when it is useful, rather than factual.
Thank you, Donald– given the pattern, I was quite sure that the other claims were at best misleading, but the nasty thing about lying with half-truths is it makes it hard to find the facts.
Remind me to never argue history with Donald! 😀
Wisdom! Let us attend!
It’s funny how Jones, a man of notorious “ungovernable temper” found it necessary to abscond from prosecution. Twice. And the only account of the second murder is Jones’ own, which actually raises more questions than answers, but which leads to two irrefutable facts: he fled (notwithstanding a substantial financial loss), and he changed his name so as not to be discovered. And yes, his reprehensible conduct toward a prepubescent girl, at the age of 42, does have a bearing on whether he is entitled to national accolades. What Jones actually admitted was that she came several times to his house and on each occassion “she lent herself … to do all that a man would want of her.” Hardly a man worthy of emulation.
He served the Continental Navy well, for a time. But so did others.
As for other American officers who served in foreign navies (or armies, for that matter), I am not aware of any who have been elevated to the pantheon of national heroes as he has been. When other veterans of the Continental Navy mustered out and the Navy was disbanded, those veterans remained in America, helping to build the nation and establish a vital merchant marine. Not so the egotistical Jones, who was in it for the glory of Jones alone, and sought that glory in the pay of Russia, until he left there in disgrace, spared a court-martial only by the threats of the French ambassador to the Russians.
There are plenty of genuine American naval heroes, the story of whose lives and service are worthy of perpetuation. Jones’ service in the Continental Navy should be a footnote to naval history, not a foundational story. TR would have served the country better if he had enshrined Preble, or Decatur, or Hull, or Stewart at Annapolis (I omit John Barry only because he is buried in consecrated ground at Old St. Mary’s in Philadelphia), rather than someone who had no patriotic love for the U.S.
Ad Bob Dignan:
De mortuis nil nisi bene dicendum.
he fled (notwithstanding a substantial financial loss), and he changed his name so as not to be discovered.
On the recommendation of the Scottish governor as I have already mentioned. Knowing about the “justice” often meted out by British courts in the 18th century I would have done the same under similar circumstances.
And yes, his reprehensible conduct toward a prepubescent girl, at the age of 42, does have a bearing on whether he is entitled to national accolades.
Not at all. The age of consent in Europe and in the US states was between 10 and 12 during the eighteenth century. That seems barbarous to us, just as much as what we do would seem barbarous to them. Jones had many affairs in his sailor life, but the only time he was ever accused of rape was in Russia and every historian I have read about Jones rejects the accusation as a fabrication by Russian court enemies. In any case we do not remember him because of his sexual morality.
As for other American officers who served in foreign navies (or armies, for that matter), I am not aware of any who have been elevated to the pantheon of national heroes as he has been.
General Chennault who created the Flying Tigers for China was certainly a national hero during his lifetime. Colonel Mickey Marcus, who became the first Israeli General in almost 2000 years and died fighting in their War of Independence, has an honored grave at West Point.
“those veterans remained in America, helping to build the nation and establish a vital merchant marine.”
Veterans of the American Revolution at sea had varied fortunes after the conflict. Many of the sailors spent most of their lives at sea or in foreign ports. Jones dedicated his life to the Navy and left the service only after the Continental Navy was disbanded. America would be without a Navy until 1794, two years after the death of Jones. Jones was too successful in Russia and it was jealous rivals that caused his service to be terminated. His rank and his pension indicate the esteem he was held in by some in the Russian government who regretted his shabby treatment.
Jones was a fascinating man and led a fascinating life. The best biography of him is still that of Samuel Eliot Morrison, John Paul Jones, A Sailor’s Biography (1959) which exploded many myths and gave his life the scholarly treatment it had long need.
LQC-
Nah, let’s trust the personal judgement of a guy who’s been repeatedly caught telling lies of omission!
Concur on Morison’s biography being the best, but we’re drawing different conclusions from the same source. No sale on your age of consent argument. A marriage between a middle aged man and a 12 year old girl would have been unusual, even in the 18th century. A middle aged man using a 12 year old girl for his own gratification outside of marriage would have been cause for social ostracism.
As for veterans of the Revolution, sailors go to sea and spend time in foreign ports. If one was a whaler, one could be away from home for 2-3 years. But one came home. Franklin, Jefferson, and Adams spent years away from the US. They all came home, without having entered (or even entertaining) service to a foreign government. Jones was the only officer of note who had emigrated to America prior to the Revolution who went elsewhere afterwards. (Persons such as Lafayette and Kosciuszko, traveled here and volunteered to fight during the revolution, and returned home afterwards).
Mickey Marcus is buried at West Point because he was eligible to be buried to there, as a graduate who was honorably discharged, not because he was an Israeli general. The comparison with Chennault is even less apt. He had retired from the Army and was on contract in China as an advisor. When the US entered the war he reentered the Army and put his knowledge and experience to use for the US, and came home after the war.
Don’t worry, though. Since Jones wasn’t a slave owner, he’s likely not going to fall from historical grace. But he’ll never be idolized in the is quarter. There are other, and far better heroes of the Continental Navy to emulate.
Lucius Qunctius Cincinnatus – check your comments on Hyman Rickover and get back to me.
Foxfier – lies of omission? Praytell which.
