Christopher Blosser:
As a young convert I was very much intrigued by the ongoing discussion between Richard J. Neuhaus, George Weigel, Michael Novak and Fr. Robert Sirico — and their critics, ranging from David Schindler (editor of Communio) to Tracey Rowland and Alisdair MacIntyre. This has sometimes been described as a debate between ‘Catholic neocons’ and ‘Catholic paleocons’; ‘Whig-Thomists’ vs. ‘Augustinian Thomists’ (the latter by Tracey Roland in a famous two-part interview with Zenit).
The discussion was centered on such questions as:
One of my chief sparring partners online was David Jones, founder of the blog la nouvelle theologie. While my time of late has been preoccupied with readings in other subjects (and other pursuits), David has kept up with new developments in this ongoing discussion. Among them, the recent exchanges between Catholic-traditionalist-turned-libertarian Dr. Thomas Woods and his chief critics, Thomas Storck and Christopher Ferrara (of The Remnant)– about which David would like to offer the following remarks in a guest post:
David Jones:
I would like to thank The American Catholic and all the contributors to it for hosting such a great website! I really admire and respect what you’re doing here and I deeply appreciate the opportunity to post here.
In the past several years, a growing feud or debate has broke out between two Catholic camps. Both sides have well known Catholic scholars and thinkers. The first can be classified as “Traditional Catholics” or Distributists. The second camp, the opposing side, are the Austrian Economists. I am absolutely fascinated by this discussion. I hope some others are as well.
Allow me to give a little bit of background on myself. As both Blosser and Burgwald will tell you I consider myself an Augustinian Thomist, really a Hillbilly Thomist if truth is being told, and a Distributist.
A funny thing happened several months ago though. Dr. Woods actually commented on a post on the Storck vs. Woods debate. I was vaguely familiar with Ron Paul, but I had never studied Austrian Economics before. I asked him for some online references and books, which he graciously provided in the comments. I am deeply grateful to him for doing so.
Since then I have spent hundreds of hours to reading articles, books, and listening to podcasts on Austrian Economics. It simply is fascinating. Even though I was a Poli. Sci. undergrad student I have never had a deep understanding of economics in general nor on how the market really works, etc. By no means am I an economist now, but I do have a deeper understanding. I do not consider myself a Libertarian nor can I say I’m an Austrian, but I do enjoy the writings and audios of men like Lew Rockwell (Catholic), Dr. Tom Woods (Catholic), Ron Paul, and many others in this camp. If you want to understand the current economic troubles and boom/bust cycles of the market there is no better place to go. Check out the Ludwig von Mises Institute and their free resources at iTunes University and LewRockwell.com.
To be sure studying Austrian Economics has totally changed my perspective on investing. It has changed my life for the good. (I am sure Christopher Blosser is having a stroke about right now, or at least has a smile on his face. I doubt he has a Ron Paul sticker on his car though — If he does, I will have a stroke!)
I would like to make a critical judgment of both camps. The Austrians err when they claim that the Distributists are a bunch of ignoramuses who simply don’t understand economics. Refer to the academic qualifications of men in the Distributist camp, like John Médaille, Thomas Storck, Race Mathews, Richard Aleman, etc. I would remind folks that Lew Rockwell’s degree is in English and Tom Wood’s degree is in history. The Distributists err when they claim the Austrians are a bunch of heretics. In Catholic Social Doctrine there is the principle of the “Autonomy of the Temporal Order”. The Church does not mandate we embrace a specific economic (or political) model. The Church has been critical of both Socialism and Capitalism in the past, but also recognizes that we live in a global economy today. The prudential application of moral principles can be applied in both a Distributist and Capitalist economic model.
For me and what I feel is the appropriate Catholic response is the following. It’s not an either/or solution, it’s a both/and solution. Test everything, hold fast to what is good in both camps. Both camps should refrain from making this personal. It’s doesn’t need to go there, and this can remain a polite and professional conversation. There are good Catholics on both sides of this debate. We have much to learn from both camps.
[David Jones blogs at la nouvelle theologie).
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Recent Discussions between “Catholic Libertarian” Thomas Woods and his Distributist Critics
The Seattle Catholic Exchange
Prompted by an article, “Distributism as Economic Theory,” by John Clark (Latin Mass Spring 2002).
