Just to keep track of the nonsense that has wrecked our economy and generally made our politicians run around as if their fool heads were on fire, each day I publish the corona virus total death toll in the US based upon the latest data I can find. A single death is an immense tragedy if you love the person. However, we are not talking about love, but rather public policy, which should always involve a sober analysis of risk and cost. Please recall that in a bad normal flu year our death toll in the US can be as high as 90,000.
Note: this will be a total death toll since the beginning of this bad farce, and not a daily toll. As of the beginning of May 7 the death toll is 74,809. May the Perpetual Light shine upon them.
A couple of day ago when advocating Don’s take on CV to a lady in our condo community who was not wearing a mask, while noting I wasn’t wearing one, ran away from me saying that she “followed the scientists not politicians.” Strange behavior in strange times.
MD–your neighbor lady is smart to follow the scientists and not our power-mad politicians. Now, if she would just pick better scientists.
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MD – Don’t you think that wearing a mask in public is just basic courtesy, if nothing else?
Pinky,
That’s all it is. Masks vary in quality so much and are so often worn improperly that their effectiveness is next to nothing, especially compared to just standing further apart. And that’s assuming that the Coronavirus is primarily spread through airborne transmission, which I don’t think we know at this point.
But let me ask you this, if we should wear masks out of basic courtesy to others, is there any point in the future where it would not be a basic courtesy to wear a mask?
Since my employer mandated wearing a mask at work I’ve developed a head cold- it better be coincidence.
Mask are security theater.
I hate security theater.
I had to wear a mask all morning yesterday working at a customer location in Niles, IL. What a great opportunity to smell my own bad breath…and my glasses fogged up every time I exhaled. I think I’d rather get the virus.
Rudolph – A virus may not be airborne but still able to be transmitted through respiratory droplets. That appears to be the case with covid-19. A mask on either party, even a lousy one, will reduce the likelihood of that kind of transmission.
But that’s neither here nor there. As a moral person, I’m obliged to treat other people with compassion, and today that means reassuring them by wearing a mask. There’s no underlying moral point to doing otherwise. There are times when I shouldn’t put other people’s comfort first, like in conversations about the Faith. This isn’t one of those times. It costs me nothing to make another person feel more secure, and there’s no moral mandate to do otherwise. If me wearing a mask made the other person .001% more likely to get infected, I’d be obliged not to. That’s also not the case. People are feeling extraordinary tension these days, and if I can prevent that from increasing, I have to do so.
I think Ernst posted before I got to click “submit”. Let me address his point. I have security theater at the airport. Me pacing around mumbling in Arabic wouldn’t physically harm anyone, and it’s my Constitutional right to do so. But it would be a jerk move.
That should be “I hate security theater”.
But it would be a jerk move.
Not as big a jerk move as the world’s dumbest billionaire mandating masks in public places in Illinois. Twenty three hundred deaths, the vast majority in Cook County, and the vast majority people above 60, and we are being treated as if the Black Death were taking up permanent residence in the Land of Lincoln. Utter madness.
“As a moral person, I’m obliged to treat other people with compassion, and today that means reassuring them by wearing a mask. ”
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I find the masks creepy and sweaty. Outside of a “clean room” environment, surgical theater, dental office, etc, they are a symbol of oppression, much like a burqa.
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The small business owners, the ones whom I am able to frequent, hate them. They make communication difficult. I had to pull down my mask to make my wishes understood. The barista had to pull hers down so my husband understood the price of what we had just ordered.
Don – Are you going to force me to admit that there are worse things in the world than not wearing a mask in public? Fine. I’ll do so. I’d put it on par with public swearing or speeding in parking lots. Are we ok with those things now too? I heard a Democrat once did something worse, so I guess it’s ok.
https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2020/04/commentary-masks-all-covid-19-not-based-sound-data
“There is no scientific evidence they are effective in reducing the risk of SARS-CoV-2 transmission”
My position isn’t based on effectiveness (although there’s a difference between unproven and proven not to) but on courtesy.
“Their use may result in those wearing the masks to relax other distancing efforts because they have a sense of protection”
I’m not going to let myself be less safe because of wearing a mask out of courtesy. Protecting yourself is a matter of personal responsibility whether or not you’re wearing a mask.
“We need to preserve the supply of surgical masks for at-risk healthcare workers.”
I’m not using surgical masks.
If me wearing a mask made the other person .001% more likely to get infected, I’d be obliged not to.
But the argument seems to be that if there is a .001% chance that a mask could prevent someone else from getting infected, then we are obligated to wear them out of “basic courtesy.” See the link that Frank posted which details how cloth masks are unlikely to provide much help.
But I will grant that something like a cloth bandanna might be of some minuscule help. And it might cause other people some peace of mind (though you can just as easily make the argument that setting the status quo of making everyone wear masks will cause unnecessary stress). But let’s grant all that.