No sale. Not playing that cutesie little game where we all pretend you haven’t been caught lying, repeatedly, right here on this very page. Same way the “agree to disagree” when you found out that Donald doesn’t bull over to your blowhard tactics and let you have the last (false) word didn’t fly.
The reason that JPJ is noted as a role model for the Navy is the attitude– including not playing the stupid reindeer games you clearly favor to attempt to advance your now clearly willful lies. The old joke about the services demonstrating the bravery of their lowly enlisted by the highest commander ordering an E-1 to suicide in interesting ways, and when they got to the sailor he responded by telling the guy to go do something rude to go to hell, is a long standing aspiration.
No wonder you dislike him so strongly.
Feel a strong empathy with the guy that was “murdered” by self defense?
A marriage between a middle aged man and a 12 year old girl would have been unusual, even in the 18th century.
Much more common than in the twentieth century, but it happened even them. Jerry Lee Lewis married his cousin when she was 13 and he was 22. My paternal grandmother was 15 when she gave birth to her first child in 1927. Men, at least in the middle class, were often in their thirties when they married in the eighteenth century with their brides much younger, usually teenagers. The past is a different country.
“A middle aged man using a 12 year old girl for his own gratification outside of marriage would have been cause for social ostracism.”
Sadly that is not the case. Quite young prostitutes were a common feature of life, especially in Europe. There was a reason why all the American colonies had Bastardy laws. The diaries of Samuel Pepys in the seventeenth century paints an unedifying picture of sexual morality and the eighteenth century, if anything, was worse in that regard.
Jones was the only officer of note who had emigrated to America prior to the Revolution who went elsewhere afterwards.
Jones emigrated right before the Revolution to settle his brother’s estate and never really established a home in the country. His true home was always the sea.
Mickey Marcus is buried at West Point because he was eligible to be buried to there, as a graduate who was honorably discharged, not because he was an Israeli general.
True, but he was honored for his service after his death. He even had a somewhat fictionalized star studded movie made about his exploits, Cast a Giant Shadow (1966)
Chennault actually was a complete mercenary for China with his pilots and himself being paid a bonus for each plane they downed. He was given rank in the Chinese Air Force. He rejoined the Army Air Forces after Pearl Harbor, as Jones doubtless would have in 1794 if had still been alive. Chennault did not retire from the Army he resigned in 1937, partially due to ill health and being passed over for promotion but mostly due to intense conflicts with his superiors over the future of air power, conflicts which would continue during his stellar service in China during World War II.
For starters, Foxfier, I have the courage to post under my own name. And no, I have not lied. I have presented a case. In the comments on a blog. With all the limitations that type of forum and the demands of the workday will allow. You are free to agree or disagree, without engaging in an ad hominem attack, if you please. Our host, whom I know to be well-versed in history, and to whom my comments were addressed, has presented his case. I am free to agree or disagree. If you’re interested in every jot and tittle, read the Morison biography, recommended by both of us.
And if our host happens to find himself in Boston, I hope he will contact me, so that we can have a beer and further discuss American history, about which I’m sure we would agree far more than disagree.
And if our host happens to find himself in Boston, I hope he will contact me, so that we can have a beer and further discuss American history, about which I’m sure we would agree far more than disagree.
Mine would be root beer Bob, but I am sure I would enjoy the discussion!
For starters, Foxfier, I have the courage to post under my own name.
Call it “courage” all you wish, oh he who gossips and tells repeated lies of omission about the dead.
Since you already publicly and repeatedly demonstrated the value of your personal honor in this location, I care not a sneeze if you think failure to hand you a fallacious route of attack is dishonorable or cowardly, just as I do not value your personal judgement on JPJ’s character.
You are free to agree or disagree, without engaging in an ad hominem attack, if you please.
Rich, coming from someone who is objecting to the objective fact that he removed the information which might lead someone to draw a conclusion opposite of his own by attempting to call me a coward rather than justifying his objective acts.
You, quite literally, responded to criticism of your systematically incomplete evidence by attacking the person who pointed it out.
If doubling down on the ad hominem against someone you don’t know helps to validate your existence, there’s nothing I can say to help you. Remember me (in a good way) when you approach the altar rail for Holy Communion. And I will do the same for you.
ad hominem
[ˌad ˈhämənəm]
ADJECTIVE
(of an argument or reaction) directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining.
“Your claims have important information removed.”
“You are a coward.”
One of these is an attack on a person.
The other is what I have been saying.
https://theconservativetreehouse.com/blog/2021/10/14/the-california-version-of-the-green-new-deal-and-an-october-16-2020-epa-settlement-with-transportation-is-whats-creating-the-container-shipping-backlog-working-ca-ports-24-7-will-not-help-here/#more-218447
OT, Sundance has a discussion of the source of the supply chain problems.
Pax vobiscum.
I also want to toss in here Larry Thorne:
https://allthatsinteresting.com/larry-thorne
Man who fought in the Finnish Army, The Waffen SS, and the US Army who is now buried in Arlington National cemetary.
Bob Dignan wrote, “Lucius Qunctius Cincinnatus – check your comments on Hyman Rickover and get back to me.”
Did you meet the man? If you know something I don’t and can correct my recollection, then good. Otherwise, let not the memory of the “Kindly Old Gentleman” be impugned.