PopeWatch: Who Are They to Judge?

VATICAN-POPE-AUDIENCE

 

 

Fernando Sebastián Aguilar the archbishop emeritus of Pamplona y Tudela was recently named a cardinal by Pope Francis.  He is now facing possible criminal prosecution for remarks that ran afoul of the gay thought police in Spain.

 

A Spanish prosecutor has agreed to investigate Cardinal-elect Fernando Sebastian Aguilar after a national homosexualist group launched a legal action against him last month, accusing him of hate speech for calling homosexuality a “defective way of expressing sexuality.”

Aguilar, recently named as a cardinal-elect by Pope Francis, told the Spanish newspaper Diario Sur January 20 that sex “has a structure and a purpose, which is procreation.”

“A homosexual who can’t achieve procreation is failing,” he said. “Our bodies have many defects. I have high blood pressure, a defect I have to try and correct in whatever way I can.”

Members of Colegas, the homosexual group behind the complaint, say that the Cardinal-elect’s words “clearly incit[e] hate and discrimination,” a crime that they say violates constitutional guarantees.

“Spain is a modern country and a secular one, and these types of declarations from the church have to be punished because [members of the church] are the least qualified to talk about sexual deficiencies, above all because they have hidden cases of child abuse and paedophilia,” Colegas president Antonio Ferre said after filing the complaint.

Go here to Lifesite News to read the rest.  The Cardinal when he made his remarks noted that he does not differ from Pope Francis.

“The Pope is very respectful and holds all people in high esteem but that   doesn’t betray or change the teaching of the church,” he said. 

“It is one thing to be compassionate towards a homosexual person but another   thing to morally justify the practice of homosexuality. All (the pope) is   doing is offering comprehension and compassion and showing a desire to   welcome those who have gone astray.”

PopeWatch believes that Pope Francis thinks that by lowering our voices on hot button issues Catholics can cause their adversaries to rethink their opposition to the teachings of the Church.  PopeWatch fears that the Pope is very wrong on that score and that lowering voices will simply be interpreted as surrender by opponents who do not seek tolerance but domination.

30 Responses to PopeWatch: Who Are They to Judge?

  • This is not about homosexuality. This is about homosexual behavior, sodomy by any other name.This is about using the power of government to impose the swindle that being a person of same sex orientation, or homosexual, is the same as sodomy.
    .
    “”Members of Colegas, the homosexual group behind the complaint, say that the Cardinal-elect’s words “clearly incit[e] hate and discrimination,” a crime that they say violates constitutional guarantees.””
    .
    This is about erasing the virtue of chastity from the public square. This is about deflowering constitutional posterity without their informed consent, literally forming an illegal gulag around the people and forcing them to live under the demands of the vice of sodomy. This is rape of the highest order by the sodomites.
    .
    Pope Benedict XVI also said that homosexual behavior is “disordered.”
    .
    ““Spain is a modern country and a secular one, and these types of declarations from the church have to be punished because [members of the church] are the least qualified to talk about sexual deficiencies, above all because they have hidden cases of child abuse and paedophilia,””
    .
    Criminals automatically self-excommunicate themselves from the Catholic Church when they consent to commit the crime of child-abuse. Therefore, it is slander and perjury in a court of law to bear false witness against the Catholic Church for crimes committed by an ex-communicant of the Church. I can only hope the court in Spain has the wisdom and foresight to put theses liars and cheaters, militant swindlers and despoilers of the virtues of innocence and Justice, virginity and chastity in their place.

  • If Pope Francis only knew how much the people, all persons, including the sodomites, depend upon him to keep our world sane and true, the reason for Georgio Bergoglio’s vocation to the priesthood, his first vocation, Pope Francis would call the sodomites out on their rape of the innocent and holy souls in his care. Perjury, lying in a court of law and the court of public opinion as the sodomites have done to inflict their agenda on innocent, chaste and decent homosexuals calls for Truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help me God.

  • We should pray for Spain. Not so long ago, Spain was a bastion of Catholicsm. The church was reformed from within and no Protestant church ever originated in Spain. Let us American Catholics never forget that the Church was in the present day United States decades before anyone who spoke English was living here. Even after Spain lost her empire 200 years ago, the Church in Spain sent her sons as priests all over Latin America – sometimes to the point that the Church in Latin America became woefully deficient in developing their own vocations.