My big question is this: When does this situation end? After all, it could also be said that masks can provide some minor protection against spreading diseases like the flu, which are always going to be around. And there is always a slight chance that anyone could be infected asymptotically by some unknown airborne disease. After all, that’s exactly what happened in the US earlier this year with the early spread of the new Coronavirus, and there have been plenty of new diseases over the last few decades.
So what’s the endgame? At what point would people be allowed to not wear masks without you chastising them, and why?
As a moral person, I’m obliged to treat other people with compassion, and today that means reassuring them by wearing a mask.
Except it doesn’t reassure them.
I have watched scared people hiding in their masks– calm down. Because I’m walking around, smiling, not getting close to them but also obviously not terrified.
Which tells the hind-brain that they aren’t going to die.
Supporting the lies they have been told, helping to scare them, is NOT compassionate.
You can do it, with the intention of expressing your love; demanding that others do it, much less attacking them for not doing it, just makes you no better than those obnoxious females that screech at guys for holding the door.
t costs me nothing to make another person feel more secure, and there’s no moral mandate to do otherwise
Great! As it costs you nothing– or at least no cost that you find worth noting– you are free to do so.
Saying, the other hand, “I find an costs involves unworthy of note, and thus someone else must pay them”– that is a jerk move.
For that matter, it’s wrong to conflate someone declining to take an action you favor with someone taking an action which can reasonably be taken as threatening.
They’re not the same.
You are not entitled to other people’s actions, even if you are claiming them in the name of a third party.
As a lady writer I enjoy just put it this morning, the idea of infringing on others has gotten blown way out of proportion.
https://crossoverqueen.wordpress.com/2020/05/07/risks-responsibilities-and-masks/
Are you going to force me to admit that there are worse things in the world than not wearing a mask in public?
Actually Pinky plenty of states have anti-mask laws on the books targeted at the Ku Klux Klan. If people wish to wear masks during this present insanity, fine. However, don’t compel me to do so. I think their utility is vastly overstated, I find breathing in them a pain, and talking through them is an endless joy.
Oh, and in my state the mask edict is completely illegal since Illinois gives governors 30 days emergency authority and the Governor never bothered going to the legislature to get renewed authority. As a lawyer that gripes me. As a citizen that gripes me even more.
As a moral person, I’m obliged to treat other people with compassion, and today that means reassuring them by wearing a mask.
Does such compassion require you to reassure a transgender that they truly are the opposite gender?
Ken – I’m not denying God’s order by wearing a mask.
Rudolph –
“But the argument seems to be that if there is a .001% chance that a mask could prevent someone else from getting infected, then we are obligated to wear them out of “basic courtesy.””
That’s not my argument at all, at least not right now. I’m doing my best to avoid that argument. I’m arguing on the basis of social cohesion, that all other things being equal one shouldn’t be rude to others.
I haven’t seen these videos, but apparently people were posting videos of them licking items in the grocery store. Can we agree that Catholics shouldn’t do that? I don’t see much of a difference between that and not wearing a mask. At least, in most people’s minds, right now, there’s not much of a difference.
I respect and love freedom. I have limited confidence in government. I’m not willing to trade away all my freedoms. But…wearing a mask during a pandemic?
Pinky,
You won’t get any understanding of what people are saying here until you drop this false frame that people who disagree with you are doing it just to be rude.
Your behavior gives me the very strong suspicion that you are saying what you are saying just so that you can stress how superior you are to all the evil Catholics who don’t wear masks. But I haven’t said that until now because I’ve been giving you the benefit of the doubt and I’ve been trying to understand your position.
Could you give everyone else the courtesy of working through what we are saying before attacking our character?
And could you please answer the question I’ve asked twice, namely, what conditions would lead to it being allowable to not wear a mask without violating “basic courtesy”?
“It costs me nothing to make another person feel more secure, and there’s no moral mandate to do otherwise.”
I find the masks threatening and people insisting that I wear one even more threatening. In order to feel less threaten, I demand others, especially Pinky, to stop wearing them. That way, I will feel better, safer and morally vindicated.
(Seriously though, I do have a hard time breathing in the dang things and the thought that I may be forced to wear them for weeks or longer to actually BE stressful.)
That’s not my argument at all, at least not right now. I’m doing my best to avoid that argument. I’m arguing on the basis of social cohesion, that all other things being equal one shouldn’t be rude to others.
You are literally demanding that people do a thing which you admit is irrational and which you have repeatedly and explicitly said you do not wish to justify on a rational basis.
Your reasoning for making this demand is on behalf of a third party, who is scared and in your judgement would be best helped by supporting them in this fear…but not by rational action. By symbolic action which does not give any actual benefit at all.
I’m not willing to trade away all my freedoms. But…wearing a mask during a pandemic?
