Thursday, March 28, AD 2024 6:12am

Some 500 Years Ago Like An Abduction In the Night, The Virgin Mary Was Taken From Many Christians

For many Christians today, the thought that the leaders of the Protestant Reformation believed in the Immaculate Conception of Mary or her bodily Assumption into heaven would seem ludicrous, even more bewildering would be the devotions many of the Reformation’s leaders had for the Blessed Mother. Believe or not it, they did. In this month of December when Catholics celebrate three feast day’s commemorating the Mother of our Lord, perhaps it is time to remind our separated brethren of the truths their founder’s believed.

Sometime ago when I was writing my book, The Tide is Turning Toward  Catholicism,  I showed a friend of mine, who is an Evangelical, a homily about the Virgin Mary delivered in the 1500s. I asked him who gave that homily, “probably some pope,” he exclaimed. No, I said it was Martin Luther. He replied, “Dave I trust in almost everything you say, but I am going to have to call you out on this one. I mean isn’t that what the Reformation was all about, ending superstitions like those about Mary?” His mouth dropped when I showed him the passages. I am sure many of today’s Evangelicals, especially of the Calvinist lineage, would have the same reaction.

He also had the same reaction when I told him that most of the leaders of the Reformation were that era’s liberal thinkers. They were the radicals of their time. My friend, again very astonished, reminded me that Evangelicals are by and large very conservative in their viewpoints. I told him so are LDS members (Mormons.) I asked him if he thought Joseph Smith was a conservative. “He was a wide eyed crazy liberal,” my friend replied. I think he got the correlation, but I am sure it was a hard idea to swallow.

While the leaders of the Reformation, by and large believed in the Catholic Church’s teachings about the Blessed Mother, it didn’t take long before the next generation of leaders became even more rabid against the Church resulting in not only the diminished role of Mary but in the desecration of the many monuments built to her in what became Protestant countries. The sad tale of Walsingham, England was epitomized in the poem The Wrecks of Walsingham by Sir Philip Howard. The devotional site was destroyed by an angry mob. Seeing images of the Mother of Jesus taken away, battered and destroyed one cannot help but think that the persecuted Catholics of that era might have uttered Jesus’ admonition against those who harm the little ones, “better that he would have had a millstone hung around their neck.”

Modern Catholic Apologetics details the prominent role the Early Christians knew Mary had by Scriptures verses such as Luke 1:26-34. In this verse Kecharitomene (hail full of grace) would have known by Greek speakers as a very rarely used phrase that describes an event of unparalleled magnitude. Jesus referring to his mother as “woman” would have been strange to say the least (John 2:1-12, John 19:25-27.) Yet, he was referring to the “woman” who is the mother of us all.  Remember it was because of the Blessed Mother that Jesus performed his first miracle. You also might recall that later, near the very end of that same gospel (John’s Gospel,) Jesus reminds John that while he is to care for his mother, in essence by calling her woman, Jesus is reminding us that she is the mother of us all. The woman of Genesis 3:15 who would bring the redeemer into the world is the same woman whose heel would stomp at Satan’s body and all of his empty promises. Yet, most Evangelical Bible scholars are taught this is some sort of modern Catholic invention, instead of the truth that this teaching came from the Early Church Fathers.

Some years ago when I was just out of Graduate School and working a job that had odd hours and not much joy in my eyes, I took solace in the words of the Rev Charles Stanley, who seemed to be on a few talk radio stations as I traveled over 40 minutes each night on my way home. The dearth of Catholic radio and the occasional need for something other than Led Zeppelin to sooth my nerves steered me to Dr Stanley. He would often comment on liberal Christians who didn’t believe in certain key teaching of Christian doctrine. “If they won’t believe it, ask them what else they don’t believe,” chimed Dr Stanley. What else they don’t believe, indeed! Sadly, for Dr Stanley and his faithful it would not only be the role of the Blessed Mother but something extremely key to Jesus Himself; the Eucharist. It was John chapter 6 all over again, and they walked away.

