The CEO of OceanGate, which is operating the missing Titanic tourist submarine, explains that the company didn’t want to hire any experienced “50 year old white guys” because they weren’t “inspirational.” pic.twitter.com/kxXkhBn7oL
— Catch Up (@CatchUpFeed) June 21, 2023
Submariners get to be 50 years old because they can smell a death trap a mile away. I hope the people aboard the submersible, if they are still alive, can be rescued. When people die if something goes south, you want someone experienced at the helm.
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Yup. Hope they are found alive.
I would not feel comfortable w any driver or pilot that was hired for any reason other than experience. Inspiring minds want to know how their hiring methodology is working out for them. I smell basis for a lawsuit
My first guess is the game controller wasn’t fully charged up and/or ran out of juice, so they couldn’t change direction and cruised off into the depths. The big question is if they were considered missing by 10:45 am, why did they wait until 5 pm to reach out to the Authorities?
Survival prayer: https://www.catholic365.com/article/30038/a-prayer-for-those-onboard-missing-oceangate-sub.html
“Lord, Holy God, you are the author and perfector of life. You are the one who breathes life into our lungs and sustains our life. You have no limit to the resources or miracles available to rescue these individuals. Lord, we pray you give them peace and a sense of your presence. Calm their fears, Almighty and Holy God. Lord, give them wisdom to know how to increase their chances of survival while they wait on rescuers.
God, Eternal Father, you have parted the seas and calmed the storms of life. We pray you part the blurry and murky vision of the rescuers and give them clarity and clear sight. We implore you, Oh Lord, to safely rescue Stockton Rush, Hamish Harding, Shahzada Dawood, Suleman Dawood, and Paul-Henry Nargeolet.”“St. Brendan, patron saint of mariners, sailors, and explorers, intercede for those lost on OceanGate. Obtain from the Lord an ability for them to trust God to allow them to be stronger than this storm. Seek that they will trust God in the darkness and know that at this time, even in the darkness, they are in the Almighty’s hand. Tune their spirit to the music of heaven and somehow, make their obedience count for the Lord. St. Brendan, pray for them.”
“St. Brendan, patron saint of mariners, sailors, and explorers, intercede for those lost on OceanGate. Obtain from the Lord an ability for them to trust God to allow them to be stronger than this storm. Seek that they will trust God in the darkness and know that at this time, even in the darkness, they are in the Almighty’s hand. Tune their spirit to the music of heaven and somehow, make their obedience count for the Lord. St. Brendan, pray for them.”
-Amelia Monroe Carlson
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qv1my-BV_7g
Decoy Voice goes over some of the idiocy in trying to tie this disaster to Elon Musk.
People tend to forget just how complicated society is and how important competence is to keeping complicated things working.
https://www.palladiummag.com/2023/06/01/complex-systems-wont-survive-the-competence-crisis/
You want someone experienced at the helm so people don’t die when something goes south. See, e.g. Sully Sullenberger
You had three passengers and two company officials on the submarine. Both of the officials had a past as pilots. The two company officials were the company president (age 61) and the designated pilot (age 77). The company president’s policy was asinine (and sadly familiar in this day and age), but it doesn’t appear to have been the source of the problem here.
Supposedly, in the event of an electrical failure, the submarine’s electronic clamps would drop the weights which allow it to descend and the ship would bob back up to the top. (No clue if that’s true or not). It’s a matter of record that the portholes are constructed of material which is not certified for pressures you’d encounter below a certain depth (1,300 ft or 1,300 m, I forget) and that the titanium and carbon material which forms the protective bubble around the occupants hasn’t been subject to much stress testing (though it has been subjected to some). Where is LQC?
i am here, Art. Aaron Amick at Sub Brief has a good analysis on this whole thing. He says it better than I could.
https://youtu.be/4dka29FSZac
Carbon fiber was used for the main hull. Titanium was used for the ends. They were sealed with adhesive. Carbon fiber shatters like porcelain when it fails. The CEO said that he would use acoustic sensors to detect the minute sounds of tearing indicative of pending collapse so as to surface immediately. But the time between tearing sounds and catastrophic failure can be in the tens of milliseconds and not minutes.