- Capitalism and Catholic Economics, by John Sharpe. Seattle Catholic September 6, 2002.
- The Capitalist Response, by John Clark. Seattle Catholic September 26, 2002.
- Three Catholic Cheers for Capitalism, by Thomas E. Woods, Jr. (LewRockwell.com. October 7, 2002).
- What Does It Profit a Man…?, by Br. Alexis Bugnolo. Seattle Catholic October 11, 2002.
- Economics and Profit: A Final Word, by Thomas E. Woods, Jr. Seattle Catholic October 17, 2002.
- Liberal Economics vs. Catholic Truth, by John Sharpe. Seattle Catholic November 3, 2002.
The Woods-Storck Debate
- Catholic Social Teaching and Economic Law: An Unresolved Tension, by Thomas E. Woods, Jr. (LewRockwell.com March 22, 2002). Delivered a the 8th Austrian Scholars Conference at the Ludwig von Mises Institute in Auburn, Ala. From the author:
What follows is a discussion of Catholic social thought and the question of the just wage. I have nothing but the most profound respect for the nineteenth- and twentieth-century popes, who led the Church with courage and principle. As for the concept of the just wage, however, the time has come to acknowledge, with the late Scholastics, that the just wage is the market wage. As Fr. James Sadowsky of Fordham University has argued, if a business can “afford” to pay a just wage, market competition for labor will yield one. If it cannot, then it won’t. In advocating socially desirable outcomes, it is essential to study how best they can be brought about.
- Morality and Economic Law: Toward a Reconciliation, by Thomas E. Woods, Jr. (LewRockwell.com March 20, 2004) The Lou Church Memorial Lecture in Religion and Economics, Austrian Scholars Conference, Ludwig von Mises Institute, Auburn, Alabama, March 20, 2004. | Audio
- Economic Science and Catholic Social Teaching, by Thomas Storck. (Chronicles Magazine June 17, 2004)
- On the Actual Progress of Peoples, by Thomas E. Woods, Jr. (LewRockwell.com June 22, 2004)
- The Difficulties of Thomas Woods, by Thomas Storck. (Chronicles Magazine July 11, 2004)
- Catholics and Capitalism, by Thomas E. Woods, Jr. (LewRockwell.com November 12, 2004)
- Catholic Social Teaching and the Market Economy Revisited: A Reply to Thomas Storck, by Thomas E. Woods, Jr. (LewRockwell.com January 12, 20010). This paper appears in the current issue of the Catholic Social Science Review (vol. 14, 2009), under the heading “Symposium: The Implications of Catholic Social Teaching for Economic Science: An Exchange between Thomas Storck and Thomas E. Woods, Jr., with Responses.” [1] The Thomas Storck paper to which this one is a reply may be found here | Based on a panel discussion 03-14-09 at the Ludwig von Mises Institute in Auburn, Alabama (Audio). Responses to the exchange:
- Is Thomas Woods A Dissenter? A Further Reply, Pt. 1 (01-18-10) | Part 2 (01-20-10) | Part 3 (01-22-10) | Part 4 (01-25-10). By Thomas Storck. (Chronicles Magazine)
- Is Thomas Woods a Dissenter? (Response from Thomas Woods) ThomasEWoods.com. Friday February 5, 2010.
On Thomas Woods’ The Church and the Market: A Catholic Defense of the Free Economy
- Capitalism and Catholicism, by Thomas E. Woods, Jr. (LewRockwell.com February 14, 2005)
- Economics As Science: A Catholic Defense of the Free Market, by Thomas E. Woods, Jr. (InsideCatholic.com April 29, 2008). Based on remarks delivered during the author’s December lecture tour of Poland.
On the Woods-Ferrara Debate
- Ludwig von Mises versus Christ, the Gospel and the Church (An Open Letter to Tom Woods). February 15, 2010.
- On Chris Ferrara
- Ground Control to Major Tom Remnant Press Release. July 17, 2010.
- Michael Matt’s interview with Christopher Ferrara (Part I) | Part II The Remnant August 30 / September 2, 2010.
- Two Catholic authors at odds over economics, while another grieves loss in sense of sin, by Matt C. Abbott. Renew America February 16, 2010.