If anything the loss of Mary to any Christian is a travesty, especially Evangelicals who are by and large very sincere people who take their faith very seriously. If most Catholics took their faith as seriously as most Evangelicals, we would all be better for it. For the 16th century Dutch critic of the Catholic Church, Erasmus, the idea that 1,500 years after the fact, the Catholic Church was in need of a German monk to change all what was known to be holy seemed ludicrous. The fact that the Blessed Mother, who was revered by all leaders of the Reformation, needed to be by and large abolished seemed a sign of sheer madness. I recall hearing one woman who came into the Church exclaim, “Even as a young woman I recall thinking if this woman was a virgin and bore the messiah, why is it that we only trod her out once year.  Surely God would continue to use someone this special. We ought to look at her as the Catholics do.”

Imagine you had a friend who was blind and loved a good bottle of wine. He didn’t ask for much in life and didn’t complain about his situation, but he loved a good bottle of wine. He would travel near and far to find a wine shop that catered to his acquired tastes. What if he later found out that there was a wine shop right next door? It would have met all of his needs with far less the hassle. He would feel cheated, and so will our separated brethren when they find out what they were missing.

I recall a talk the Catholic convert and traveling speaker Steve Ray gave describing a conversation he had with his wife after they came into the Church. While exclaiming her joy at entering the Church, she said she felt a little cheated for having never known the truths of the Catholic Church and the beauty contained within the Mass and the simplicity of the Blessed Mother, earlier in life. “Why didn’t someone tell us sooner,” she frustratingly exclaimed. Someday there will be millions of faith filled Christians who will say the same thing. We can do something about it; we can approach them with love and explain the 2,000 year Teachings of the Catholic Church and the special role of the Mother of Jesus. If that doesn’t work, we can always pray and ironically enough we have a special form of prayer for just this kind of emergency. It is called the Rosary!

Davc Hartline

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Donald R. McClarey
Admin
Wednesday, December 9, AD 2009 10:25am

“The North is full of tangled things and texts and aching eyes
And dead is all the innocence of anger and surprise,
And Christian killeth Christian in a narrow dusty room,
And Christian dreadeth Christ that hath a newer face of doom,
And Christian hateth Mary that God kissed in Galilee,”

Aegis
Aegis
Wednesday, December 9, AD 2009 1:52pm

Mr. Hartline,

Can you provide us with some specific examples of Reformation leaders revering the Blessed Virgin Mary?

Donald R. McClarey
Admin
Wednesday, December 9, AD 2009 2:00pm

Aegis, go to the link below in regard to Martin Luther and Mary.

http://www.davidmacd.com/catholic/martin_luther_on_mary.htm

Todd
Wednesday, December 9, AD 2009 6:49pm

Even more amazing, Christians of that age needed no papal declaration for these aspects of the Blessed Mother.

As for the vehemence against Rome, yes, it is true that leaders and people chose to distance themselves from Roman practices. It’s not so different today: many Catholic conservatives are deeply distrustful of anything that looks like Protestantism or Anglicanism or even Eastern Orthodoxy. Indeed, being called a Protestant is, in some places, a worse epithet than being called a devil. In a way, it’s amazing some Catholics have stilled adhered to the Lord’s Prayer.

Donald R. McClarey
Admin
Wednesday, December 9, AD 2009 7:52pm

“Indeed, being called a Protestant is, in some places, a worse epithet than being called a devil. In a way, it’s amazing some Catholics have stilled adhered to the Lord’s Prayer.”

Todd, where do you find the energy to construct so many straw men?

Dennis
Dennis
Wednesday, December 9, AD 2009 11:28pm

The main take-home point of the Reformation is that there is no longer any source of “infallibility” outside of Scripture. Neither Roman tradition nor the views of the Reformers could be held as infallible. Luther was wrong on many points, Calvin too.

Modern day Protestants have inherited the concept of sola scriptura more than they’ve remained faithful to the beliefs of the Reformers. Scripture does not demand the veneration of Mary. There is no evidence that the early church as a whole held to the immaculate conception and assumption. These were made dogma fairly recently: immaculate conception (1854); assumption (1950).

Pax Christi
Pax Christi
Thursday, December 10, AD 2009 2:02am

Todd, are you channeling the founding Protestants in making up stuff?

afl
afl
Thursday, December 10, AD 2009 5:00am

It appears one can present many references to Mary, Mother of Our Lord, and her veneration, yet it continues to amaze me of those who try to diminish her role throughout the Bible and the tenent of the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption.