    The invasion of Napoleon, the Spanish Republic, the Spanish Civil War, these events have severely harmed the Body of Christ in Spain. In present times, many Spaniards thought that electing a leftist like Zapatero would solve their problems and all he did was expand abortion and homosexualism. perhaps Spain, as is the United States, going through a period of chastisement as the Isrealites did when Nebuchadnezzar wrecked their country and marched them off in exile. God punished Nebuchadnezzar in the end.

  • wow good point Mary
    re: “This is not about homosexuality. This is about homosexual behavior, sodomy by any other name.This is about using the power of government to impose the swindle that being a person of same sex orientation, or homosexual, is the same as sodomy.”

    isn’t hate speech directed against persons? speech about actions or behavior is is not criminal is it? hate speech against persons has been called criminal, not speech against behavior

  • The darkness (all around us) does not comprehend the Gospel. Still, the light shines in the darkness and the darkness will never put it out.

    God bless all here.

    God bless all here.

    And, keep the Faith.

  • I would add that this is ultimately about the culture of death. Contraception and homosexuality are dead acts, resulting in nothing and without real purpose. It is where Satan always cleverly and seductively tries to lead us. Not so much the death of our lives, but the death of our conscience and ultimately leaving our souls devoid of life giving love. It is where Christ carried The Cross, to collect our wages for our sins – which is death – and to overcome this death by replacing it with His life abundant. We are called to take up our cross, our evil desires for death, and give them to Christ for Redemption in Life.
    Not charitably trying to inform others of those things that lead to death is akin to a doctor not warning a person about the dangers of drug addiction. We should never stand by while suicide of the soul goes on around us.

  • In the Scriptures there seems to be two quite distinct, but not contradictory, approaches to sin.

    The first is the prophetic. While all the prophets reveal aspects of this way, no one is better than Saint John the Baptist, who with vim and vigor, fire in his belly and fire in his eyes prepares the People of God for the coming of the One Who will baptize with the Holy Spirit and fire.That fire was love. it was the fire of love for God and yes for the sinners he was calling to repentance. His fire came out and set his hearers on fire: to the whole crowd gathered to hear him, he cried out “You brood of vipers….!” One could go into the water of the Jordan in response to quench the fire of judgment or, as it has been from the beginning in the Garden, run away {the more common approach] or the other age old response: control: somehow attempt to control the fire: aka Herod Antipas arresting John. John was arrested by Herod for preaching against the sin which Herod had committed: marrying his brother’s wife, Herodias. A puppet king’s singed conscience, a woman’s wrath and a dancing girl brought the whole thing to a head [no pun intended] and John lost his.

    The other approach or model is that of the Shepherd going after the lost sheep. The Lord Jesus Himself incarnates this model. Although we see it throughout the four gospels, I would point to two stories which reveal this pattern perfectly to us. They are: the woman caught in adultery and the Samaritan woman at the well. In both, we have a despised sinner who has committed grave sins against the sixth commandment, an outcast, and a woman. In one story, the dialogue is brief and to the point, while in the other it is more prolonged and dialogical.

    People often times forget that Jesus and the Pharisees with the stones in their hands, agreed on one thing: that the adulteress had sinned, a very grave sin indeed. The difference was in ‘approach’. The group of Pharisees condemned the sinner and wanted to stone her (and Jesus as well if he got in their way or fell in their trap). The Lord Jesus, the Good Shepherd, saw through both the adulteress’ sins and those of her accusers. Jesus sought to reveal, for the sake of their salvation, that the ones doing the condemning were just as much sinners as the adulteress. To break any commandment is (and still is) to break them all. Jesus despised the sins and loved the sinners. “Let the one without sin cast the first stone” [a hermeneutic for that occasion and for all occasions] Jesus was not saying the woman did not sin grievously; He was saying that all sin and no one is in the position to condemn the person. After a little scribbling in the dirt, and the stones dropping one by one, the woman and Jesus were there, left alone. “Woman where are your accusers? Is there no one left to condemn you?” “No one sir”. “Neither do I (Who am indeed without sin and could) condemn you” He doesn’t say everything is all warm and fuzzy now, “I am ok and you are ok” etc. He doesn’t say, I have to get the Sanhedrin to change the moral laws so that people like you will not be considered sinners. He says, “Go and sin no more”

