Father Hunwicke poses two good questions:
Any re-appraisal of the liturgical situation in the Latin Church should begin with an honest acceptance that nobody … almost absolutely nobody … whether Traddy or Trendy … actually wants the Novus Ordo … either its Order or its Calendar..
On both sides, it is disliked, or regarded as of little relevance, and, very widely, largely set aside.
PF
Much the same seems to be true of the current Roman Pontiff.
Bobby Mickens recently wrote: ” … it’s not clear what Francis actually does want. And not just on his birthday, but on many things. … Oh, he’s written and said a lot. An awful lot. But that doesn’t mean he always reveals what he’s really thinking. And, at times, he says things that are hard to square with things he has said and done at oher times. In a word, Jorge Mario Bergoglio is somewhat of an enigma. He rails against clericalism, yet he can also be as clerical as anyone.”
Go here to read the rest. Vatican II, and its changes in the liturgy, were examples of a top-down initiative undertaken with a classic indifference to what the vast bulk of Catholics wanted. There was no groundswell of dissatisfaction with the Tridentine Mass, quite the opposite. As throughout the West in various secular situations, it was an example of the influence of the academy backing unpopular change. The academics within the Church in Pope John XXIII had a perfect foil for their schemes: a saintly man who was no scholar and who was also an elderly man in failing health. The peritii, experts, would dominate the Council, with too many Cardinals and Bishops being puppets, lacking the intellect and/or desire to stand up to changes that were often wrongheaded, malign or simply useless. Vatican II is an example of how not to make change within the Church. Prior Councils had been called to usually deal with a significant challenge to the Church. Vatican II was a Council in search of a mission, and nothing better suited bored academics wishing to implement ivory towers outside of academia. The current misbegotten Papacy of rupture, merely follows in the path blazed by Vatican II in that faithful Catholics are told to go pound sand as their Faith is treated like so much Silly Putty.
Vatican II was a Communist take-over of the Catholic Church. Vatican II has been a catastrophe. It must be abrogated in its entirety.
In my opinion none of the Pope’s since Pius XII should have qualified as saints. Making them saints was a purely political move to lend acclaim to Vatican II.
Particularly with the passage of time, it seems clear that the architects of Vatican II had malign motives, while the vast majority, who were simply useful idiots, went along. There is no debate that the consequences have been disastrous. What’s controversial is what to do next. Personally, I would keep the good and get rid of the bad. I have been to very reverent NO Masses, and I have been to the TLM, which, of course, was also reverent. I believe that is the answer, a return to reverence regardless of what ultimate form the Mass takes.
FOS, you make an excellent point. It seems to me that the return to reverence in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass must begin with a return to catechesis that teaches the Faith as handed down from Christ though the Apostles, emphasizing the Mass as Sacrifice, rather than the different (and heavily Protestant, IMO) understanding handed down since the Second Vatican Council. All too many of those who today call themselves Catholic have basically zero knowledge of what the Church was before 1965, both liturgically and otherwise, and in most cases that is simply because no one teaches it any more. That invisible wall has to come down and the entire scope of Church teaching once again presented. It wouldn’t at all be a bad idea to start with the Baltimore Catechism, regardless of the age of the student. I learned more from twenty hours spent with those books than from eight months of weekly three-hour RCIA meetings.
Not sure how to do that, but as a start, likely the vast majority of my Boomer generation will need to be retired from positions of influence over what is taught in Catholic schools and faith formation classes.
Last Sunday we had a great homily about the Transfiguration and the Eucharist. Then the priest said the Eucharistic Prayer facing the people. It just didn’t make sense. It’s like cell phone talking – staring at a group of people but talking to Someone else.
Here’s a model for what the liturgy of the Mass should be, the Anglican Ordinariate Usage
:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qb46L8ysYsI&t=5719s
(this is the celebration of the 10th anniversary of Anglicorum Coetibus–go to 1hr 36 and watch the amazing 360 degree rotations of the thurifurs. Not all the masses are this ornate, but even in the weekday masses the language–from the Book of Common Prayer–and hymns are beautiful, and the priest is ad orientem. Here’s a sunday mass
:https://ordinariate.net
And yet, we are told Vatican II IS the Magisterium. Not the entire corpus of Sacred tradition in unity with itself. Just Vatican II.
If you don’t accept all of Vatican II, (no mention of all the rest), then you are a schismatic. You must accept, even, the documents on “Religion and Freedom (Dignitatis Humana)”, and “The Church In The Modern World (Gaudium set Spes)”.
Even though they are not in accord with the true Magisterium and even though all evidence proves they are profoundly wrong and heretical, just as Arbp LeFebvre said … we must accept them.
No. It is so blatantly obvious now. It is God’s mercy and justice combined into one: there is now no excuse. They are performing witchcraft incantations before idols in the Vatican Gardens(!), for goodness’ sake! They willingly, proactively shut out the Faithful from Our Lord, endarkened the Holy Sacrifice.
Nah, no excuse any more. They are blatant and their force only grows.
Pope Benedict XVI, shortly before he disappeared, warned of a Church that would burn to the stubble, but that a much smaller, purified Church would emerge from it. I see this. The Vatican II Church is in collapse, merging with CCP-Euro-One World Government. Faithful Catholics are going underground and finding the Faith there.
From one of the commentators, “Simple Simon,” “I suspect that Pope Francis will abrogate the Latin Mass.”
.
Is that even possible at this point?
DJH: My view only, I haven’t got this from any authority or expert, but while he clearly has the canonical authority to do so as holder of the See of Peter, my guess is that he won’t try to abrogate his predecessor’s motu proprio, even after Benedict/Ratzinger goes to his reward, because it would likely bring what arguably is already a de facto schism into an open rebellion. Contrary to many trads whom I respect, I don’t believe even this Pope wants that to happen. To clarify, some trads expound the theory that Francis is only waiting for Benedict’s exit from the worldly stage to suppress the TLM and all religious and priestly orders who use the 1962 Missal and pray the Office under the 1960 rubrics. He may want to do that; in fact, I’m pretty sure he does want to do that. I am not convinced that he actually has the spine to do it, given the chaos that would result.
We shall see.