Mack Hall
Mack Hall
Thursday, December 10, AD 2009 6:28am

Thanks again, Dave, for placing before us bits of history that have been forgotten or deliberately obscured. The purported Reformation was a cultural and historical disaster, with evil men culling out a rump faith without devotions, the saints, the Blessed Mother, or Christmas. What an inadequate legacy to leave to the good, loving sincere Protestants of today who have never been told the truths.

Roger
Roger
Thursday, December 10, AD 2009 8:30am

Jesus loved his mother and so should we.

millerfamily3
Thursday, December 10, AD 2009 8:31am

Dennis –

You are overlooking the evidence of Marian devotion inherent in the Bible.

Who is it that told us that the Angel Gabriel greeted Mary as Kecharitomene (full of grace)? Luke. Luke was not one of the original 12 disciples – so from whom did Luke learn that Mary was full of grace? Luke is the author of Acts, and we learn in Acts that he was a student of Paul’s, and traveled with Paul. So, it was Paul who taught Luke this teaching. Now, Paul was not one of the original 12 disciples either. So from whom did Paul learn this? Well, we learn in certain later readings of the New Testament that Paul was taught by the early disciples and by Christ himself.

It is only logical that when we become baptized, and through baptism become members of Christ’s body, we inherit the parents of Christ. Who were Christ’s parents? Mary and God. Therefore, through baptism, our own parents are Mary and God. This is why we call everyone brother and sister – we are all part of one body and all sharing the same parents.

For proof of this, Paul goes on in Galatians 4:31 to tell us that we are (through baptism) “children not of the slave woman but of the free born woman. Here he is referencing the slave woman as a woman born into sin, whereas the free born woman is one who was not born in submission to sin and later freed, but one who was free from birth which would only be possible if she were cleansed of original sin prior to her birth.

Tito Edwards
Thursday, December 10, AD 2009 8:58am

I’m not defending Todd here, but I personally am upset when I see many parishes being “protestantized” in architecture and practice.

Robert
Robert
Thursday, December 10, AD 2009 11:30am

This brings to mind something I believe Mother Teresa said: I wan’t to love Mary like Jesus does and to love Jesus like Mary does…

How much more of a connection between two people can you get? It is only with a blind eye that people will neglect that true love….

Todd
Thursday, December 10, AD 2009 11:44am

I’ll have to dissent from Dennis’ point: without dogmatic declaration, Eastern Christians have venerated Mary through the Immaculate Conception and the Dormition (Assumption) for centuries–to this day.

I’m also a doubter on the original line of thinking here. Doctrines or venerations of the Virgin were not foremost in the minds of people of the Reformation period. As is true today, Mary was used as a tool on both sides, either a badge of orthodoxy or a point of differentiation.

The Reformation is far more complex than just an expression against the veneration of Mary or any of the other saints.

It was in fact the excesses of the Chair of Peter that put Europe to the tipping point. Not only did Martin Luther continue to venerate Mary to his death, but he continued to see himself as a loyal Christian. Human pride, being what it is, hardened the hearts of people on both sides. The Blessed Mother, like many of those living in the 16th and 17th century, were just innocent bystanders in tussles over greed, scandal, tribalism, privilege, power, and whatnot. A unified Christianity may well have been able to bring all of Asia to Christ in the 1600’s, had it not been for the wasted energies fighting Christian wars.

There’s a lot to lament in the Reformation, but let’s acknowledge a dollop of blame falls to Rome. Far from beinga pot shot, that’s simple acknowledgement of fault.

Mike Petrik
Mike Petrik
Thursday, December 10, AD 2009 12:03pm

As much as I thought Todd’s earlier comment was unfairly cartoonish, I have to say I think his last post was spot on. Plenty of blame to go around for the Reformation.

wayne
wayne
Thursday, December 10, AD 2009 12:58pm

Someone mentioned that Jesus loved Mary and so should we. Does Jesus love her more than the next guy? Second, i never met Mary, so how can i love her. Jesus loved his disciples, should i adore them.? Mary is just another personality in the bible. The bible is about Jesus, from fron to back. Some weird religion has made Mary a central figure, even a queen in heaven. That was done to keep peoples eyes off Jesus. Now lets see…HUMMMMM..whos job is it to keep us from Jesus? Could it be….SATAN? The devils pet religion is doing a bang up job.