    In the story of the Samaritan Woman, a great deal of the story is really about faith, however in the course of the dialogue, Jesus asks the woman to go get her husband. He knows full well where she is ‘coming from’. She shamefacedly tells Him she does not have a husband but five. To which Jesus affirms her self-revelation-she has confessed. But again he does not condemn but continues and deepens the dialogue of salvation, until she goes and fetches not a pail for water, but the whole town and tells them how He has told her everything that she has done.

    There are differences in temperament of course that enter into this picture. Also I have to also say, that in absolute frustration and as a last attempt to wake “Jerusalem” up before it was too late, Jesus Himself ‘let the Pharisees and Scribes” have it [See Matthew 23]. Nonetheless we have these two Scriptural models in approaching the sins of the world.
    The real difference comes down to what one is really willing to do for the sake of the Lord, His truth, His gospel. John the Baptist was willing to go to His death for proclaiming the truth. Jesus too was willing to go to His death for witnessing to the Truth, for being the Truth. The difference is this. Jesus took upon Himself the sins of the world. We can say well we cannot do that. He was and is unique. Indeed He was. He alone is the Lamb of God Who takes away the sins of the world, yet He also revealed the way in which we ‘can take upon ourselves the sins of other’: mercy, forgiveness: “Father forgive them they know not what they do” Pray for those who persecute you etc

    In the interest of transparency, my personality makes me ‘more prophetic’. However, I am increasingly becoming aware that the deep existential ignorance, the eclipse of sin because of the even deeper and worse eclipse of God in the world today, calls us to take the second path-model, that of Christ Himself. More and more I believe that while proclaiming the truth of the Gospel, including the truth in these ‘unpopular’ issues of our times, the real task of the Church is to pray for an outpouring of the Holy Spirit upon society so that the Spirit will convict people of their sin, both on the individual level and societal level.

    Neither Prophet nor Shepherd are accepted by the society at large. People will flee from both or attempt to control both-and the biggest control is ‘death’. We really need to become more and more aware of what is going on around us.

  • “Not charitably trying to inform others of those things that lead to death is akin to a doctor not warning a person about the dangers of drug addiction. We should never stand by while suicide of the soul goes on around us.” Thank you Kevin.
    I know. I wonder every day what else I can say or do. He knows where i am on this, that we ( his father and I) are constantly in prayer but we see no movement so far. We have gotten worn down and haven’t actually warned for a long time even though we work in the same office day in and day out. I don’t think he will think we are “evolving” to his side but it is terrible thing to live with contemplating the awesome peril of final impenitence.

  • Just as Jesus said,we are sheep and need a shepherd to lead us. For the last
    thirty or so years we have lost our shepherds to the world and now many have
    gone by the wayside. Pretty soon due to this neglect we may all be subject to jail and fines for our belief. I am sure we are near this now.

  • Rita

    Yet within this year two of these shepherds will be proclaimed saints of God in an exercise of papal infallibility. I could not disagree with you more.

  • Anzlyne,
    I understand exactly how you feel. I guess most of us have the situation in our families and friends who are living truly degrading lives. I try to remember that even Jesus was rejected, so why not me in His name? I pray, and pray and pray. I don’t argue (anymore) but they know clearly where I stand. Once in awhile a chiding reminder. Now in the case of one active homosexual, our relationship has truly improved and I have seen some movement in the right direction. No miracle, but hope. It is hard to put it in His hands, but we must. Just do what we can and you are right, it can be so hard to want so much and not see results. God bless.

