Francis is the first pope from the Americas, the first of his name, and more than any other pope in recent memory, has dedicated his life and ministry to the poor, the peripheral, and the forgotten. All while leading the Catholic Church on difficult, sometimes controversial issues that not everyone supports. We were granted a rare interview at the Vatican, and spoke to him, in his native Spanish, through a translator, for more than an hour. Not lost in translation was the 87 year old’s warmth, intelligence and conviction. We began by discussing the Church’s first World Children’s Day. Next weekend, Pope Francis will welcome tens of thousands of young people to the Vatican, including refugees of war.
Norah O’Donnell: During World Children’s Day, the U.N. says over a million people will be facing famine in Gaza, many of them children.
Pope Francis (In Spanish/English translation): Not just in Gaza. Think of Ukraine. Many kids from Ukraine come here. You know something? That those children don’t know how to smile? I’ll say something to them (mimics smile)… they have forgotten how to smile. And that is very painful.
Norah O’Donnell: Do you have a message for Vladimir Putin when it comes to Ukraine?
Pope Francis (In Spanish/English translation): Please, warring countries, all of them, stop. Stop the war. You must find a way of negotiating for peace. Strive for peace. A negotiated peace is always better than an endless war.
Norah O’Donnell: What’s happening– in Israel and Gaza, has caused so much division, so much pain around the world. I don’t know if you’ve seen in the United States, big protests on college campuses and growing antisemitism. What would you say about how to change that.
Norah O’Donnell: I know you call for peace. You have called for a cease-fire in many of your sermons. Can you help negotiate peace?
Pope Francis (In Spanish/English translation): (sighs) What I can do is pray. I pray a lot for peace. And also, to suggest, “Please, stop. Negotiate.”
Prayer has been at the center of the pope’s life since he was born Jorge Mario Bergoglio in Argentina, in 1936, into a family of Italian immigrants. Before entering the seminary, Bergoglio worked as a chemist.
His own personal formula is simplicity. He still wears the plain silver cross he wore as the archbishop of Buenos Aires. Though it’s not what Francis wears, but where he lives that set the tone for his papacy, 11 years ago.
Instead of a palace above St. Peter’s Square, he chose the Vatican guest house Casa Santa Marta as his home.
We met him there under a painting of the Virgin Mary. Surrounded by the sacred, Francis has not forsaken his sense of humor, even when discussing serious subjects, like the migrant crisis.
Norah O’Donnell: My grandparents were Catholic. Immigrated from Northern Ireland in the 1930s to the United States, seeking a better life. And I know your family, too, fled fascism. And you have talked about with migrants, many of them children, that you encourage governments to build bridges, not walls.
Pope Francis (In Spanish/English translation): Migration is something that makes a country grow. They say that you Irish migrated and brought the whiskey, and that the Italians migrated and brought the mafia… (laugh) It’s a joke. Don’t take it badly. But, migrants sometimes suffer a lot. They suffer a lot.
Norah O’Donnell: I grew up in Texas, and I don’t know if you’ve heard, but the state of Texas is attempting to shut down a Catholic charity on the border with Mexico that offers undocumented migrants humanitarian assistance. What do you think of that?
Pope Francis (In Spanish/English translation): That is madness. Sheer madness. To close the border and leave them there, that is madness. The migrant has to be received. Thereafter you see how you are going to deal with him. Maybe you have to send him back, I don’t know, but each case ought to be considered humanely. Right?
A few months after becoming pope, Francis went to a small Italian island near Africa, to meet migrants fleeing poverty and war.
Norah O’Donnell: Your first trip as Pope was the Island of Lampedusa, where you talked about suffering. And I was so struck when you talked about the globalization of indifference. What is happening?
Pope Francis (In Spanish/English translation): Do you want me to state it plainly? People wash their hands! There are so many Pontius Pilates on the loose out there… who see what is happening, the wars, the injustice, the crimes… “That’s OK, that’s OK” and wash their hands. It’s indifference. That is what happens when the heart hardens… and becomes indifferent. Please, we have to get our hearts to feel again. We cannot remain indifferent in the face of such human dramas. The globalization of indifference is a very ugly disease. Very ugly.
Pope Francis has not been indifferent to the Church’s most insidious scandal– the rampant sexual abuse of hundreds of thousands of children worldwide, for decades.
Norah O’Donnell: You have done more than anyone to try and reform the Catholic Church and repent for years of unspeakable sexual abuse against children by members of the clergy. But has the church done enough?
