This sounds like a myth concocted by opponents of the Iraq war, but it is too juicy not to post. Chirac was an opponent of the Iraq war, which was small surprise as France has opposed most US foreign policy initiatives since its support for the US and its allies liberating France in 1944. Bush preaching badly understood End Times theology to the ultimate cynic Chirac is an irresistible historical image.
Dismaying and Amusing if True
- Donald R. McClarey
Donald R. McClarey
Cradle Catholic. Active in the pro-life movement since 1973. Father of three, one in Heaven, and happily married for 43 years. Small town lawyer and amateur historian. Former president of the board of directors of the local crisis pregnancy center for a decade.
chuckles Sounds VERY typical of a Protestant. It’s not the first I’ve ever heard of that variety of nonsense. I dare say it won’t be the last. At least he didn’t try quoting the Left Behind series…..
“Sounds VERY typical of a Protestant.”
Sigh. Romans are as ignorant of Protestantism and Protestants are ignorant of Roman Catholicism.
George W. Bush was born and raised as an Episcopalian and converted to Methodism on marriage and recovery from alcoholism. While he met with Billy Graham and counted him as an influence in his religious life, he has stated publicly that he is not a Biblical literalist.
Now for those who obviously do NOT understand that Protestantism is NOT monolithic, there is a great variation of views on eschatology between Calvinists, Arminians, between the Pentecostal and Baptist dispensationalist and the Prebyterian and Reformed amillennialists. It is only in the Dispensationalist view popularized by John Darby (a former Anglican priest in the 19th century), CI Scofield in the early 20th century and Henry Morris, a literal young Earth creationist in the late 20th century that held Gomer and Magog represent countries in the north – Germany and Russia, with Mesach being Moscow. This all comes from Ezekiel chapter 38. There was never any dispensationalist correlation with Iraq and Afghanistan. All this stuff is explained at length in the CI Scofield and Henry Morris Study Bibles (in my collection). I simply, however, don’t have either the time or the energy to go into the minutae of this eschatology. Suffice it to say that Dispensationalist (Baptists and Pentecostals) have made a science of such stuff. But Presbyterians and Reformed (Calvinists) and Methodists (Arminians) disagree. The Lutheran view is very different because it presumes the Pope is the anti-Christ (or it used to).
Anyways, Bush was a Methodist and by his own statement took a non-literal view of the Bible. So I would wager that the story above is apocryphal.
PS, please do some research first into the differing Protestant eschatology viewpoints. BTW, I was born and raised Pentecostal. So, I am very, very familiar with this stuff and since my conversion to Catholicism have avoided this in discussions with Dispensationalists.
It’s a concoction.
Yeah Left Behind annoys/amuses several of us in many protestant branches.
chuckles Sounds VERY typical of a Protestant.
It doesn’t.
Russia isn’t Magog. No valid Russian historical source. such as the Primary Chronicle, claims Magog as an ancestor. The real ancestors of the Russians were a group of Swedish Vikings called the Rus. They migrated to the area that was soon to be called after them, and took over the city of Kiev as their capital. The new nation became known as Kievian Rus.
To followup on what I wrote above, and to confirm and agree with Art Deco, there are four main views among the various Protestant denominations about eschatology, and the subject is so complicated that I doubt former President Bush gave it much thought.
Amillennialism
Postmillennialism
Historic premillennialism
Dispensationalism
Now at the Logos Bible Software web site, the following description of these four views is provided. Yes, I copied and pasted instead of providing a link because I want to focus on just the four views without the reader getting lost in scrolling down the page. I have been surprised about a few things. While Calvinist RC Sproul was Amillennial, Calvinist John MacArthur who was a close friend of Sproul prior to Sproul’s death is a Dispensationalist. I found that very interesting and odd. Otherwise, the preaching of those two men is usually very consistent one with the other. Martin Luthur was an Amillennialist too. St. Irenaeus and modern Protestant Apologist Wayne Grudem are Premillennialist. There are other examples below. I am familiar with many of the Protestant names because I have their commentaries and Study Bibles in my collection. After Father George C. Haydock’s Catholic Study Bible of 1859, Catholic Biblical scholarship fell into the toilet. Too dismissive of the miracles of the Bible, too much liberal infestation. The Navarre Study Bible series and the Didache Study Bible are ok, but Evangelical, Pentecostal and Reformed / Calvinist Study Bibles take a very high view of the Scriptures, believing in the plain language in front of their eyes. Often they make mistakes in taking thing too literally, but they are never dismissive as modern Catholic “scholars” are. And of course they get the Sacraments all wrong. Thankfully, the Orthodox Study Bible I have in my collection from the Antciochan Orthodox Church doesn’t take the Catholic road to confusion, and it gets the Sacraments right. Sorry, guys; we Catholics have dropped the ball big time here. I don’t trust any modern Catholic Biblical scholarship, and the Catholic NABRE is a piece of freaking crap. Go with the RSV CE, the ESV CE or the Douay-Rheims, and burn your copy of the NABRE.