Donald R. McClarey
Admin
Thursday, December 10, AD 2009 1:04pm

“The devils pet religion is doing a bang up job.”

I applaud you Wayne. It is almost refreshing to see that ignorant, unashamed anti-Catholic bigotry is still alive and well.

Donald R. McClarey
Admin
Thursday, December 10, AD 2009 1:14pm

Wayne, in addition to the documents written and collected by members of the Catholic Church and known as the New Testament, you might wish to consider the comments of these men who lived a few centuries after Christ regarding Mary. I assume their names will be unfamiliar to you, but a little time using google and you will learn all about them.

Irenaeus

“The Virgin Mary, being obedient to his word, received from an angel the glad tidings that she would bear God” (Against Heresies, 5:19:1 [A.D. 189]).

Hippolytus

“[T]o all generations they [the prophets] have pictured forth the grandest subjects for contemplation and for action. Thus, too, they preached of the advent of God in the flesh to the world, his advent by the spotless and God-bearing (theotokos) Mary in the way of birth and growth, and the manner of his life and conversation with men, and his manifestation by baptism, and the new birth that was to be to all men, and the regeneration by the laver [of baptism]” (Discourse on the End of the World 1 [A.D. 217]).

Gregory the Wonderworker

“For Luke, in the inspired Gospel narratives, delivers a testimony not to Joseph only, but also to Mary, the Mother of God, and gives this account with reference to the very family and house of David” (Four Homilies 1 [A.D. 262]).

“It is our duty to present to God, like sacrifices, all the festivals and hymnal celebrations; and first of all, [the feast of] the Annunciation to the holy Mother of God, to wit, the salutation made to her by the angel, ‘Hail, full of grace!’” (ibid., 2).

Peter of Alexandria

“They came to the church of the most blessed Mother of God, and ever-virgin Mary, which, as we began to say, he had constructed in the western quarter, in a suburb, for a cemetery of the martyrs” (The Genuine Acts of Peter of Alexandria [A.D. 305]).

“We acknowledge the resurrection of the dead, of which Jesus Christ our Lord became the firstling; he bore a body not in appearance but in truth derived from Mary the Mother of God” (Letter to All Non-Egyptian Bishops 12 [A.D. 324]).

Methodius

“While the old man [Simeon] was thus exultant, and rejoicing with exceeding great and holy joy, that which had before been spoken of in a figure by the prophet Isaiah, the holy Mother of God now manifestly fulfilled” (Oration on Simeon and Anna 7 [A.D. 305]).

“Hail to you forever, you virgin Mother of God, our unceasing joy, for unto you do I again return. . . . Hail, you fount of the Son’s love for man. . . . Wherefore, we pray you, the most excellent among women, who boast in the confidence of your maternal honors, that you would unceasingly keep us in remembrance. O holy Mother of God, remember us, I say, who make our boast in you, and who in august hymns celebrate your memory, which will ever live, and never fade away” (ibid., 14).

Cyril of Jerusalem

“The Father bears witness from heaven to his Son. The Holy Spirit bears witness, coming down bodily in the form of a dove. The archangel Gabriel bears witness, bringing the good tidings to Mary. The Virgin Mother of God bears witness” (Catechetical Lectures 10:19 [A.D. 350]).

Ephraim the Syrian

“Though still a virgin she carried a child in her womb, and the handmaid and work of his wisdom became the Mother of God” (Songs of Praise 1:20 [A.D. 351]).

Athanasius

“The Word begotten of the Father from on high, inexpressibly, inexplicably, incomprehensibly, and eternally, is he that is born in time here below of the Virgin Mary, the Mother of God” (The Incarnation of the Word of God 8 [A.D. 365]).

Epiphanius of Salamis

“Being perfect at the side of the Father and incarnate among us, not in appearance but in truth, he [the Son] reshaped man to perfection in himself from Mary the Mother of God through the Holy Spirit” (The Man Well-Anchored 75 [A.D. 374]).