As you have repeatedly said, you do not wish to argue that the masks are effective. So a disease being all around the world doesn’t have any relevance.
In addition:
You have not suggested trading away any of YOUR freedoms.
You’ve demanded that OTHERS give up their judgement and submit to yours, while repeatedly stressing that it is not rationally supported.
You have demanded that others give up their freedoms, because you do not value their freedoms, and wish to be praised because you say it is for someone else.
Even when it’s repeatedly pointed out that rather than playing along with the scared people, some of us would prefer taking effective actions to fix the problem.
Rudolph – I’m a devout Catholic, and as right-wing as they come. I used to read this blog regularly, although I’ve been away for a while. I expect that we all recognize that rebuking the sinner is a spiritual act of mercy, and I’m bothered by what I perceive as a misplaced defiance. I know how the internet can mess up our perspective, and if I’m the one messed up on this, I’m sorry. What I’m seeing in the real world is a lot of people who are scared, and for the life of me I can’t figure out why the default position on this site would be for doing something that does antagonize others (unless there’s a spiritual priority to it).
I used to read this blog regularly, although I’ve been away for a while.
Good to see you back Pinky!
“What I’m seeing in the real world is a lot of people who are scared, and for the life of me I can’t figure out why the default position on this site would be for doing something that does antagonize others (unless there’s a spiritual priority to it).”
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You are assuming that everyone you meet is scared of the virus, and not wearing a mask is antagonizing. And that might be true in your neck of the woods. It is most certainly NOT true where I live…and I live in Michigan of all places. But there is a lot more to Michigan than just Wayne/Oakland/Macomb Counties (aka “Detroit” if you are not familiar with Michigan. Perhaps you are.) I live quite a ways away from Detroit, and while we do have cases up here (even a few deaths), and yes we do have some frightened people, I know a lot of people who are sick and tired of the “house arrest,” sick and tired of the regulations, who may have already have Covid19, some who did have a verified case of Covid19, and who think this is all government overreach, who hate the masks and will never, ever vote for Gretchen Whitmer again. Not ever.
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So…do I wear a mask under your rules? And offend the people who are annoyed by them? Or do I not wear one, and offend those who do wear them?
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As it is, my husband and I were out and about town, and a there was a “mask drive,” put on the Democratic candidate challenging our local GOP candidate. After some brief discussion on walking paths in the area park and mask usage, she said masks were only for indoor usage (grocery stores, pharmacies) and not for outdoor usage. She was, ironically, wearing a mask–she was cheerfully demonstrating it usage. God bless that woman, but SMH.
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If memory serves, I once asked you to post a little write-up I did about Ember Days. I have fond memories of this site, and I hope I don’t get banned for leaning into this argument pretty hard. There aren’t many good Catholic sites (or many good sites at all) left these days.
Arguments never get anyone banned at this blog!
I agree with everything foxfier said. And since it was said better, I have nothing more to say.
I expect that we all recognize that rebuking the sinner is a spiritual act of mercy, and I’m bothered by what I perceive as a misplaced defiance.
You seriously want to accuse people who do not massively change their behavior to what you feel is more considerate, to a third party, of mortal sin?
Based on your feeling of discomfort, no less?
Venial, but a sin. Not based on my discomfort. but based on making other people believe they’re in danger without any primary reason. If you can’t afford a mask, or there’s some need for you to not wear one, then it’s understandable. If you’re in your car, then you’re not affecting anyone. But if you’re approaching someone’s personal space, a reasonable person would feel wary. (That makes a lot more sense than the first time I typed it, which was “a reasonable person would feel wart”.)
DJH – If the average person isn’t expecting the other guy to be wearing a mask in your area, then my argument collapses, no doubt.
Venial, but a sin.
Then ‘admonish the sinner’ does not apply.
Not based on my discomfort. but based on making other people believe they’re in danger without any primary reason.
I am not the one telling them that they are in mortal danger if other people do not wear masks; it is not a rational fear, and encouraging them in that irrational fear is active participation to re-enforce that fear.
By your own reasoning, wearing masks that are useless would be a venial sin.
But if you’re approaching someone’s personal space, a reasonable person would feel wary.
That’s called assuming the conclusion. A reasonable person is not terrified by a normal human being passing by less than ten feet away.
A rational person would look at the situation, identify that they now feel unsafe, and take steps to protect themselves.
Not demand that others put on a mask which does not protect them, and actually increases health risks for the person wearing it. (As is mentioned in almost every mask article, fiddling with your mask is an infection vector.)
Reasonable:
“Gosh, I’m scared I’ll catch this virus which sometimes results in pneumonia. I am going to wear a mask that will filter out most particles in the air I breath.”
Not reasonable:
“Gosh, I’m scared I’ll catch this virus which sometimes results in pneumonia. Everybody else needs to wear a mask that does nothing to protect me, so I feel better.”