Amillenialism
Amillennialism’s name is a clear giveaway to its defining mark: “a-millennialism” literally means there is no literal, open, visible, 1,000-year reign of Christ on earth. Instead, the reign of Christ is understood in a fundamentally different way.
Amillennialism does not have a specific antichrist as advocated in something like the Left Behind series. However, there may be a man of sin (2 Thess 2:1–12), who could fit some kind of antichrist definition or archetype in the modern understanding of the term.
The Reign of Christ
Amillennial thinkers note rightly that the 1,000-year language describing the millennial period in Revelation 20 can be taken figuratively. So the thousand-year period isn’t a specific thousand-year cycle on an actual calendar. Instead, with his resurrection and ascension, Christ began his reign. He presently rules on Earth (the millennial age) through his people. And he will return physically, at any moment, to usher in heaven on earth.
The Role of Satan
Satan’s influence has been diminished because he has been bound by Christ. Satan himself is not presently exerting influence over the world.
Israel and the Church
There is not a stark contrast between Israel and the Church. Rather, the Church is spiritual Israel, because Christ is true Israel. This does not mean that the Church has replaced Israel but instead that the Church is the fulfillment of God’s promises to Abraham that his offspring (Jesus) would bless all nations (people groups).
Key Passages: John 5:28–29; Romans 8:17–23; 2 Peter 3:3–14; 2 Thessalonians 1:5–10.3
Notable Representatives: Augustine of Hippo, Martin Luther, John Calvin, Louis Berkhof, C. S. Lewis, R. C. Sproul.
Postmillennialism
Early in American history, postmillennialism was, in some sense, an American eschatology. Postmillennialism is a difficult system to quantify, at least in part because postmillennial thinkers tend to disagree about the details. We will take a look at the broad points of agreement here.4
The Reign of Christ
Postmillennialists differ as to whether the reign of Christ is 1,000 years or simply a long period of time. At its core, the distinctive of postmillennial thought is the ever-expanding progress of the gospel until the world becomes markedly Christian. Then, Christ returns. The millennial age is ushered in by the unrelenting advance of the gospel.
The Role of Satan
There is no definitive position on the role of Satan within postmillennial thought. Some postmillennial theologians argue that Satan was bound by Jesus (similar to amillennialism), while others would argue it remains a future event (in agreement with premillennialism).
Israel and the Church
The postmillennial position agrees with amillennialism: the Church is the fulfillment of Israel. The Church is spiritual Israel.
Key Passages: Psalm 2; Isaiah 2:2–4; Matthew 13; 28; John 12.
Notable Representatives: Jonathan Edwards, B. B. Warfield, Greg Bahnsen, Loraine Boettner, Kenneth Gentry, Peter Leithart.5
Premillennialism
Premillennialism is often assumed to be the default view of Christians in America. This is understandable—it is presently the most common view of eschatology held by American evangelicals. While evangelicals are most familiar with the primary framework of premillennial thought, many are unaware that premillennialism has two major divisions: historic premillennialism (the traditional form, often called simply “premillennialism”) and dispensational premillennialism (usually called “dispensationalism”).
Historic premillennialism
The Reign of Christ
Christ will return physically and visibly in order to usher in the millennial reign—but historic premillennialists disagree whether the reign of Christ will be a literal thousand years or just a long period of time.
The Role of Satan
Satan is currently at work in the world, influencing affairs and deceiving the nations. At the return of Christ, Satan will be bound for the duration of the millennial age.
Israel and the Church
Historic premillennialism proposes that the Church is the spiritual fulfillment of Israel in a manner that is very similar to amillennialism and postmillennialism.
Key Passages: This position shares many of the same key passages as amillennialism and postmillennialism. The distinction between the systems has to do with interpretation. Premillennialism places a heavier emphasis on rigidly literal interpretations of key passages than either amillennialism or postmillennialism does.
Notable Representatives: Irenaeus, Wayne Grudem, Robert Gundry, Ben Witherington III, Craig Blomberg.
Dispensationalism
The Reign of Christ
For most dispensationalists, the millennial reign of Christ will begin after his return, at the end of a distinct seven-year period known as the tribulation. The millennial reign of Christ begins at the third coming of Christ. Dispensationalists propose a secret rapture concept in which Christ returns (prior to or midway through the tribulation period) to remove the Church from the earth.
The Role of Satan
Like historic premillennialism, dispensationalism argues that Satan is actively at work to resist the Church and undermine God’s people. He will be bound for the duration of the millennium and only released for a final confrontation following his thousand-year captivity.