Ambrose of Milan

“The first thing which kindles ardor in learning is the greatness of the teacher. What is greater than the Mother of God? What more glorious than she whom Glory Itself chose?” (The Virgins 2:2[7] [A.D. 377]).

Gregory of Nazianz

“If anyone does not agree that holy Mary is Mother of God, he is at odds with the Godhead” (Letter to Cledonius the Priest 101 [A.D. 382]).

Jerome

“As to how a virgin became the Mother of God, he [Rufinus] has full knowledge; as to how he himself was born, he knows nothing” (Against Rufinus 2:10 [A.D. 401]).

“Do not marvel at the novelty of the thing, if a Virgin gives birth to God” (Commentaries on Isaiah 3:7:15 [A.D. 409]).

Theodore of Mopsuestia

“When, therefore, they ask, ‘Is Mary mother of man or Mother of God?’ we answer, ‘Both!’ The one by the very nature of what was done and the other by relation” (The Incarnation 15 [A.D. 405]).

Cyril of Alexandria

“I have been amazed that some are utterly in doubt as to whether or not the holy Virgin is able to be called the Mother of God. For if our Lord Jesus Christ is God, how should the holy Virgin who bore him not be the Mother of God?” (Letter to the Monks of Egypt 1 [A.D. 427]).

“This expression, however, ‘the Word was made flesh’ [John 1:14], can mean nothing else but that he partook of flesh and blood like to us; he made our body his own, and came forth man from a woman, not casting off his existence as God, or his generation of God the Father, but even in taking to himself flesh remaining what he was. This the declaration of the correct faith proclaims everywhere. This was the sentiment of the holy Fathers; therefore they ventured to call the holy Virgin ‘the Mother of God,’ not as if the nature of the Word or his divinity had its beginning from the holy Virgin, but because of her was born that holy body with a rational soul, to which the Word, being personally united, is said to be born according to the flesh” (First Letter to Nestorius [A.D. 430]).

“And since the holy Virgin corporeally brought forth God made one with flesh according to nature, for this reason we also call her Mother of God, not as if the nature of the Word had the beginning of its existence from the flesh” (Third Letter to Nestorius [A.D. 430]).

“If anyone will not confess that the Emmanuel is very God, and that therefore the holy Virgin is the Mother of God, inasmuch as in the flesh she bore the Word of God made flesh [John 1:14]: let him be anathema” (ibid.).

John Cassian

“Now, you heretic, you say (whoever you are who deny that God was born of the Virgin), that Mary, the Mother of our Lord Jesus Christ, cannot be called the Mother of God, but the Mother only of Christ and not of God—for no one, you say, gives birth to one older than herself. And concerning this utterly stupid argument . . . let us prove by divine testimonies both that Christ is God and that Mary is the Mother of God” (On the Incarnation of Christ Against Nestorius 2:2 [A.D. 429]).

“You cannot then help admitting that the grace comes from God. It is God, then, who has given it. But it has been given by our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore the Lord Jesus Christ is God. But if he is God, as he certainly is, then she who bore God is the Mother of God” (ibid., 2:5).

Council of Ephesus

“We confess, then, our Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, perfect God and perfect man, of a rational soul and a body, begotten before all ages from the Father in his Godhead, the same in the last days, for us and for our salvation, born of Mary the Virgin according to his humanity, one and the same consubstantial with the Father in Godhead and consubstantial with us in humanity, for a union of two natures took place. Therefore we confess one Christ, one Son, one Lord. According to this understanding of the unconfused union, we confess the holy Virgin to be the Mother of God because God the Word took flesh and became man and from his very conception united to himself the temple he took from her” (Formula of Union [A.D. 431]).

Vincent of Lerins

“Nestorius, whose disease is of an opposite kind, while pretending that he holds two distinct substances in Christ, brings in of a sudden two persons, and with unheard-of wickedness would have two sons of God, two Christs,—one, God, the other, man; one, begotten of his Father, the other, born of his mother. For which reason he maintains that Saint Mary ought to be called, not the Mother of God, but the Mother of Christ” (The Notebooks 12[35] [A.D. 434]).