  • “lost our shepherds to the world and now many have
    gone by the wayside.” – Rita if you are talking about many of our priests and bishops I agree that many have been lost “to the world” and “by the wayside”.
    I agree that the lack of leadership in local areas, dioceses has made us all more vulnerable; only few leaders speaking up in defense of the faith, only minimal local efforts in educating adult Catholics in the the whys and wherefores of their faith; failing to equip people to deal with the whirlwind of the world.. and now the secular world is in the catbird seat, calling the shots on morality– even the UN telling the Church to review it’s teaching on abortion and contraception with an eye to modification to suit the world’s standards. Because of this lack of leadership, now teaching “Catholic” equates to many to teaching hate. Yes I also think a time may come soon when loyal Catholics may pay fines and or do jail time.

  • Thank you Kevin. I will pray for you, please pray for us

  • Wow, good point Anzlyne.
    .
    “isn’t hate speech directed against persons? speech about actions or behavior is is not criminal is it? hate speech against persons has been called criminal, not speech against behavior.”
    Well said, Anzlyne. Exactly what the church and the priests need to make clear. The fact that behavior, the act of sodomy, is not about the person, but about his free will consent to abuse and deny his immortal soul. The church must insist upon this fact in the courts and in the media.

  • Pope watch is exactly right:
    “PopeWatch believes that Pope Francis thinks that by lowering our voices on hot button issues Catholics can cause their adversaries to rethink their opposition to the teachings of the Church. PopeWatch fears that the Pope is very wrong on that score and that lowering voices will simply be interpreted as surrender by opponents who do not seek tolerance but domination.”
    If the leaders of the Catholic Church do not proudly and clearly embrace its moral teachings -even “insist” on them – we will be steamrolled. Pope Francis isn’t going to change the Church’s moral doctrines, but it appears he is going to act as though they just aren’t that important. That’s not going to work.

  • If the leaders of the Catholic Church do not proudly and clearly embrace its moral teachings -even “insist” on them – we will be steamrolled.
    Pope Francis isn’t going to change the Church’s moral doctrines, but it appears he is going to act as though they just aren’t that important. That’s not going to work. –

    Don, I really think this is an extremely important topic for discussion so thanks for returning to this thread. My hope and current view is that Pope Francis wants to navigate a different approach on how we talk about some of these subjects to better encourage conversion without making them seem less important.

    Unfortunately I believe the attempt to steamroll us is already long underway. The Enemy, and I mean enemy, is making it more and more difficult to talk about homosexuality in a truthful way. All Christians, not just the Bishops, need to wake up to the reality that we are under serious attack and we had better start fighting back while it is still legal or safe to do so. And actually, in some places it is not safe. Sadly, I am much too late to be called an alarmist.

  • Whether our spiritual battle is waged in a “prophetic” way. Or as “shepherds “going after their sheep – we are going to have to not be afraid to draw clear lines, to speak and live knowing that we Are called to judge behaviors and choose against sin. Even FOX news is misrepresenting the truth about the “Aizona ” law. Personally I think a baker could refuse a person a cake if he didn’t like the cut of his jib. But most balersIMO who had an order for a birthday cake, would bake the cake . But the same customer order one for his gay wedding and the bakeri could rightly say no I don’t want to aid and abet that! Same person ordering cake. Person is not hated . Action or event is what the baker does not want.
    Once again it is not hating the person. I would gladly have cake and tea with him. But I want no part of his celebration of Serious sin – the kind that ultimately makes foundational structures of society fall away.
    The phony ideas floated by B Hume on (Catholic) megyn Kelly show that if this law is passed Drs could refuse to treat patients cause they are gay, is solar to ideas pushed by Anderson Cooper The media is against this law and poor gov. Brewer – cornered.

  • I know of a doctor who refused to heal an American vet of the Korean war because she was Chinese. So, here, before a contract is signed or an agreement made about goods and services, the vendor is free to refuse to make a contract or agreement with an unnatural marriage proponent or even to accept a sodomist’s money. Doctor’s offices routinely refuse to accept money or payment from the hands of a patient of herpes or syphilis after treatment, quarantining the disease.
    .
    Ostracizing sodomy and/or unnatural marriage is preferable and legal.

  • If we believe as Catholics that homosexual behaviour is a distorted sense of identity. Then what does it matter how vocal the Pope is or how persistent he is about spreading the message that homosexual relationships are contrary to Gods law.

