Quos Deus vult perdere, prius dementa
From Gaudet Mater Ecclesia, the opening address of Pope John XXIII at the beginning of Vatican II on October 11, 1962:
The opportuneness of holding the Council is, moreover, venerable brothers, another subject which it is useful to propose for your consideration. Namely, in order to render our Joy more complete, we wish to narrate before this great assembly our assessment of the happy circumstances under which the Ecumenical Council commences.
In the daily exercise of our pastoral office, we sometimes have to listen, much to our regret, to voices of persons who, though burning with zeal, are not endowed with too much sense of discretion or measure. In these modern times they can see nothing but prevarication and ruin. They say that our era, in comparison with past eras, is getting worse, and they behave as though they had learned nothing from history, which is, none the less, the teacher of life. They behave as though at the time of former Councils everything was a full triumph for the Christian idea and life and for proper religious liberty.
We feel we must disagree with those prophets of gloom, who are always forecasting disaster, as though the end of the world were at hand.
In the present order of things, Divine Providence is leading us to a new order of human relations which, by men’s own efforts and even beyond their very expectations, are directed toward the fulfilment of God’s superior and inscrutable designs. And everything, even human differences, leads to the greater good of the Church.
Go here to read the rest. The Church probably would have been in for a rough patch over the last sixty years even without Vatican II. However, Vatican II turned a rough patch into a three ring disaster, complete with evil clowns in positions of authority.
One of the problems living in the post Vatican II Church is the historical amnesia that grips both clergy and laity. The Church has a vast history stretching for 20 centuries. We forget how many times the Church has changed to meet some challenge, and we have forgotten what may be changed in the Church and what should not be changed. Vatican II, ironically, has caused the Church to be sealed in amber since the sixties in a sixties mindset, forgetting what came before Vatican II and attempting to ignore all the problems that have beset the Church since Vatican II. The order of the day has been to put on a Vatican II happy face and to babble about how the Church has done just fine since that Council of Councils. The act is threadbare now, and it is time to recognize disturbing reality, as reality always wins in the end.
Religious dogma is timeless. That Christ died for the sins of all is as true now as it was at the time of the Crucifixion. The way that men react to the times in which they live is an ongoing and ever changing kaleidoscope. The intent of Vatican II to throw the windows of the Church open to the modern world, made sure that council would remain anchored to that moment of time, and that as the years passed its decisions would become increasingly irrelevant. Nothing is more ephemeral than the phrase contemporary times, since the times are always changing. To have a religion like the Catholic Church, with a huge body of dogmas, doctrines and teachings amassed over twenty centuries, moor itself to the view of the world taken by senior churchmen and their advisors circa 1958-1965 is simply farcical. Traditionally Catholics have been taught to renounce the World, the Flesh and the Devil, and to embrace the Eternity of God. With Vatican II Eternity was traded for Earthly relevance, and Earthly relevance vanishes as swiftly as water in a desert. Vatican II was doomed from the start due to its attempt to make the Church amenable to the world of over half a century ago.
Vat 1 or Vat 2? I’m confused. Either that or I need to clean my glasses.
II SC!
V2 would have corrected itself by now if it weren’t for homosexuals who aggrandized themselves and not the Lord.
Vatican II: 2500 Bishops Can’t Be Wrong!
The farther away we get from it, more clearly it was disastrous. However, too many people cling to it as if it were life itself. Even some of the better writings of the Council have gotten stale with the passage of time; the bad writings have gone from stale out of the box to downright poison.
Hippies in Pontificals. Picked up and exaggerated by boomers in Pontificals. It probably won’t right itself until the cursed generation (of which I am a part) passes away. But then again, I’m old enough to remember what came before.
The quote on the Vatican website is different. https://www.vatican.va/evangelii-gaudium/en/files/assets/basic-html/page69.html
“We feel we must disagree with those prophets of DOOM, who are always forecasting disaster, as though the end of the world were at hand.”
Some have speculated that he is referring to the 3 Fatima seers after refusing to publicly disclose the 3rd secret as instructed.
The entire premise of Vat2 is the crux of the problem; that the Church must be made relevant to the age, taking the timeless and adhering out to a moment in time. It’s activist proponents are now stuck trying to keep it relevant because the world of 1962 didn’t survive 1968, much less 2025.
A) I don’t think it’s crumbling. Maybe putrefying like the albatross in the Rime of the Ancient Mariner…
B) The New Springtime is a good metaphor – if you look at spring as it really happens, which is a season of mud, late wet useless snow and endless vacillation between winter and false starts of good weather. When you never know when it’s time to plant because you fear the last freeze is not yet behind you. In reality, spring is a schizophrenic season of anxious waiting and false starts. It EXACTLY describes the current state of the Church.
The best thing about Spring is that it eventually ends, in good clement weather. I hope we are nearing the end of the Springtime of the Church!!
“The Emperor has no clothes!” it was the guileless child who was the only one who could say it. And he opened the eyes of the rest!
The doctrines and the dogmas of the Catholic Church will remain for all eternity.
What we are dealing with are prudential judgements of the Vatican which are opinions of the Vatican and can be ignored or countered. But the lust for power at the Vatican has turned into manslaughter of reason and truth.
On Capital punishment, the deterrence of homicide in the first degree is pro-life, on the climate change without any significant data, on illegal invaders as almost canonized victims, on the church faithful a negligent and indifferent (say helpless) parishioners who are being scandalized and being denied their freedom of prayer in the TLM.
What does it take for the Truth?
People are being cheated out of the Truth.
People are being cheated out of Justice.
Interesting observation by John F. Kennedy: the famously defensive words of P. John XXIII, Oct. 11,1962 opening the Council (“…We feel we must disagree with those prophets of doom, who are always forecasting disaster…”), being a doctrinal preemptive strike against the possible warnings of the seers of Fatima (and La Sallette for that matter).
This commenter some time ago finally decided the suppression of the Third Secret is the root cause of the disastrous course of the Church since 1960.
It’s obvious.
It cannot be said that V2 was called to correct a duress or a broad Church-disturbing issue. It was more, for many, either the door a few theologians and wannabees plotted to push open or a just an unplanned moment of opportunity of which to make the most. For a so-called pastoral Council the implementation in practice has gotten pretty selectively rigid, n’est-ce pas?
Any five prelates can swear allegiance to V2 and yet operate differently and not violate the language of the documents.
If only it could be 1958 again. But V2 did happen, it threw open the doors to the Church in the hope of gathering souls, and people just shrugged or left entirely. Just look at the number of religious in 1965 versus today.
Francis only compounded the damage.