Insanity is insanity, no matter who says it.
Update:
I doubt if Vigano writes most of his latest missives, just as much as I doubt the Pope writes the more literate potions of his encyclicals.
Tuesday, May 14, AD 2024 3:48pm
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Let us listen to Archbishop Vigano. He speaks the truth about the Church and the world. He effectively our stand-in Pope. Someday he will be declared a saint.
Here is his latest of truth—this time on the Ukraine.
Abp. Viganò: Globalists have fomented war in Ukraine to establish the tyranny of the New World Order
The Ukrainian people, regardless of what ethnic group they may belong to, are merely the latest unwitting hostages of the supranational totalitarian regime that brought the national economies of the entire world to their knees through the COVID deception.
https://www.lifesitenews.com/opinion/abp-vigano-globalists-have-fomented-war-in-ukraine-to-establish-the-tyranny-of-the-new-world-order/
That is completely nuts Michael. This war was caused by Putin and no one else.
Is there ANY figure in the Church or government or military or diplomacy circles right now who isn’t completely nuts? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?
Your Bishop for starts Elaine.
Really, Donald? Literally no one else? No one else bears any responsibility whatsoever? You need to think this through a little better than you have done so far, instead of just digging in your heels and calling the people you disagree with crazy.
No one else bears any responsibility whatsoever?
Nope. This invasion is purely on Putin’s head, just as the invasion of Poland in 1939 was on Hitler’s head and the invasion of Finland in 1940 was on Stalin’s head. This is not rocket science.
Literally no one else? No one else bears any responsibility whatsoever?
You fancy someone Jedi mind-tricked Putin into ordering the invasion?
If there’s “one thing” that each of us should hold in our heads it’s:
“More than one thing can be true at the same time.”
I gotta say, it’s refreshing to see somebody NOT making the “Ukraine was wearing a short skirt, and besides, good people wouldn’t be in that area” type arguments, much less the “well, Russia raped the country once, so the Ukraine should just lay back and enjoy it.”
Seriously, the near-word-for-word copying of arguments from “identifying and escaping abusive relationships” is getting extremely freaky, not that I thought international interactions were high falutin’ or something.
Just like to point out that those Rorate Caeli tweets concerning Vigano’s ‘retirement’ are factually incorrect. His last status at the Vatican cannot accurately be characterized as such.
It’s been evident that Vigano has been going off the rails since early 2020. I would like to suggest this possibility: since we know Vigano has been in hiding, it might be possible that the blame lies as much with the people who have been hiding him as with the Archbishop himself. He might have become a captive audience to this paranoia.
@”This invasion is purely on Putin’s head, just as the invasion of Poland in 1939 was on Hitler’s head and the invasion of Finland in 1940 was on Stalin’s head.”
As we now know from history, this is true, but incomplete. Hitler’s genocidal campaign was enabled, in large part by unwise decisions after WW1, by allies, who in their zeal to punitively punish the German nation bankrupted the nation and left their people desperate and vulnerable to exploitation by a mad- man. Stalin was encouraged by leftists who lauded him as he destroyed the basic human rights of his people, and murdered millions in the Ukraine, and who defended him even after he entered into pact with Hitler, and who only turned on Hitler after he invaded the USSR in 1941.
Hitler and Stalin were “gods” in their own mind who could do no wrong and whose moral limits were governed only by their appetites for power. Those who enabled them were the soil out of which the poisonous weeds grew.
History is complicated. War has many causes and contributing factors.
The invasion of Poland was only “incomplete” in that part of Poland was invaded by the Soviet Union.
There is ABSOLUTELY NO JUSTIFICATION for saying “ah, I am poor; I shall wipe out the disabled, execute the politically inconvenient, and attempt to wipe God’s Chosen off the face of the earth, among other genocides.”
Hitler’s genocidal campaign was enabled, in large part by unwise decisions after WW1, by allies, who in their zeal to punitively punish the German nation bankrupted the nation and left their people desperate and vulnerable to exploitation by a mad- man. Stalin was encouraged by leftists who lauded him as he destroyed the basic human rights of his people, and murdered millions in the Ukraine, and who defended him even after he entered into pact with Hitler, and who only turned on Hitler after he invaded the USSR in 1941.
The comment as to Hitler is simply untrue. Germany was doing quite well financially until the Great Depression. The Treaty of Versailles, although resented by the German people, had little role in Hitler’s rise. The Nazis were a small factor in German politics, receiving only three percent of the vote, in the German elections of 1928. Their time came as a result of the Great Depression. Stalin paid virtually zero attention to what Leftists outside of Russia said. The invasion of Finland was purely a project of Stalin.