The CEO used wireless game boy controllers to control the sub. Wireless is always a bad idea when it comes to safety-related. We prohibit use of wireless for safety-related in nuclear power, and any commercial off the shelf digital components must go through a rigorous dedication process per EPRI TR-106439 as mandated by Regulatory Issue Summary RIS 2016-05, and Regulatory Guides 1.152 and 1.168. NEVER use COTS digital without dedicating and qualifying it. And NEVER use wireless digital instrumentation & controls when your life is on the line.
The CEO refused to have his submarine design certified by appropriate maritime authority. That was arrogant. And he failed to conduct appropriate pressure testing (although now the test is done and likely failed).
The issue of 50 year old white submarine sailors like me is important. If the CEO had hired some experienced submariners, then they could have mentored his millennial college graduates and this event could have been prevented. We have had the same problem at Neutrons ‘R Us. My boss and I were once told that we don’t excite the company leadership because we are always quoting US NRC regulations and quality assurance standards, and that the leadership wants to be inspired by new innovative ideas. Well, the US Nuclear Navy tried all those innovative ideas and they were crap:
Reactor with no control rods – MARF – the thing was uncontrollable at low power and in high sea states (it used water filled gadolinium tubes for reactivity control).
Sodium cooled reactor –> the superheater leaked sodium into the steam. Guess what happens when sodium meets water or steam in an enclosed submarine!
Etc., etc., etc.
The CEO of this submerisble was a damn fool and deserve to reap what he has sown. I feel badly for the 4 other people on board whom he deceived with his damn foolishness.
As Donald said, there’s a reason why we submariners live to 50 plus years old.
BTW, do NOT for the good Lord’s sake use carbon fiber for pressure integrity at 4000 feet! Titanium! Use titanium! In spite of their foolishness, the Soviets proved (sometimes fatally) that titanium is the best.
BTW, I forgot to mention the whole thing about backup power (having redundant independent battery supplies) and an air purification system to remove CO2 and other noxious gas buildup in a confined space (O2 supply by itself is insufficient and dangerous – a fire hazard). I also forgot to mention that it’s freaking cold when deeply submerged. Water is at or near freezing. If the hull did not shatter, then they could succumb to coldness (freeze to death) before running our of air. But Aaron Amick in the video linked above explains all these things.
We have had the same problem at Neutrons ‘R Us. My boss and I were once told that we don’t excite the company leadership because we are always quoting US NRC regulations and quality assurance standards, and that the leadership wants to be inspired by new innovative ideas.
Managers seem to come in several varieties: superficial fad chasers, burnouts waiting for retirement; the girlboss who fancies she’s a disciplinarian but cannot differentiate between productive and failing subordinates; and the institutional politician who keeps his budget under control by understaffing units (who then field complaints from other units when tasks are not accomplished). Grace Hopper’s take: the business schools promoted the idea of management when what organizations need is leadership. Scott Adams’ take: technically proficient employees cannot be spared. The people who land in management are actually the people who do nothing well. Another take is that the engineers get replaced by the accountants get replaced by ‘the compliance people’.
The Coast Guard has announced a debris field has been located near the Titanic wreck.
According to a recent press conference the debris are parts of the Titan submersible. Looks like the catastrophic loss of the pressure chamber.
May their souls rest in peace. God is as near at the bottom of the sea. Their poor families.
From the US Naval Institute:
https://news.usni.org/2023/06/22/coast-guard-titan-submersible-suffered-catastrophic-loss-debris-found-near-titanic-wreck
Lord have mercy on the lost souls.
Just so that people understand:
The hull was made of carbon fiber. When it fails, carbon fiber shatters like porcelain. The submersible was going down to 4000 meters.
One foot of water equals 0.433 psi.
4000 meters deep = 13,123.36 feet
13,123.36 feet * 0.433 psi / foot = 5682.41488 psi
Call it 5700 psi or 2.85 tons per square inch.