    In other words, if you told a person that they can’t put sand in their car, because it will ruin the car, you can go blue in the face and they won’t listen. They will only believe you when the car stops working.

    So why attack the Pope if he chooses to emphasis the positives, and stop talking to a brick wall. As long as the belief of the Church and the doctrine on the morality is in keeping to the Truth, then In my opinion, there is no point beating the drum, that many refuse to listen to…

    And seriously, the bark in Spain is scarier than the actual bite. What will they prosecute the good Cardinal on? Give it a few weeks and the hype will disappear into hot air.

  • EZ, It does matter because so many people, especially the young now not so young, do not bother to understand and outright reject the truth we teach on human sexuality. Mostly because we don’t teach it – we only say “the rules.” As a result homosexuality as well as all kinds of sexual deviancy is growing with disastrous spiritual, physical and societal consequences. I am not suggesting that Pope Francis is taking the wrong approach, as he well may be softening the opposition and unclogging a few ears. The Good News must be heard if it is to be accepted and some will listen some will not. We just have to find the best way to deliver it.

    I am not so hopeful about everything just blowing away. Who would have believed 50 years ago abortion on demand? Who would believe 20 years ago “gay marriage?” And so on. We have witnessed years of regression into the darkness of inhuman behavior over our lifetime. So we push around a bishop one day, next time we maul him a bit. May be not, but may be so.

  • 11/28/2005: The Vatican newspaper said that homosexuality risked “destabilizing people and society”, had no social or moral value and could never match the importance of the relationship between a man and a woman.
    .
    Gay marriage is solely about the gays getting “married.” This narcissism is a main difference with valid marriage.
    .
    Sodomy is solely for and about those engaging in it (mutual masturbation). It is illicit, sterile, and separated from God. It denies God as Creator. It denies the purpose of God’s creation and His participation with us in the Creation of children. To put forth this foul abomination as equivalent to fecund marriage denies the barrenness of sodomy, which likely is the goal of all this immoral nonsense.

  • I think in approaching the human person correctly there must be a balance between the intellect and the heart. As correct as our moral teaching is, much of it has been presented to the intellect and less so to the heart – or at least this is the dominant perception. As a result the Church seems far removed from the lives of many. Many a good priest operate in this manner and they too seem removed from everyday life and struggle. Upon reflection, I think this may be the point Pope Francis is making. I also think the perception is a Church that lacks empathy. That is may be grotesquely unfair does not change what people perceive and I think there is a grain of truth to it. Too many of our priests and bishops are “removed” from the everyday struggle of life, failing to engage people on the streets as Mother Teresa did. I’ve often thought many to be out of touch with the real lives of their real parishioners, orthodox parishioners as well. And this, too, Pope Francis may be taking on.

  • Kevin, you make a great point. I think parents are responsible for teaching their children till they are blue on the face. It’s the failure of parents if children do not have a true understanding of human sexuality.

    The Pope, I hope, is unclogging a few ears with his approach.

    I think the media is the devils advocate. Surprise! I don’t think anyone in Spain will prosecute the good Cardinal.

    By the way, when my brother was at school he did an exchange trip to Spain to another Opus Dei school (we went to an Opus Dei school here). Spain was mild back then nearly 25 years ago.

    The same programme doesn’t go to Spain anymore because today the temptations in Spain are too big. They send them to Uruguay. Yep! Spain definitely isn’t the Catholic country it once was.

  • Ez, I couldn’t agree more. Parents and their family are called to be the domestic Church, where children grow in the love of God. The problem is so many of my generation of parents are so poorly prepared because while they know the teaching, they never took the time to understand it. The younger generation of parents are even more vague in what they know.
    I was very blessed to have truly saintly parents. Their examples of self sacrifice, humility, irretrievable love and faith were exceptional and yet, as far as direct teaching to their children they were less attentive. I believe it is because they assumed their children would be raised in the kind of Catholic culture (Catholic ghetto) they grew up in, where parish life was central and the parish priest a part of everyday life. Most of the people on the block were Catholic, but even those that were Jewish or otherwise, expected “Catholic” behavior from them. Many guiding hands, even to some extent the school system, was there to reinforce your values.