Seriously, the near-word-for-word copying of arguments from “identifying and escaping abusive relationships” is getting extremely freaky,
Yeah Foxfier, the pro-Putin arguments often boil down to: “He didn’t abuse her, and anyway the slut had it coming.”
It has been confirmed that someone else ghost-writes for Vigano, and further that he has been advised that kooky garbage is issued under his name. He simply doesn’t care.
https://www.corrispondenzaromana.it/the-vigano-case-the-archbishop-and-his-double/
“Your Bishop for starters”
True, and he’s one of the relatively few good things about living in downstate IL. By the way, I hear you have a new bishop now…,
I have seen this. So appalled I had to take a screen shot.
There’s a strong “Putin is my tough boyfriend” vibe coming up from some conservative and traditionalist quarters.
And sometimes it even comes from women.
Here’s Roberto de Mattei’s look at Vigano’s ghostwriter. Very interesting.
https://www.corrispondenzaromana.it/vigano-case-who-is-the-real-author-of-the-writings-of-archbishop-vigano/
By the way, I hear you have a new bishop now…,
Yeah, Jenky reached 75 last week. One of Cupich’s boys so I am not hopeful but I am reserving judgment for now. Until a man actually has the power they can surprise you, good and bad.
That ghost writer info is very interesting, Dale.
BTW, I was wrong about the retirement, just saw that now. Can’t remember everything.
The comment as to Hitler is simply untrue. Germany was doing quite well financially until the Great Depression. The Treaty of Versailles, although resented by the German people, had little role in Hitler’s rise. The Nazis were a small factor in German politics, receiving only three percent of the vote in the German elections of 1928. Their time came as a result of the Great Depression. Stalin paid virtually zero attention to what Leftists outside of Russia said. The invasion of Finland was purely a project of Stalin.
Partially disagree. It took until 1928 for the per capita product in Germany to return to what it was in 1913, and then the economy began to sink again. The German body politic was hit with four stressors: the loss of the war; the aftermath, including the terms of the treaty; the hyperinflation of 1922-24, and the Depression. It was only after the 4th blow that the political establishment was discredited to such an extent that the electorate turned to the Nazis and Communists (with the former receiving about 85% of the shift in preferences). What might have happened had Karl Jarres been elected President in 1925, or had Paul v. Hindenberg had stood down in favor of someone sensible in 1932, or had the Bruening ministry had adopted appropriate fiscal and monetary policies, or had the German constitution not prescribed a wretched electoral system, we cannot know.
You’ll have some measure with how he handles the beatification of Fulton Sheen. But frankly, I would be filled with dread.
You fancy someone Jedi mind-tricked Putin into ordering the invasion?
I like it.
I’ll go with this one.
🙂
Well, after two years of Covid hysteria, the only source I know not to trust at all is the United States government, and the United States military. I’ll believe the opposite of whatever the official pronouncements out of Washington are on this and any other issue. And given the depravity of the medicinal rapists who run the US government, I’ll also hope and pray for the “demilitarization” and “denazification” of Federal and State governments here.
Brian: I would take some exception to including the military as an object of mistrust. The Secretary of Defense and the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs are political hacks despite their titles. They owe deference to the President who appointed them. A truly military official with integrity would resign before carrying out orders that are illegal or detrimental to the armed services or the country.
We have our Monroe Doctrine, which I support. Is it so difficult to grasp that Russians may have a similar aversion to a contiguous country forming an alliance (NATO) with a perceived adversary. Aside from this what national interest of the United States is at risk in this unfortunate war which is Biden and the Democrats last best hope to maintain total control of the government later this year. By the way, what exactly have the Russians done to the United States in the last 20 years? The same voices, attracting many well meaning people, that pushed “wars” in Serbia, Bosnia, Kuwait, Iraq, Lybia, and Syria are at it again. Hardly a left winger or pacifist, Dwight Eisenhower warned us of the military industrial complex decades ago. He has been roundly ignored by practically all.
Going through the editorial, here are roughly the claims made, together with my estimates on their truth or falsity:
-The media lied shamelessly about COVID and could do the same about the reasons for a military conflict: True.
-There are certain organizations, such as those of George Soros or Bill Gates, which have a tremendous influence across various international organizations: True.
-The media is hyping up Ukrainian propaganda to turn Zelensky into a hero and Putin into a monstrous Warmonger: True.
-It’s implied, though not outright stated, that Russia’s atrocities in the news are not what they appear: Difficult to verify as true or false, but probably overstated.