Key Passages: While dispensationalism also shares premillennialism’s more literal approach to the key passages, dispensationalism holds Daniel 9 (on the 70 weeks) as a key passage for interpreting the arc of history. Additionally, classic dispensationalism proposes that the content of the Bible is divided along seven dispensations (or eras). While different schools of dispensationalism categorize these eras differently, one common structure is innocence, conscience, human government, promise, law, grace, and the millennium. Key passages are interpreted through this dispensational framework.
Notable Representatives: Lewis S. Chafer, John Walvoord, Charles Ryrie, Hal Lindsey, John MacArthur.
This does not sound like Bush. It does sound like what some people think all Evangelical Christians sound like.
Gents,
I’m well aware of Protestant differences. We have terms like “mainstream Protestant” or otherwise for a reason. Many stripes of Protestant still reference the same eschatology. Whether a conversation in Boy Scouts, a discussion in college, or speaking with people at work, I have heard this same idea from many. Precise verbiage about Gog and Magog, perhaps not. Even so, whether they take it seriously or not, most I have ever met can elaborate about The Rapture and the End Times.
Notably, we don’t know the context. We don’t know if the comment came about at all, never mind being in serious or in jest.
Knowing that, I confirm that such a comment sounds like a typical Protestant.
“Russia isn’t Magog. No valid Russian historical source. such as the Primary Chronicle, claims Magog as an ancestor.”
Our original quote referenced Iraq and Afghanistan. ..I don’t recall Russia being part of the conversation. It’s always possible I didn’t hear the whole thing; AFN may have omitted that for troops overseas. Even so, I don’t believe we had that much concern about Russia.
John L. Flaherty is correct –> “Our original quote referenced Iraq and Afghanistan. ..I don’t recall Russia being part of the conversation.”
That said, almost all of my many dispensationalist study Bibles (Charles Ryrie’s, CI Scofield’s, David Jeremiah’s, John Hagee’s Prophecy Study Bible, etc.) reflect what the Henry Morris Study Bible says about God and Magog in Ezekiel chapter 38. None of this was indicated in the quote attributed to Bush Jr. when speaking to the French President. And none of this exists in the Father George Haydock Study Bible of 1859 (which I trust implicity):
https://haydockcommentary.com/ezechiel-38
Nevertheless, with great pain I photographed the study notes in my Henry Morris Study Bible, converted the photos to PDFs and then copied the PDF text into MS Word to give you the substance of what dispensationalists typically believe. I doubt the typical Protestant can give a detailed exegesis like this, but more than likely is aware of the board outline, thanks to Hal Lindsey’s books and movies.
God and Magog
38:2 Gog: Gog seems to be the name of the commander-in-chief of this confederation of nations which will invade Israel “in the latter days” (38:16), some time after Israel has been reestablished in its land while still rejecting God and His Christ-as outlined in Ezekiel 37. The name “Gog” may be an accommodation to some such ethnic name as “Georgi.” Magog is evidently Gog’s country associated also with the countries of Meshech and Tubal. All three countries were named after their founding fathers, each of whom was a son of Japheth (Ge 10:2), and all three originally settled in what is now Asia Minor, north of Israel.
38:2 Chief Prince: The words “chief prince” may also be rendered “prince of Rosh,” and some translations so render it. This may well be a reference to the people known as “Rus,” who eventually became Russia. The names “Meshech” and “Tubal” may be preserved today as “Muscovy” or “Moscow, and “Tobolsk” and Tbilisi of Magog is identified by Josephus with the Scythians, and there is considerable evidence that all three tribes eventually migrated farther north. Whether they can be precisely identified as equivalent to modern Russia (or other states of the former Soviet Union) is debatable, but it does appear most probable that the prophecy does refer to a “northern confederacy,” coming out of the “north parts” (38:15).
38:5 Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya: Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya are all ancient nations; and they are still important nations “After many days” (38:8), collaborating with the northern confederation to go against Israel.
38:5 Shield and Helmet: The emphasis in Ezekiel 38:4-5 is that the invading armies are heavily armed. Ezekiel in his vision could only identify their armaments in terms of things he knew, so he spoke of “horses,” swords,” etc., to refer possibly to tanks and guns, but he also summarized it as “all sorts of armor” (38:4)
38:6 Gomer: Gomer was another son of Japheth and father of Togarmah (Ge 10:2-3). His descendants also originally settled in Asia Minor, Gomer’s name being preserved today in the Crimea, and Togarmah’s probably in Armenia (possibly also in Turkestan and Turkey). There is some indication that Gomer’s descendants later migrated west and gave their name to Germany.