- John Médaille’s forward to The Church and the Libertarian. The Distributist Review July 6, 2010.
- A Resolved Tension, by Jeremiah Bannister. The Distributist Review August 3, 2010. “The question, then, becomes whether the position held by Woods and those like him hold up in light of what the Church has said regarding her own competency in these matters. In brief, do Catholic libertarians of this kind speak of the Church as the Church speaks of herself?”
- Exposing Catholic Austro-Libertarian Dissent Jeremiah Bannister’s second half to “A Resolved Tension” in audio format. The Distributist Review August 24, 2010.
- An Interview with Christopher Ferrara Distributist Review August 2010. Jeremiah Bannister interviews author and attorney Christopher A. Ferrara about his new book The Church and the Libertarian. They discuss the Austro-libertarian movement, Catholic Social Teaching, and Distributism.
About the Authors
Thomas Storck has been intrigued with Catholic social thought since he first read Richard Tawney’s Religion and the Rise of Capitalism in high school. This book began a life-long interest in the social teachings of the Catholic Church.
Mr. Storck was received into the Church in 1978 and in 1983 began writing regularly on Catholic social teaching, Catholic culture, and other theological and philosophical topics. He is the author of three books, The Catholic Milieu
His work has appeared in numerous publications and websites in North America and Europe. He served as a contributing editor for Caelum et Terra from 1991 until the magazine closed in 1996 and the New Oxford Review from 1996 to 2006. Since 1998 he has been a member of the editorial board of The Chesterton Review.
Mr. Storck has taught history at Christendom College in Front Royal, Virginia, and philosophy at Mt. Aloysius College in Cresson, Pennsylvania and Catonsville Community College in Catonsville, Maryland. He holds an undergraduate degree in English literature from Kenyon College in Gambier, Ohio and an M.A. from St. John’s College, Santa Fe, New Mexico, with additional studies in history at Bluffton College and in economics at the USDA Graduate School in Washington, D.C. [Source]
* * *
Thomas E. Woods, Jr., is a senior fellow at the Ludwig von Mises Institute. He holds a bachelor’s degree in history from Harvard and his master’s, M.Phil., and Ph.D. from Columbia University. He is the author of nine books, including two New York Times bestsellers: Meltdown: A Free-Market Look at Why the Stock Market Collapsed, the Economy Tanked, and Government Bailouts Will Make Things Worse.
For eleven years Woods served as associate editor of The Latin Mass magazine; he is presently a contributing editor of The American Conservative magazine. A contributor to six encyclopedias, Woods is co-editor of Exploring American History: From Colonial Times to 1877, an eleven-volume encyclopedia.
* * *
Christopher Ferrara is founder of the American Catholic Lawyers Association. Active in the pro-life movement, he has won a number of acquittals and dismissals of pro-life activists at the trial level and is well known for his legal service in the fight to save the life of Terri Schiavo. He has written a number of books including EWTN: A Network Gone Wrong,
Additional Skirmishes
Distributist Review and Inside Catholic
- Why Catholics Don’t Understand Economics, by Jeffrey Tucker. InsideCatholic.com August 25, 2010.
- The Chips Begin to Fall Where They May The Distributist Review August 27, 2010. Ryan Grant makes the allegation: “Inside Catholic has banned anyone from making an informed comment against the Austrian position. Particularly, every member of this Review commenting on the site has had their IP addresses banned.” (Accompanying audio: “Outing InsideCatholic”).
Thomas Storck and Fr. Robert Sirico (Acton Institute)
- Can Economic Justice Be Achieved Without Law?, by Thomas Storck. New Oxford Review October 2000.
- Fr. Sirico Replies (Response to Thomas Storck) New Oxford Review January 2001.
- Is the Acton Institute a Genuine Expression of Catholic Social Thought?, by Thomas Storck. Social Justice Review, vol. 93, no. 5-6, May-June 2002.
- Middle Ground Between Storck and Sirico?, by Joe Hargrave. The Distributist Review January 27, 2010.
Good post, David. Off-topic, but are you in CL?
Great post – I agree this discussion is fascinating. IT it is very much improved by the frank admission and acceptance of the principle of the autonomy of the temporal order, and the civility of the contributors to the discussion. I hope to see more posts like this here.
BA: he is, as am I. You?