Pope Francis (In Spanish/English translation): It must continue to do more. Unfortunately, the tragedy of the abuses is enormous. And against this, an upright conscience and not only to not permit it but to put in place the conditions so that it does not happen.
Norah O’Donnell: You have said zero tolerance.
Pope Francis (In Spanish/English translation): It cannot be tolerated. When there is a case of a religious man or woman who abuses, the full force of the law falls upon them. In this there has been a great deal of progress.
It’s Francis’ capacity for forgiveness and openness that has defined his leadership of the Church’s nearly 1.4 billion Catholics. He put them and the world on notice, during an impromptu press conference on a plane in 2013, when he spoke on the subject of homosexuality.
“If someone is gay,” he said, “and he searches for the Lord and has good will…who am I to judge?”
… and he did not stop there.
Norah O’Donnell: Last year you decided to allow Catholic priests to bless same-sex couples. That’s a big change. Why?
Pope Francis (In Spanish/English translation): No, what I allowed was not to bless the union. That cannot be done because that is not the sacrament. I cannot. The Lord made it that way. But to bless each person, yes. The blessing is for everyone. For everyone. To bless a homosexual-type union, however, goes against the given right, against the law of the Church. But to bless each person, why not? The blessing is for all. Some people were scandalized by this. But why? Everyone! Everyone!
Norah O’Donnell: You have said, “Who am I to judge?” “Homosexuality is not a crime.”
Pope Francis (In Spanish/English translation): No. It is a human fact.
Norah O’Donnell: There are conservative bishops in the United States that oppose your new efforts to revisit teachings and traditions. How do you address their criticism?
Pope Francis (In Spanish/English translation): You used an adjective, “conservative.” That is, conservative is one who clings to something and does not want to see beyond that. It is a suicidal attitude. Because one thing is to take tradition into account, to consider situations from the past, but quite another is to be closed up inside a dogmatic box.
Pope Francis has placed more women in positions of power than any of his predecessors, but he told us he opposes allowing women to be ordained as priests or deacons.
Francis’ devotion to traditional doctrine led one Vatican reporter to note that he’s changed the tune of the Church, but the lyrics essentially remain the same. This frustrates those who want to see him change policy on Roman Catholic priests marrying; contraception, and surrogate motherhood.
Norah O’Donnell: I know women who are cancer survivors who cannot bear children, and they turn to surrogacy. This is against church doctrine.
Pope Francis (In Spanish/English translation): In regard to surrogate motherhood, in the strictest sense of the term, no, it is not authorized. Sometimes surrogacy has become a business, and that is very bad. It is very bad.
Norah O’Donnell: But sometimes for some women it is the only hope.
Pope Francis (In Spanish/English translation): It could be. The other hope is adoption. I would say that in each case the situation should be carefully and clearly considered, consulting medically and then morally as well. I think there is a general rule in these cases, but you have to go into each case in particular to assess the situation, as long as the moral principle is not skirted. But you are right. I want to tell you that I really liked your expression when you told me, “In some cases it is the only chance.” It shows that you feel these things very deeply. Thank you. (smiles)
Norah O’Donnell: I think that’s why so many people– have found hope with you, because you have been more open and accepting perhaps than other previous leaders of the church.
Pope Francis (In Spanish/English translation): You have to be open to everything. The Church is like that: Everyone, everyone, everyone. “That so-and-so is a sinner…?” Me too, I am a sinner. Everyone! The Gospel is for everyone. If the Church places a customs officer at the door, that is no longer the church of Christ. Everyone.
Norah O’Donnell: When you look at the world what gives you hope?
Pope Francis (In Spanish/English translation): Everything. You see tragedies, but you also see so many beautiful things. You see heroic mothers, heroic men, men who have hopes and dreams, women who look to the future. That gives me a lot of hope. People want to live. People forge ahead. And people are fundamentally good. We are all fundamentally good. Yes, there are some rogues and sinners, but the heart itself is good.
This mess cries out for a fisking, but PopeWatch is on a tight schedule. Have at it in the comboxes.
The one who does the fisking is a capeless hero. Such word salad, even in translation. I watched some of it, but the so-called “warmth” doesn’t come through.
The migrant has to be received. Thereafter you see how you are going to deal with him. Maybe you have to send him back, I don’t know, but each case ought to be considered humanely. Right? — -PF
I suppose that collateral damage is ok… as long as it’s not your daughter, auntie, grandfather or wife that’s the victim from an undocumented/ unvetted migrant.
Why is it easier to write checks out of someone else’s account than out of your own?