Gabriel Austin
Gabriel Austin
Thursday, December 10, AD 2009 2:42pm

Newman overs the topic pretty well in his reply to Pusey’s EIRENICON, republished as NEWMAN ON THE MOTHER OF GOD.

c matt
c matt
Thursday, December 10, AD 2009 3:11pm

The Bible is about Jesus from cover to cover?

Dude, what “bible” have you been reading?!?!

The true Bible is about God’s relationship to creation, man in particular, and His revelation of this relationship to man. It is about BOTH God and MAN. Part of that revelation includes revelation about the mother of the Second Person of the Trinity.

Your “bible” sounds a little abridged.

Dale Price
Dale Price
Thursday, December 10, AD 2009 3:16pm

Wayne, tell me you didn’t just quote the Church Lady. Unironically. Please….

Oh. You *did.*

Well, that’s…refreshing.

Charlie
Charlie
Thursday, December 10, AD 2009 4:02pm

“Seperated brethren”…you mean like my Protestant friends who said that they don’t want to talk to me anymore since I got baptised into the Church?

Jim S
Jim S
Thursday, December 10, AD 2009 4:28pm

It’s sad that so many Protestants like Wayne don’t do a little study of the early church since I think virtually all Protestant denominations recognize up through the Council of Ephesus. I’ve often gotten the impression that many modern Protestants seem to take the Bible and Creeds as things that came down from Heaven fully formed. If they would study the first four centuries and learn what a difficult time was had in sorting out the Canon from the rest of the writings and the making of the Creeds it would be most helpful, I believe.

wayne
wayne
Thursday, December 10, AD 2009 4:57pm

C-Matt doesnt seem to think the scriptures arent all about Christ. He must be a good catholic. Jesus said” search the scriptures, it is they that testify of me”. Dnald R love to quote men, catholic men, and then expect me to believe it as gospel. He takes it as gospel. The bible warns us that in the last times some will teach the doctrines of men as if they were gospel. The carnal man does not understand the things of the spirit, thats why they love the writings of men, because them they understand.Catholic men also wrote that there is no salvation outside the catholic church.Hogwash on top of hogwash.It dont surprise me that people still fall for this kind of stoneage cult religion. But, as my grandma used to say…it takes all kinds

Donald R. McClarey
Admin
Thursday, December 10, AD 2009 5:12pm

“Dnald R love to quote men, catholic men, and then expect me to believe it as gospel. He takes it as gospel.”

Sola Scriptura in all its primitive glory! Wayne, the New Testament was written by men, Catholic men. The Catholic Church determined what books to include as part of the New Testament, and what books to exclude. How did the “devil’s pet religion” as you so charmingly designate the Catholic Church, have the ability, and, more importantly, the authority to do this?

Tito Edwards
Thursday, December 10, AD 2009 5:19pm

Wayne correct me if I’m wrong, but did the Holy Bible drop down from Heaven written in American English?

As far as I know the first book of the New Testament was written around 60 A.D. and the last book written probably around 100-110 A.D. What happened during the time of Christ’s Resurrection in 33 A.D. up until 110 A.D.? Did Christians have the Holy Bible during that time?

Not to mention the fact that the Holy Bible wasn’t even the “Holy Bible” until the 16th century.

Please explain to me where I am wrong, etc.

wayne
wayne
Thursday, December 10, AD 2009 5:52pm

Hi Tito, befor the new test was all written down, it was word of mouth. But what does that have to do with anything? You must be a catholic, trying to justify a murderous corrupt organization for no other reason than you belong to it.

Aidan Clevinger
Aidan Clevinger
Thursday, December 10, AD 2009 6:01pm

Everyone,

I don’t want to be guilty of anti-Roman Catholocism. I am a Lutheran, but I have no hostility towards Catholics. I have a few questions, though:

1. Where in the Bible is the Bodily Assumption of the Virgin taught?

2. Where in the Bible does it say that we should pray to the Virgin Mary?

I don’t want to sound judgemental, but it seems to me that any doctrine that directs a person to someone other than God for salvation or justification is blasphemous. (I am not, however, a member of the Catholic Church and do not want to be guilty of misrepresenting her doctrine. Do I have the essential point right: that Roman Catholocism teaches that Mary can be prayed to, asked for help, etc.)?