I hate this post. I don’t like things that remind me of how poorly read I am. 😉
In seriousness, thank you very much for writing this; I think it will give people like me a basis for understanding this debate. Now if only you could out enough time to go with the many links!
Great roundup. Thanks.
Let us generalize about right-liberals and libertarians of various stripes (I might be described as paleo-libertarian, but the concept still seems to me to be in development, and I dislike all liberalism):
Insofar as they are fine with a determinism of the “free market” economic conduct, they are wrong:
by this I mean a view that the market is incompatible with ethics. “Efficiency” is NEVER to be valued above morality. The “market” has NO “inner logic.”
Thus a good society is built upon the morality of its people, and culture is more important than politics and the construction of economic structures.
Market-Determinism, it might be called, is anti-human, just as collectivism is anti-human (Ayn Rand was right about the Soviet Union and wrong about herself).
Markets come from society. They are social institutions, flowing from law and custom. A market mechanism punishes inefficiency – great. But morality and family (and from family, tribe, and from tribe, nation, if a nation is not to have large-scale internal conflict) must be the foundational basis of organizing influence upon a polis.
Chris,
Absolutely.
I have one issue with this debate – it seems too narrowly framed. Although I admire distributism, I don’t really regard myself as one. It’s a little narrow in its focus. And the Austrians are a little kooky and fringe. The real argument is between Catholics who support the postwar experiment in Christian democracy (which, as the pope says, is very close to social democracy in its economic aspects), and the resurgent laissez-faire liberalism that held sway long before Hayek started worrying about welfare states and dictators.
I’m curious about something and would like to it throw something out here. I am not very well read on economics, but I’m under the impression there are no major true laissez-faire capitalist voices out there. My impression is that most everyone acknowledges a role of the government in the economy, and that the debate is really one of degree and type of involvement. Is that a fair assessment?
resurgent laissez-faire liberalism
The Libertarian Party is good for 0.7% of the national vote. Dr. Paul won about 5 1/2% of the Republican primary and caucus ballots two years ago; Alan Keyes once did about as well.
MM,
If you really want to talk about real, current alternatives in the current political and economic landscape, I’m not clear that Christian Democracy or even Social Democracy are much on the table either.
If I were to venture a guess though, I think that the appeal of Distributism for many Catholic readers/writers is that:
a) It is a specifically Catholic phenomenon, which Social Democracy is not and Christian Democracy only partly is and
b) For many Catholics, I think that the European example of Christian Democracy and Social Democracy in the post-war years is seen as tainted by what seems to have followed naturally from it: a breakdown of the communal in favor of the individual, and a relationship between individual and state replacing other more subsidiary relationships.
Distributism, in it more communitarian forms, appeals to those who might be more receptive to ideas of Christian Democracy if they hadn’t seen how it worked out in reality. In that Distributism has (or can have) communitarian elements, yet lacks the centralizing and statist impulses of Christian Democracy, its fans hope that it would fair better.
Regarding a supposedly resurgent laissez-faire liberalism….since when exactly? Maybe in the time of McKinley and Taft, but certainly not since the first large-scale American centralizations, which began with Wilson (who could make W. Bush look like the head of the ACLU) and continued with the New Deal and the Great Society and continues right on up to the corporatist spirit and value transferrence of….well, today’s Republicans and Democrats (although, hey, maybe the big banks and companies and major foundations and Wall Street crowds will give a lot less to leftist parties and causes this year, given the economy – typically they fill up those coffers).
The real argument is, increasinly, between our elites (government, media, big business, big public sector labor unions, ethnic activists, those that transfer instead of create value) and the folks really getting hammered – small business owners, family farms, manufacturers, ect (ie people that make our economy hum and don’t want to think too much about politics as they raise their families). Douthat hinted at this yesterday: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/06/opinion/06douthat.html?_r=1&ref=rossdouthat
My impression is that most everyone acknowledges a role of the government in the economy, and that the debate is really one of degree and type of involvement. Is that a fair assessment?
I’d say so. These days even anarchists acknowledge a role for government.
Chris,
Thanks for this excellent overview!
Many of you know that I am intimately involved in this dispute. I was a contributor to the Distributist Review, and was unceremoniously dumped when I began to take more libertarian positions.