    By the 1960s and suburban life this had all changed. The neighborhood was no longer identified by values but by location, and Church was no longer central but simply part of the mix of life. Assuming parents believed that schools would continue to reinforce their values – when it was often the opposite and learning the faith moved further and further to the periphery of priorities. Throw in TV, the sexual devolution, regressive progressivism and the brave new world was upon us. And yet, parents like mine were slow, very slow to realize the change taking place and never wanted to believe their children would be involved in any of it. They never wanted to believe the world could be a bad place where they lived.

    Back in my writing days I had written an article on abandonment. I never published it because I thought it would hurt my parents. Basically my point was that many parents had unwittingly abandoned their children to forces, some evil forces, outside of the home. Children spent more time at school and with music and TV than they did with their parents. While parents assumed these mentors were benign at worse, most actually believed they were basically supportive of good living. So they went merrily along not knowing what was becoming of their children’s hearts and minds. Unfortunately it continues to this day and we moved along the same post-Christian world Europe is ahead of us on.

  • .” It’s the failure of parents if children do not have a true understanding of human sexuality. ”
    Probably generally true. There’s a lot of talk about best practices –approaching through the intellect, thru the emotions.
    Parents, like the historic Church have used a multi media approach -to the Faith — books catechesis sermons stained glass windows music individual prayer family prayer.
    Unfortunately We have followed the “who are we to judge” template. Sins are not depicted in stained glass windows. No we have pictures of the Good. Sins are not depicted on sermons.
    In our small town with known homosexual teachers we as parents kept mostly quiet, non judgmental really out of put own naïveté Keeping the issue at a distance thinking it would never affect us our our family or any of our friends we. Never made a frontal attack on evil. (not to attack a person but to make it known that such behavior is seriously wrong and Not Accepted)
    It would have been better to make more of an effort against it following the deuteronomic idea of not tolerating evil in our midst.
    it is great to emphasize the positive but we also have to draw firm lines in families and in Church.

  • Kevin, your description of the shift in our culture is excellent.

    As is your comment Anzlyne.

    I understand what you mean, Kevin, when you say that generations of past did not think the emerging culture that their children were adopting was doing them any harm. You are so right when you say it is subliminal. It is so subtle and toxic, it should be feared.

    My dad says to me today, that he doesn’t envy my generation of parents raising our children. The temptations, although big now, are only going to get greater as our children get older. He always says to me and my siblings “watch your children”, “talk to them”.

    I even heard him tell my brother who has 2 boys under the age of 5, that he has to be watchful of any inner messages they are picking up, and to re-inforce to them good, strong, christian and noble male characteristics as they grow. To not assume they will know.

    It’s sad that our generation raising children fear more sinister dangers. Where in the past it was primarily about physical safety (and yes it still is), today its about the dangers of a rotten thinking in our culture- that boys are really girls, that Jack’s become Judys when they hit 16. And that boys can “marry” boys, that girls can “marry” girls. It’s sick! Spain sue me!

    I think Im hypersensitive about it today because the Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras is on tonight in the city of Sydney. And to mock God, its always coincides with the start of Lent. My husband and I wanted to take our children to the dinosaur exhibition at the Museum in the city today, but I don’t want them being seduced by the rainbow flags plastered everywhere in town. Or walk past a drag queen in glitter. My girls love glitter!

    I always tell my little 6 and 2 year old girls, who love princess stories, that girls marry boys and boys marry girls. I purposefully put the norm in their head at a young age. I cant believe I think I have to do this, but I know I should keep a watchful eye at the innocent media they watch. So they know there are rules to human sexuality and it is not, as society says, ok to do what you “feel” is right. After all the “feel” comes from a poorly formed understanding of human sexuality, where the correct understanding was not talked about from a young age. That parents thought their children were getting from the television. When in actual fact they were fed the exact opposite.

    Call me simple minded.

  • EZ

    You are by no means ‘simple minded’. You are really attempting to live your vocation as a Catholic woman, wife and mother.

  • Thank you Botolph.

    We all are, as Catholics, travelling a steep hill.

    God Bless you Botolph.

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