Love in Christ,

Aidan

Tito Edwards
Thursday, December 10, AD 2009 6:01pm

Wayne,

It (the New Testament) wasn’t word of mouth. Why do you think the books in the Bible were called “letters” and “epistles”?

It seems you are corrupting facts of history.

If you did your own independent investigation you would be surprised at what you found.

Aidan Clevinger
Aidan Clevinger
Thursday, December 10, AD 2009 6:03pm

I would like to add that discussion is perfectly acceptable as long as it is done in civility. To all Protestants who are here to “bash” – in other words, defame – individual practitioners of the Catholic religion, you do not do any justice to God, who commands us in 1 Peter to give an answer to all who ask “in meekness and in fear”, NOT in hatred and bigotry. I submit that – as all of us worship the one true God, the Blessed Trinity – we should all treat each other as brothers and sisters and Christ.

wayne
wayne
Thursday, December 10, AD 2009 6:12pm

Adian, if you call pointing out fallacies in a religion as bashing, then close your eyes. Or pointing out fallacies in anything. You wouldnt have likes Jesus much either. He really socked it to them at times. Catholics give jesus lip service but their heart is far from him. The catholic church has taught its faithfull to look elsewhere for grace. i dont blame the individual catholic person. Hail Mary full of grace. She was at one time. But she awaits resurection like most everyone else.But, some folks are suckered into worshiping her. That why the catholic church discourages reading the bible. Cause of all their unscriptural teaching

Donald R. McClarey
Admin
Thursday, December 10, AD 2009 6:20pm

I note Wayne that you have not answered my question, but since you are an ignorant bigot I didn’t expect one, at least one that was intelligent.

Donald R. McClarey
Admin
Thursday, December 10, AD 2009 6:31pm

“1. Where in the Bible is the Bodily Assumption of the Virgin taught?

2. Where in the Bible does it say that we should pray to the Virgin Mary?”

As to one Aidan, nowhere. It is an early tradition and belief of the Catholic Church. Catholics do not rely on Sola Scriptura. The Church created the New Testament and not the other way around.

As to two Aidan, Catholics do not pray to Mary. We ask her to pray for us and to intercede for us with God. The Hail Mary prayer ends “Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.”

Donna V.
Donna V.
Thursday, December 10, AD 2009 7:24pm

I’ve always wondered why Protestants are so quick to denigrate Mary, to insist that she is no different from anybody else. She was chosen to be the mother of Jesus! And she accepted God’s will. That’s why we venerate her!

As Donald says, we do not pray to her or consider her equal to God. If the Catholic view of Mary seems improper to Protestants, from the Catholic standpoint, the Protestant view of the mother of Jesus seems very disrepectful.

Donna V.
Donna V.
Thursday, December 10, AD 2009 7:28pm

As a small child, I think I found Mary especially comforting. The thought of “God watching me” sometimes alarmed me (especially when I had been naughty). The thought of a kind, smiling lady praying for me in Heaven made me feel much better.

Tito Edwards
Thursday, December 10, AD 2009 7:29pm

Where inside the Bible does it say “Bible”?

Tito Edwards
Thursday, December 10, AD 2009 7:39pm

Wayne,

You haven’t answered nor rebutted any of the questions we posed to you? Why is that?

wayne
wayne
Thursday, December 10, AD 2009 8:42pm

Hi Donald and Tito, i had to go somewhere and just got back. Donald, very few, and i mean very few catholics stick their necks out and say that catholics wrote the new testament.I always thought it was written by people who knew jesus. yes, Paul knew Jesus. Now, in a mad atenpt to make the catholic church holy, you say the catholics wrote it.God used the early fathers of the church to put togeather a bible for us. He uses whom he will. Most people know that the catholic church didnt write the new test.cause it wasnt around.Well since then, the catholic church has shown the world what its about. It took up romes past time of killing christians. Directed from the Holy Office. HAHAHAHA. The catholic church uses holy names for its murderous offices. It even calls this pompus blasphemer Holy Father. And people are buying that.Lets see, what was that name Donald called me? ah yes, ignorant bigot. Well, at least i dont kiss the feet of idols and the rings of child molesters, and you wont catch me bowing down to a statue. but thanks anyway