Indeed I have been characterized as a “Distributarian” for my attempt to reconcile the two positions (and I thank you for including my old article, my first attempt at that).
I have been fascinated with the work of Hayek and Ropke, and I have come to believe ever-more strongly in the positive goodness of economic liberty. I think my evolution is quite similar to David Jones’, in that it is impossible for me not to acknowledge what the Austrians get right.
Those who want to learn more about my perspective are also invited to read:
http://joeahargrave.wordpress.com/2010/08/02/markets-and-morality-ron-paul-and-wilhelm-ropke/
http://joeahargrave.wordpress.com/2010/05/07/the-distributist-manifesto/
Blackadder,
Yes I am in CL. Drop me an email if you desire.
The Distributists err when they claim the Austrians are a bunch of heretics. In Catholic Social Doctrine there is the principle of the “Autonomy of the Temporal Order”. The Church does not mandate we embrace a specific economic (or political) model. The Church has been critical of both Socialism and Capitalism in the past, but also recognizes that we live in a global economy today. The prudential application of moral principles can be applied in both a Distributist and Capitalist economic model.
Actually, the charge is that the Austrians deny that the Church has any sort of teaching role in economic matters (and the concomitant claim that economics is completely separate from ethics). The Church does not mandate any particular order for all polities, but it does provide general principles.
(and *affirm* the concomitant claim that economics is completely separate from ethics).
Let me also say that I agree with Johnathan Jones about the importance of culture. We cannot have Locke without Burke. We cannot have freedom without values. We cannot have liberty without Christ!
But having said all that, I believe many of the critics of economic liberalism undermine the free-will that is inherent in human nature, that is a property of the souls God gave us. It is free-will that bestows a dignity upon man above all of the animals; it is free-will that makes us moral beings. To undermine free-will by attempting to micromanage the economy is to degrade humanity, in my opinion. There should certainly be a framework, but within it, there should be as much freedom as possible.
I think we are voluntary collectivists by nature. So I reject involuntary collectivism as well as voluntary individualism. And I think Christianity is ultimately voluntary collectivism, and what we ought to be working towards.
Excellent. Thanks for taking the time to put all that together – I hope to get through it all someday.
I think a great point made, that deserves to be mentioned again, is that the issue is morality, virtue and character.
Austrians maybe right about the market (I happen to agree); however, men are not angels. Although the market is the preferred method for ferreting out problems, it fails without Church (conscience) and government (fair broker). The problems we face are that we do not have a church in this country, we have churches and although there is really only One Church in truth, we are not there yet. We also have to deal with the fact that centralized statist power necessarily attracts men of low character and questionable morality, if any. Therefore, the government is not a fair broker.
The government and the corporatists look out for each other at the expense of everyone else. This is what caused Jesus to flip tables in the Temple.
We need to have this debate; however, in order for it to be something more than an academic and theoretical one, we need to restore the US Constitution, apply subsidiarity (federalism) and restore the moral order – first within ourselves, our Church, our communities and then elect men of character as our representatives. Then this discussion can have practical results.
In the current corporatist-statist paradigm neither Austrian theory, nor Distributism have any place. We are given the option of Socialism leading to Communism leading to an evil oligarchy and reducing us to serfs (slaves), or Capitalism leading to corporate usurers being in control leading to an oligarchy and reducing us to employees (slaves). The result is the same either way.
Me thinks the majority of people given the latter two choices, would prefer either of the former choices as an economic system for this country.
In meaning that culture is more important than politics, and that the family is the very foundation of a good society, it should also be noted that the strands of activist statism and liberalism (because even right-liberalism is an invitation to statism, as “freedom” is isolating and people become open to state-sponsored communion, and so I use liberalism to mean “equal freedom”, as enforced equality is left-liberalism) invite hubris. Protection against this is the genius of Madison in Federalist 10, writing that a dim view of human nature is most reasonable for the conduct of public affairs. “The good life of man” he traced to the Greeks, who asked not what kind of society can we mold but how can we mold ouselves to a concept of the good. Such (proper!) questions are why literary insight matters so much to governmental organization – as governmental organization should be concerned with following the good order of souls, which will always gravitate towards communion (hopefully in the Eucharist), no matter their stated desires (and so I agree about humans being “voluntary collectivists).”