-Similarly it is implied, though not outright stated, that it is farcical to call the US and NATO defenders of democracy: True; both the Ukraine and Russia are democracies on paper but very corrupt in fact, so whatever the conflict is about it is not about defending democracy.
-NATO has expanded towards Russia in violation of earlier agreements: NATO definitely has been expanding steadily towards Russia, but I can’t find any explicit agreement which forbids this. (Even Vigano just makes reference to demands that Russia had made, but not anything agreed to by the west.)
-The war halts Nord Stream 2, which is to the financial benefit of Ukraine: I don’t know if it is off the table or not, but it seems doubtful that it would be of enough benefit to offset the cost of being invaded.
-The US has bioweapons laboratories in Ukraine which could act as a threat to Russians: The labs are there, though whether they are threatening Russia is another matter.
-Supply chain issues in Ukraine could force China to attack Taiwan: I’m not really following Vigano’s argument here. It’s apparently based off an editorial in an Italian newspaper, and I can’t read Italian.
-Biden has ties to Ukraine: True, though whether this makes a war in Ukraine to his advantage is harder to see.
-Russia fears that Ukraine will get nuclear weapons if it joins NATO: Maybe, but this is hardly an imminent threat. Even if it were to happen Ukraine would first need to join NATO.
-The Ukrainian government has oppressed the regions of Crimea, Donetsk and Lugansk, which have strong separatist sentiments – True at least to some extent.
-These operations were funded by George Soros – Now we are firmly in conspiracy theory territory, though it isn’t an impossible one. However Vigano does not present any firm evidence for this conclusion.
-White Nationalist groups have been active in these regions – True from everything that I can find. They aren’t exactly shy about their sympathies.
-Zelensky is an actor groomed by deep state forces for the role as president: Well he certainly is an actor whose main qualification for being president was playing president on TV. And he certainly has governed consistently with the dictates of the World Economic Forum. But saying that he was specifically groomed by them for the role of president, and that this is how he landed his TV roles in the first place is again in the realm of conspiracy theories. Not impossible ones, but ones which Vigano should have had more evidence for.
-A lot of what follows next is variations about what Zelensky’s aims are, the presence of neo-nazi groups in Ukraine and statements that the media are using propaganda and manipulating things for their narrative. I’ve already addressed these claims above.
-After this point Vigano goes away from statements of fact, to an analysis of the moral and political justification for involvement by the EU or NATO (and in particular Italy) in the conflict, and then various calls to actions. So I won’t analyze this part of the editorial.
tl;dr analysis: Some of what Vigano says is undeniably true, none of what he says is absolutely impossible, but he does make several extreme claims that should be justified and are not.
We have our Monroe Doctrine, which I support. Is it so difficult to grasp that Russians may have a similar aversion to a contiguous country forming an alliance (NATO) with a perceived adversary.
The Ukraine is not enrolled in NATO.
Aside from this what national interest of the United States is at risk in this unfortunate war which is Biden and the Democrats last best hope to maintain total control of the government later this year.
I’m sure this made sense to you while you typed it.
By the way, what exactly have the Russians done to the United States in the last 20 years? The same voices, attracting many well meaning people, that pushed “wars” in Serbia, Bosnia, Kuwait, Iraq, Lybia, and Syria are at it again.
Kuwait was invaded and conquered by Iraq. We were never engaged in any war in Bosnia. Our aerial campaign in Serbia was to head off an ethnic cleansing extravaganza and induce them to withdraw from a territory whose population they had been abusing for 12 years – before and after the slaughters they ran in Bosnia. Both Libya and Syria had suffered a political and social breakdown before western forces were active there. As for Iraq, George W Bush faced a trilemma in 2002: leave the sanctions on (which Big Consciences assured us were costing 500,000 excess deaths a year), take the sanctions off (with the implications that carried for Iraq’s neighbors), or eject the government. Your better plan?
Hardly a left winger or pacifist, Dwight Eisenhower warned us of the military industrial complex decades ago. He has been roundly ignored by practically all.
Actually, during his administration, peacetime military expenditure bounced around a set point of about 11% of gross domestic product and American manpower deployed abroad was around 800,000 men. As we speak, we spend 3.7% of gross domestic product and American billets abroad have been cut to 200,000.
I also find it funny that in a thread about conspiracy theories, the idea that Vigano’s words are not his own but are of those of an imposter using Vigano’s office for his own ends are taken seriously. This is certainly possible, but it is also a conspiracy and the evidence for it is inconclusive at best (especially since if Vigano employs a ghostwriter and agrees with what he says, there is little functional difference to him simply writing things without a ghostwriter. So the point is only relevant if Vigano disapproves of his alleged ghostwriter, which there is basically no evidence for). However it doesn’t bear the name of “conspiracy theory” since it doesn’t go outside the approved narrative.