38:6 Many People: In addition to the tribes named, there will also be others in fact, many people with thee. In Psalm 83, another confederation of peoples is shown invading Israel in the last days – Edom, the lshmaelites, Moab, the Hagarenes, Gebal, Ammon, the Philistines, Tyre and Assyria. It is significant that these were the ancient names of the peoples immediately surrounding Israel whereas those in Ezekiel 38 are those surrounding these nations. This is probably the same invasion, seen from both an internal perspective and an external perspective, for both end the same way, in a great convulsion of nature.
38:9 Ascend and Come: This probably describes an aerial attack
38:9 All Thy Bands: It is noteworthy that all these “bands,” involving “many people,” are composed either of Muslim nations or nations which were until recently communist nations and which are still controlled by leaders who are atheists and Marxists. All of these hate Israel and would love to “cut them off from being a nation” (Ps 83:4). In recent years, Israel has soundly defeated several smaller confederacies which attempted to destroy her, but this confederacy seems so large and strong that nothing less than divine intervention can save her. But note that it is God Himself who has said to Gog: “I will bring thee forth, and all thine army” (38:4). All this is part of God’s plan to bring Israel to “know that I am the Lord” (39:22).
38:13 Sheba, and Dedan: Sheba and Dedan are apparently. rather peripheral and relatively small Arab nations, who will not join with the other Muslim nations in the anti-Israel confederation. Probably they represent oil-rich nations whose interests are mainly economic, and thus who side with “the merchants of Tarshish.”
38:13 Tarshish: Tarshish was a grandson of Japheth through Javan (Ge 10:4). Javan was ancestor of the Greeks and Tarshish seems to have migrated still farther west. His name is always associated with a far-flung merchant marine, possibly allied somehow with the Phoenicians. In the context of the last days, however, Tarshish and “the young lions thereof” would seem to represent nations of Japhethites (which would mean primarily Europeans and Americans) with widespread economic and maritime activities. Many scholars believe that the city-state of Tarshish was originally in either Spain or Portugal or England, and it was these nations, of course, that primarily settled the Americas also. Thus, England, the United States, and other Euro-American nations are probably the ones who will remonstrate with Gog over the projected invasion of their friend, Israel. The invasion will be so sudden and large, however, that they will not have time to send military aid to Israel, even if they want to.
38:19 Fire of My Wrath: God has long been patient with the Muslim nations who have rejected His Son as Savior, while professing to believe in God as Creator, and the Marxist/atheist nations who have rejected Him as both Creator and Savior. But His wrath can be restrained no longer when these all collaborate in an effort to annihilate His chosen people.
38:19 Great Shaking: Israel will be saved not by military might, but by a tremendous earthquake There will also be “an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone” (38:22). The gigantic convulsions of nature will attract not only the armies of Gog but also the whole world.
I go to Catholic Bible study. We have been using studies from Ascension Press, Augustine Institute, and Dr. Brant Pitre. Ascension Press sells workbooks and DVDs. You can pay for a time limited viewing access online to the videos. The Augustine Institute sells Bible study materials for their Lectio series of Bible studies. If you have access to the Formed website the Lectio series is on their website as well as other Bible studies. The Formed website has individual and parish subscriptions available. Some parishes get a subscription that allows their parishioners to access the website without the need for an individual subscription. Dr. Brant Pitre has presentations for sale available in video and audio only formats. He has free downloadable PDF outlines of the presentations that give a good overview of each presentation. He also has many free videos on YouTube. Some of them are excerpts from the videos that he has for sale.
@ LCQ: Thank you for a voluminous but very detailed analysis which I will have to work through over the next couple days. Very informative.
I must note that fundamentalist Protestant commentator Hal Lindsay has always for years identified Gog and Magog as Russia and China. That is a fairly common thought among fundamentalist Christians.
I’m laughing at myself….I skimmed very quickly the letter from President Bush to President Chirac. At first reading I thought Chirac and Bush must be very familiar with Gog and Magog nick names for George and Laura. Their “work in the Middle East” meant trips to boost morale for our troops. Good grief!
GregB –> good info. Tnx. Catholic Biblical scholarship is getting better, so long as it stays away from the USCCB & the Vatican.
Steve Phoenix –> you’re welcome. My pleasure.
I’m imagining Bush said something more along the lines of “Junior and Senior are at work in the Middle East”…..”this confrontation is willed by my oil-drilling mates who want to use this conflict to erase our pride of country and bugger up our citizens before the new golden age of the Obama’s, Biden’s and Hillary’s begins…so I can live cushy and exalted in retirement and paint pretty pictures on the ranch.”
Jacque Chirac sipped his glass of Moët and said to his aides “oui oui, how can I live zis “cushy-in-retirement” tout suite?”
Ezabelle, you made me laugh!
😂 They laugh at us good folk. Why can’t we laugh at them?