Actually, the charge is that the Austrians deny that the Church has any sort of teaching role in economic matters (and the concomitant claim that economics is completely separate from ethics).
The Austrian position is more limited than this. Here, for example, is Woods:
The confusion arises, I think, from the fact that Catholics often make moral claims which presuppose certain factual assumptions. These assumptions can seem so obvious that a person doesn’t even realize they are there. It just seems like straight morality. So when an Austrian denies the conclusion and says it goes beyond the Church’s competence, it sounds like he is denying a moral teaching.
Blackadder: Do the Austrians claim that economics is purely descriptive? If so, then on what basis do they make normative claims?
Medicine or pharmaceuticals is a product of art subordinate to biology — it’s not exactly a good analogy since all human transactions are moral in nature and cannot be studied in abstraction of their morality. One cannot say that these are just our observations about how operate work in the “marketplace” and they are morally neutral. If economics were just like physics or biology, one could claim the Church has no competence to criticize. But it’s not.
“We cannot have Locke without Burke.”
That’s a good argument for getting rid of Burke.
Joe H. Says, “We cannot have Locke without Burke.”
Why would we want Locke at all?
In America, we’re stuck with Locke, and I don’t think he was all bad.
@ John C.M.
LOL
…Locke, Stocke, and Two Smoking Barrels!
(Couldn’t resist)
It’s not longer a matter of will, intention, rationality, etc.? We’re just stuck with him?
Well, I think Locke is a part of the American political tradition via the founding fathers and particularly Jefferson.
So no, I don’t think you can just will the legacy of Locke’s ideas out of the American political consciousness.
Locke’s influence on the Founding is overrated. Locke was but one of many writers that were quoted and cited in the literature of the time, but if you look at the philosophy of the men who truly formed our republic – Madison, Hamilton, Adams, etc – he was not a formative influence in any meaningful way.
And how did we even get onto this discussion in the first place? We make some funny detours around here.
David & BA,
CL as in Communion and Liberation?
One thing that strikes me as peculiar about the point of origin of this discussion is your identification of ‘Austrian’ economics as the counterpoint to certain trends in Catholic social thought. ‘Austrian’ economics is an odd and controversial set of conceptions and not accepted by aught but a small minority of macroeconomists with an affinity for libertarian notions of justice.
Art Deco is right.
jonathanjones02 & DarwinCatholic – All brilliant comments and observations. I agree with them, I think.
Joe – Blosser referred me over to your blog. Wow, great stuff. You and I will be talking I am sure. I will definitely read the links you provided above. I am especially interested in learning more about Ropke’s thought. If memory serves me correctly ISI publishes some of his works or at least book(s) about his thought. At this moment I am reading the foundational texts of Distributism. I also what to read the newer books of Distributism that the Distributist Review Press is putting out. I also desire to read more Robert Nisbet, Russell Kirk, & Karl Polanyi. Maybe I can find time for Ropke as well. You might find this article of interest.
http://www.mmisi.org/ir/41_01/carlson.pdf
PB – I agree with you.
American Knight – Brilliant comments as well. I would slightly differ with you on that it is possible to find small ways to live the Distributist lifestyle in our time. Refer to the works and thought of Wendell Berry, Eric Brende, Rod Dreher, Caleb Stegall, etc. The work and thought of John Médaille and Richard Aleman are especially helpful in this regard. Refer to the Aleman’s recent talk at the Chesterton conference. I am not sure it’s available yet though.
http://chesterton.org/2010conference.htm
Maybe he will be kind enough to provide the text of the talk to us. Refer to his podcast interview though on Uncommon Sense #17.
http://uncommonsense.libsyn.com/index.php?post_id=573724
John Médaille – As a 2001 IRPS grad (last class under Bushman) from UD I salute you. Thank you for all your years of work advocating Distributist thought. What you and others have done with the Distributist Review is simply beautiful. I am really excited about where DR is going.
WJ, John & Joe – I prefer Burke over Locke… I wonder what Russell Kirk has to say about Locke? I would also remind folks of Masonic influence on Locke’s thought. Blosser is now beating his head on the table. hehe
http://ressourcement.blogspot.com/2005/09/freemasonry-and-america-part-iii.html
Tito – yes CL means Communion and Liberation in my case.