Donald R. McClarey
Admin
Thursday, December 10, AD 2009 9:04pm

Wayne, still no answer, at least not an intelligent one. You are obviously completely ignorant of early Church history. The Catholic Church is the Church founded by Christ. The New Testament is a product of the Catholic Church just as much as the current catechism is. The historical record is crystal clear. You can deny it all you wish but you are railing against stubborn historical facts. As for the rest of your hate filled screed, it merely testifies again that you are simply an ignorant bigot who knows nothing about the Catholic Church. We Catholics have a term for your chief affliction: invincible ignorance. Until you let go of your bitter hate and your stunning ignorance, you will be far from Christ indeed.

paul zummo
Admin
Thursday, December 10, AD 2009 9:08pm

Wayne, it must be difficult to write posts by the faint light of a burning cross. I admire your talent in that regard.

Dale Price
Dale Price
Thursday, December 10, AD 2009 9:08pm

Waiter! I’d like to send my troll back. He’s not very good.

Chris Burgwald
Thursday, December 10, AD 2009 9:11pm

Aidan, thanks for your polite & kinds tone… it’s much appreciated. I’d like to try to respond to a couple of your questions and comments.

You asked about Mary’s assumption and about praying to her, and about finding both in Sacred Scripture. Most Catholic scholars today — including Pope Benedict — would say that while you cannot find every Catholic doctrine stated *explicitly* in Scripture, you can find all of them at least *implicitly*. Because Scripture is the Word of God, we will never completely exhaust our understanding of it and the way in which it all fits together… we’ve been spending 2000 years already mediating on the truths found therein, progressively growing in our understanding of the truths given definitely by Christ and His Apostles. That’s a general comment.

You asked about praying to Mary; it’s crucial to understand that the prayers which Catholics direct to Mary are of a completely different kind than those we direct to God… adoration and worship are due to God alone, not to any creature, and so in no way are prayers to Mary those of adoration or worship. Rather, they are prayers seeking her intercession, and as such they are completely biblical: St. Paul directs us to pray for one another and to ask for one another’s prayers, and that’s what we do with Mary: we are asking her to pray for us. Just as it is right and good that I ask for the prayers of other Christian with me here on earth, so too is it right and good for me to ask prayers of those who are already with Jesus in heaven… as Jesus Himself said, God is the God of the living, not of the dead: those who have died in Christ are truly alive in Him now.

Thoughts?

Chris Burgwald
Thursday, December 10, AD 2009 9:12pm

I second Dale’s last comment, btw.

wayne
wayne
Thursday, December 10, AD 2009 9:31pm

Only a person with their head in the sand can think Christ started the catholic church. But Christ did tell us how to spot phonies. He said..” by their fruits shall ye know them” What are the fruits of the catholic church? Pogroms agaisnt Jews, the inquisition, the crusades(most cruel and barbarous), homosexual pedophiles by the truckloads,lesbian nuns wholesale, selling get out of hell tickets(only an ignorant catholic would buy), an army of subversives(jesuits), coverups of crimes by priests. These are just some of the fruits of the wonderfull catholic church. My girlfriend was born catholic and went K thru 12 in catholic school. She says that if anyone says catholics dont worship Mary is a damnned LIAR. Her words exactly. She got out of that snakepit called the catholic church, by the way.

wayne
wayne
Thursday, December 10, AD 2009 9:35pm

Oh sorry, i forgot money laundering and drug running

Patrick
Patrick
Friday, December 11, AD 2009 10:53am

Aidan!
Thanks for the questions…quick answer…i hope this helps
Bodily Assumption of Mary: nowhere does it state it explicitly…however we can infer.
Elijah was assumed into heaven…why not the Mother of God?
Also, Rev 12 “A great sign was seen in the heavens, a Woman clothed with the sun and the moon under her feet”
Seems convincing to me. God bless bro!

Patrick
Patrick
Friday, December 11, AD 2009 10:55am

In addition: Mary was the only person whom an Angel praised during a visit. Usually, in the presence of an Angel, men fall to their knees in fright thinking the Angel is God. however, the Angel praised Mary!
How beautiful and true and fitting!

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