Here’s the delema for me. If my child was in grave danger of being abducted or killed by a drug cartel that basically owned the “law enforcement” of an entire region, then yes.. I would classify that migrant, child, as a refugee and assist in saving it from harm.
The criminal element is entering and the current system to protect US is overwhelmed and insufficient. When the West is no longer able to support humanitarian efforts abroad because of domestic troubles brought on by open borders then what will Pope Francis say? Will he say that we should of built a wall to secure our interests and the interests of those whom rely upon our prosperity and good will?
I wish that I had the answers and means to solve the problem. Come November I’ll do my part to rid ourselves of a corrupt administration that has weaponized the judicial system and agencies that were originally set up to protect US.
Trump, as exhibit A.
An exercise in hagiography by the usual suspects. I couldn’t even get through the transcript without spoiling my breakfast. Dear Lord, please give us a Catholic pope.
Conservative US bishops are suicidal? Is that a threat? He sounds like a don from Godfathers movies.
Firstly, he has no business commenting on a countries immigration policies- he is out of line.
Secondly, rather than saying the Irish brought the whiskey and Italians brought the Mafia (implying the Irish brought alcoholism and the Italians organised crime) – howzabout he state that both brought Catholicism!
Thirdly, he allows the interviewer to take a swipe at his predecessors I think that’s why so many people– have found hope with you, because you have been more open and accepting perhaps than other previous leaders of the church.….and he does not even correct her! Rather, he basks in the flattery. We have to be open to everyone he says…unless of course if they were conservative, traditional and Catholic. But otherwise, everyone.
Good points: his reiteration of the Churches stance on surrogacy and women priests. But even a liberal would take it with a grain of salt, because he reminds us that he is not “closed inside a dogmatic box ”…ie. flexible and negotiable on all issues.
I still find it difficult to believe we went from St JP2 to Pope Benedict…to PF…in a few decades. Just goes to show how quickly things can decline.
Norah. Go home to Ireland. And take Bergoglio with you. On second thought, I’m not sure I’d wish that for Ireland. And suicidal? I never realized that Arkanside was an issue at the Vatican.
At 5:40, one of the migrants is wearing a Che Guevara shirt. When they tell you who they are, believe them.
It all brings tears to me- and I think of Mary crying at LaSalle – then of course I wish people knew about Mary crying there.
If ms O’Donnell would interview someone who knows another side of this story, wouldn’t that be great.
Pius IX referred to most of this as modernism and he meant it as a pejorative. One simply can not mesh modern transitory cultural behavior with timeless morality successfully. The attempt reflects poorly on both of these people.
I will not watch nor read this interview…why torture myself?
What I find interesting is that they printed the Pope’s firm rejection of same-sex marriage even while obviously trying to frame him as someone who believes that these should be allowed. I will agree that his teaching on blessings the individuals in a union is at the very least confusing and misleading, and of course 60 minutes is treating that as the smoking gun for his support of same-sex unions too. But even amidst that Pope Francis is clear that no, the Church cannot marry two men or two women; it is impossible.
Sometimes I think that Pope Francis was chosen precisely because he was a poor teacher. Both Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI had the ability to be clear and well reasoned in everything that they said. If we only had popes like that, then it would be too easy to believe that the essence of the papacy is choosing a great and well spoken man, especially because there are so many people who didn’t know a pope before John Paul II. Then it would not really be the Holy Spirit preserving the Church directly, but rather great men preserving the Church.
When you have someone like Pope Francis who regularly uses the language and framing of the left, but still is adamant that Church dogma cannot be changed when he is pressed on it, it’s much easier to believe that this is the action of the Holy Spirit.
The Pope might reluctantly admit that dogmas cannot be changed, but he certainly encourages them to be ignored.
Rudolph, this is just how modern Jesuits think. They like riddles. They figure that everyone else is equally interested in teasing out the meaning of seeming paradoxes. Maybe they can function under careful scrutiny, but they should never have the papacy.
It does seem modern Jesuits prefer (or confuse) mystifying riddles to actual Mystery.
Mysteries although impossible for the human mind to completely comprehend outside of Eternity are not puzzling questions.., They’re Truth Itself.
Rudolph, this is just how modern Jesuits think.
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Some years ago, the New Oxford Review published an account by a young man of what happened when he made inquiries about Jesuit formation, with the idea he might have a vocation. He said the Jesuit interviewer spent most of the interview “staring at my crotch” and then asked him how often he masturbated. That’s how Jesuits think.
Madgalene is correct. I refuse to read anything written by that heretic or listen to any of his spoken words. May God Almighty depose and anathematize both him and his cronies from every seat of power in the Church.