What concerns me about the Austrians or anarcho capitalists, especially Rothbard’s and even Lew Rockwell’s thought as far as I have read or heard them, is this… They never it seems to me distinguish between the local, state and federal governments. All government is bad, all the time. This is simply not reasonable. This is not in line with Catholic Social Ethics either. Things should be handled at the lowest level possible (subsidiarity) – individual, family, neighborhood, parish, community, state, nation, etc. Government is not evil though, which is the presupposition of the Austrians. I reject that. Government is necessary for the common good in a fallen world.
In addition to the above link that I provided here are some others. Here are just some of the historic conversations I have had with Blosser and others on the influence Masonic thought on our Founding Fathers refer below.
http://ressourcement.blogspot.com/2007/09/george-washington-and-freemasonry.html
http://ressourcement.blogspot.com/2005/11/how-charles-carroll-influenced-us.html
Locke and others are talked about in the comments of this last link.
One could argue the liberalism (classical?) that they Austrians argue for is related to this topic as well.
As an attempt to gently guide us back to the topic of the main post. If you had to put me in a box politically I would state I am a traditional conservative, or to use Rod Dreher’s term – a crunchy conservative. Refer to his book, Crunch Cons. Libertarianism for me is like a shoe one size too small. I am very attracted to it at times, but the shoe just doesn’t fit. I like what the Austrians have to say about the monetary policy (i.e. fiat currency & the Federal Reserve), but I can’t swallow their promotion of anarchy, either in the economic or political spheres. I agree with the comments above about the importance of morality and values. A government can enact moral and just laws. A government can regulate the market for the common good. I would just argue this needs to be done at the lowest level possible. I share the same concerns of many above about collectivism.
I hear you David. I think matters would be helped if we considered that there is a difference between:
1) “government” and “the state”, and
2) “the state” and “the State”
Re. 1, I think it is arguable that “the state” – the modern state as we know it – is a relatively recent invention. It is a permanent set of coercive institutions operated by professional bureaucrats. Governments, I think, are the sum of administrative institutions. At least that’s how some people would draw the distinction. There are anarchists who say they are “anti-state” but not “anti-government”, and that’s how they do it (crudely, roughly). Personally, I don’t see how you have a government without at least a minimal state – the “minarchist” position.
I’m closer to minarchism these days, but I do see a positive role for government in providing benefits and incentives to inherently good and socially beneficial activity. Really I’d just like to go back to city-states, in my fantasy land 🙂 Catholic city-states… like medieval Venice… I think those accord much better with CST than say, the reign of the Sun King.
Re. 2, here much confusion arises, especially among Catholics. I think when the pre-councilar popes, especially Leo XIII, are speaking of “the State” with a capital S, they are speaking about something somewhat different than say, our federal bureaucracy. When I read Aristotle’s Politics, for instance, it seems rather clear to me that in many places in which “State” appears, we might use the word “society” or even “civil society” – as a sphere distinct from coercive authority. And I see a similarity in Leo’s encyclicals. It could mean both, it could mean either.
So “State” capital S seems to suggest a great deal more, and at the same time, a great deal less from the coercive power.
I could be wrong I suppose. But if I’m right, then it puts some of the social teaching in a new light.
Joe – I am curious to get your judgment of Carlson’s article on Karl Polanyi when you get a free moment.
David,
I have the tab open. That means it will be read today 🙂
It looks fascinating, and so yes I will comment!
David,
I read the article. Polanyi’s arguments are very familiar to me, and indeed I used to share many of them. At the root I still share them, but I think many of the individual ideas are based in a selective and incomplete historical narrative.
“Laissez-faire” is a slippery term. But the argument that production for exchange isn’t “natural”, i.e. Aristotle’s argument, is just not obviously true. It makes sense in Aristotle’s world, but then, so did slavery and the total subjugation of women. At the same time, Aristotle recognized the implications of technological progress in a very poetic and perhaps unintentional way when he wrote in Book I of the Politics, justifying the reduction of a man to an instrument of production:
“For if every instrument could accomplish its own work, obeying or anticipating the will of others, like the statues of Daedalus, or the tripods of Hephaestus, which, says the poet,
of their own accord entered the assembly of the Gods;
if, in like manner, the shuttle would weave and the plectrum touch the lyre without a hand to guide them, chief workmen would not want servants, nor masters slaves.”