Never said that. Neither did de Mattei. According to de Mattei, Vigano is aware that his ghostwriter is a problem, but does not care. The relevance of the ghostwriter is that it explains how Vigano went from workaday churchman whistleblower to political pundit on matters global who now traffics in anti-semitic tropes about kippah-wearing Ukrainian businessmen.
https://twitter.com/jdflynn/status/1501097616368717824
Vigano has one of the few sane voices in my opinion. Of course, he will be vilified even by ‘faithful’ Catholics.
Vigano got more than a little too high on his own hype.
As for the literate portions of Francis’ encyclicals, I didn’t know there were any.
Oh, there are a few, and they stand out like gold coins among a mass of pennies.
I can accept that a Vatican ambassador would have insights into the McCarrick scandal. Troop movements?
Actually, a mass of pennies can be something of real value. That’s more than what can be said of much of what comes out of this pontificate.
Some of the Pope’s ghostwriters are as bad as he is!
https://www.churchmilitant.com/news/article/kissing-bishop-spins-worthy-access-to-sacraments
Archbishop Vigano is a faithful servant of Christ. WhT is going on in Ukraine was caused by the diseased Marxists aka the globalist owned fascists in leadership in the west breaking promises made to Russia about not bringing in border countries to NATO. Ukraine is corrupt, a gangster controlled state, and Zelensky is the puppet of oligarchs. Bill Clinton falsely claimed to give tens of billions to Ukraine to build their economy, it went to foreign oligarchs who bought the government and gained control of Ukraine’s resources. Biden, Johnson and the rest baited Putin, he hasn’t been flattening Ukraine, he has been surrounding the Ukrainian military who have been hiding behind civilians. Biden from the beginning has been pushing Putin towards China which is insanity, it is pushing the reChristianized Russian people to possibly the same fate as the Christians in China. I wouldn’t trust anyone who is a toady of false pope Francis.
Dan Ackroyd keeps leaping to mind.
The insults on this site seem to have more more and more in common with Mark Shea than is customary. From an outside observer, it would not be time of repentance and preparation of Easter.
Mary Moretti, there’s no doubt that both Ukraine and Russia are corrupt, having their fair share of oligarchs, gangsters and criminals. And yes, old Warsaw Pact countries did join NATO but on their own accord. And yes, this moved NATO borders much closer to Russia, but the sovereign countries between Russia and Western Europe did that of their own free accord. And I am sure politicians of both parties in the US played both ends – Russia and Ukraine – against the middle as corrupt politicians are wont to do. BUT, Vladimir Putin initiated force against a sovereign country which had NOT done anything military to threaten him or Russia as a whole. The initiation of force is WRONG, and the end result is affecting millions of people in Ukraine as well as impoverishing millions of Russians through the inevitable retaliatory sanctions. All Putin has to do is withdraw and all this stops. Yes, I agree: Russia becoming cozy with communist China is a bad thing. Yes, I despise Jorge Bergoglio too. But that’s neither here nor there. What matters is this: Putin initiated force against Ukraine and that is morally wrong, regardless of what China, Bergoglio, Biden, Clinton, Zelensky and all the rest did. Putin started the military conflict, so the moral conseuences are on his head. As for oligarchs and drug dealers and human trafficking dealers and the rest of the criminal elements in both countries – Russia and China – one day they will stand before God Almighty as we all shall and answer to Him for what they have done. Aiding and abetting Putin – or even excusing his violence as justifiable – isn’t going to make any of that better.
Instead of calling him insane, why don’t you refute his claims with sources? Is it because you can’t? Is the reason you can’t because everything he says is 100% factually correct? If everything he’s saying is 100% factually correct, then does that mean he’s not insane and you’re using ad hominem attacks to avoid engaging with his actual claims? Why would you avoid engaging his actual claims?
Instead of calling him insane, why don’t you refute his claims with sources?
Wouldn’t it be (pseudo?)Vigano’s responsibility to provide some kind of credible supporting evidence for his claims?
Is it because you can’t? Is the reason you can’t because everything he says is 100% factually correct?
I’m thinking … Probably not.
Here’s a better idea: you come up with verified sources supporting all of his claims and then get back to us. The burden of proof is on the one supporting the man who is bombarding Catholics in Ukraine (as well as the Orthodox).
In the meantime, ponder why a Catholic shepherd utters not one single syllable on behalf of the Catholics of Ukraine, Ukrainian or Latin. And come up with an explanation for that grounded in the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
We’ll wait.