Please understand what 2.85 tons per square inch does to something as brittle as porcelain. The implosion likely vaporized the bodies. That’s what happens from using an innovative carbon fiber hull that’s never been tested or qualified or certifed by maritime authority, and all designed by millennials who had ZERO submarine experience.
God Almighty does NOT repeal the Laws of Physics for mankind’s foolishness. Do what physics says and you live; defy physics and you die. Period.
“Follows God’s laws and live, ignore them and perish” is just true all around, LCQ. 😉 When it comes the laws of physics, the consequences are very prompt.
In 1953 Admiral Hyman G. Rickover, Father of the Nuclear Navy, wrote the following memo about paper reactors. This applies to paper submersibles with carbon fiber hulls, paper space craft and rockets, paper aircraft, paper petrochemical facilities, paper locomotives carrying toxic chemicals, paper anything. Math always works on paper. If you want to know why we have regulations for these kinds of industries, the reason is simple: people do dumb a$$ stupid things left to their own devices. The example the Bible gives that we are as dumb as sheep is well deserved.
Important decisions relative to the future development of atomic power must frequently be made by people who do not necessarily have an intimate knowledge of the technical aspects of reactors. These people are, nonetheless, interested in what a reactor plant will do, how much it will cost, how long it will take to build, and how long and how well it will operate. When they attempt to learn these things, they become aware of confusion existing in the reactor business. There appears to be unresolved conflict on almost every issue that arises.
I believe that this confusion stems from failure to distinguish between the academic and the practical. These apparent conflicts can usually be explained only when the various aspects of the issue are resolved into their academic and practical components. To aid in this resolution, it is possible to define in a general way those characteristics which distinguish the one from the other.
An academic reactor or reactor plant almost always has the following basic characteristics:
It is simple.
It is small.
It is cheap.
It is light.
It can be built very quickly.
It is very flexible in purpose (“omnibus reactor”)
Very little development is required. It will use mostly “off-the-shelf” components.
The reactor is in the study phase. It is not being built now.
On the other hand, a practical reactor plant can be distinguished by the following characteristics:
It is being built now.
It is behind schedule.
It is requiring an immense amount of development on apparently trivial items. Corrosion, in particular, is a problem.
It is very expensive.
It takes a long time to build because of the engineering development problems.
It is large.
It is heavy.
It is complicated.
The tools of the academic-reactor designer are a piece of paper and a pencil with an eraser. If a mistake is made, it can always be erased and changed. If the practical-reactor designer errs, he wears the mistake around his neck; it cannot be erased. Everyone can see it.
The academic-reactor designer is a dilettante. He has not had to assume any real responsibility in connection with his projects. He is free to luxuriate in elegant ideas, the practical shortcomings of which can be relegated to the category of “mere technical details.” The practical-reactor designer must live with these same technical details. Although recalcitrant and awkward, they must be solved and cannot be put off until tomorrow. Their solutions require man-power, time, and money.
Unfortunately for those who must make far-reaching decisions without the benefit of an intimate knowledge of reactor technology and unfortunately for the interested public, it is much easier to get the academic side of an issue than the practical side. For a large part those involved with the academic reactors have more inclination and time to present their ideas in reports and orally to those who will listen. Since they are innocently unaware of the real but hidden difficulties of their plans, they speak with great facility and confidence. Those involved with practical reactors, humbled by their experiences, speak less and worry more.
Yet it is incumbent on those in high places to make wise decisions, and it is reasonable and important that the public be correctly informed. It is consequently incumbent on all of us to state the facts as forthrightly as possible. Although it is probably impossible to have reactor ideas labeled as “practical” or “academic” by the authors, it is worth while for both the authors and the audience to bear in mind this distinction and to be guided thereby.
H. G. Rickover
Captain, USN
June 5, 1953
Yet it is incumbent on those in high places to make wise decisions
He was reporting to Gen. Eisenhower. His successors are reporting to the cabal around a demented old crook crapping his pants. Decades have moral decay have in the last seven years caught up with us like Hemingway’s bankruptcy – gradually, then suddenly.