Arguably our modern technology has brought us far closer to this fantastic ideal than Aristotle could have ever imagined. So those who use Aristotle to try and justify reactionary economic arrangements today would do well to realize that Aristotle was something of a technological determinist himself.
Next, the idea that there was this marvelous social order on the eve of the 19th century that laissez-faire broke apart forcibly is only partially true. These processes had been taking place for centuries, and it is arguable that it began with the massive labor shortages caused by the Black Death.
It also ignores the rise of commercial capitalism in the Middle Ages, and particularly in the Italian city-states, in which there were limited-liability contracts, profitable lending (some would call it usury), and other financial instruments to encourage economic growth. The maritime trading empires of Venice and Genoa especially were built on the “unnatural” form of wealth-getting.
Alongside commerce and trade existed the Church, whose morality was the foundation upon which all was built. Leo XIII recognized this as a great example of the Church’s positive contribution to civilization in Libertas:
” Neither does the Church condemn those who, if it can be done without violation of justice, wish to make their country independent of any foreign or despotic power. Nor does she blame those who wish to assign to the State the power of self-government, and to its citizens the greatest possible measure of prosperity. The Church has always most faithfully fostered civil liberty, and this was seen especially in Italy, in the municipal prosperity, and wealth, and glory which were obtained at a time when the salutary power of the Church has spread, without opposition, to all parts of the State.” (46)
Here, btw, is another example of Leo’s use of the word “State” meaning something different than our use of the word “state”. Clearly here “State” means more than the coercive power and its bureaucratic appendages.
This brings me to the last critique I would make of Polanyi: his belief that the artificial, bureaucratic interventions of the welfare-regulatory regime somehow “restored balance” to a social order upset by laissez-faire. I can see how at the time these institutions and interventions were seen as necessary; I believe a century of historical experience has shown that they make the problem worse. The state cannot replace local, organic, spontaneous institutions created through a shared culture and values. Instead it becomes something like a powerful magnet that, through sheer force, draws all of the atomized individuals to it in an undifferentiated mass.
And the labor unions have proven to be a reactionary force as well. I think they actually prevent the Distributist goal of widespread ownership by bolstering illusions in wage labor. Nisbet mentions “unions and cooperatives” as if they are part and parcel of the same process; I say that the latter will really only begin to thrive as the former finally disappear. I see them as rival visions for improving the lot of the common man.
[…] Economics Universal? I’ve been reading with interest some of the materials David Jones and Chris Blosser posted the other day about the debates between Tom Woods and Tom Storck over economics and Catholic Social Thought. From […]
the Daily Bell
Let’s Talk About Natural Rights by Dr. Tibor Machan
When various skeptics question the soundness of the American political system, one of their targets is the idea of human nature. After all, the founders took their political philosophy mainly from John Locke who thought human nature does exist and, based on what we know of it and a few other evident matters, we can reach the conclusion that all human beings have certain rights. This is what is meant by holding that there are natural rights and that they are pre-legal, not a creation of government…
http://www.thedailybell.com/1357/Let-Us-Talk-About-Natural-Rights.html
[…] or praise for this post ought to go to Christopher Blosser and David Jones for their excellent overview and commentary on the ongoing political/economic dispute between Catholic Distributists and Catholic […]
[…] or praise for this post ought to go to Christopher Blosser and David Jones for their excellent overview and commentary on the ongoing political/economic dispute between Catholic Distributists and Catholic […]
[…] concerned about where the U.S. Dollar, our economy and country are headed. This post is related to an earlier post that Christopher Blosser and I c0-posted on the Austrian School of Economics. Let me state from the […]
[…] Thomas Woods and His Critics, The Austrian vs. Distributist Debate Among Catholics […]
“It’s not an either/or solution, it’s a both/and solution. Test everything, hold fast to what is good in both camps.”
I have been saying this very thing for a couple of years. Both “camps” seem to me to be excessively doctrinal (and academic) in their writings and debates; so much so that I felt the need to withdraw and take a “time out” to digest it all.
It’s hard enough for non-academics to absorb this stuff without the the exchange of missiles between the two sides.
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