Jihad, U. S. Branch

Tuesday, September 2, AD 2014

Christopher Johnson, a non-Catholic who has taken up the cudgels so frequently for the Church that I have named him Defender of the Faith, suggests that if you are not nervous about Jihad, you probably should be:

You might want to look into the idea:

Columbus [Indiana] Police said they’ve never had anything like it – three churches vandalized in the same night.

Someone spray painted them on the outside. It’s the words used, though, that have some people asking if this was more than a prank.

“It was just one word. It said ‘Infidels!’” Father Doug Marcotte said of what was spray painted on Saint Bartholomew’s Catholic Church in Columbus overnight Saturday.

Parishioners saw that, along with the word “Qur’an 3:151″ on their way into mass Sunday morning.

“It’s certainly not a warm and fuzzy verse. It talks about the infidels, their refuge being the fire,” explained Father Marcotte.

Specifically, that passage of the Qur’an reads: “We will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve for what they have associated with Allah of which He had not sent down [any] authority. And their refuge will be the Fire, and wretched is the residence of the wrongdoers.”

Saint Bartholomew’s wasn’t the only Columbus church vandalized.

“It’s really bizarre and the fact that they hit two other Christian Churches. It’s not like we’re all in a line. So why did they pick the three of us?” asked Father Marcotte.

Outside East Columbus Christian Church and Lakeview Church of Christ, members there found the same kind of graffiti Sunday morning.

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48 Responses to Jihad, U. S. Branch

  • Good to see the response of the Islamic Society of Columbus. It wouldn’t shock me at all to learn that the perpetrators were not Muslim, but simply agitators looking to stir up controversy and trouble. And with no more care, than a delinquent pulling a fire alarm.

  • “but simply agitators looking to stir up controversy and trouble.”

    Yes, no doubt simply the fault of outside agitators rather than the adherents of a faith that view Christians and Jews as enemies and infidels.

  • – Or maybe it was a unruly group of cloistered nuns out of their cells for a bit of mischief.

    Wake up and smell the Koran.

    Please thank your President for the warm welcome of this ideology into a once God fearing Nation. Remember…”we are not a Christian Nation.”

  • I’m in Peoria, Il., and there’s a mosque only 3.5 miles from where I live. I didn’t even know it was there until an old friend of my family told me about it. Heck, they even had the street it’s on renamed Salaam Dr.! I wonder how soon will I see Quran verses sprayed on the walls of local churches?

  • “Our community condemns such actions and believes that Columbus is not a place for such a behavior.” Does that imply there is a place for such behavior? Mosul? Damascus? London? New York? St. Lawrence of Brindisi, pray for us.

  • “Specifically, that passage of the Qur’an reads: “We will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve for what they have associated with Allah of which He had not sent down [any] authority. And their refuge will be the Fire, and wretched is the residence of the wrongdoers.” “Qur’an 3:151″
    .
    Allah will not be pleased to be used by those inflicting their own will as the will of Allah. The passage applies directly and correctly to those individuals who use Allah as an excuse to do what they will outside the law. How do these people know what is in the heart and mind of any other person? Calling another person “infidel” means that one knows what is in the heart and mind of that person. This is only possible for God.

  • If your members of Catholic Daughters and Knights of Columbus aren’t packing heat in the parish’s parking lot during masses and have a phone to call 911 ready-to-hand…

  • I’ll be impressed when The Islamic Society of Columbus, Indiana pays to clean away the vandalism. Until then, meh.

  • Everyone is so amazed that I express skepticism that Muslims were behind this. Don et. al. did you read the article linked to in the column and in particular the words of Fr. Marcotte? Remember him? The one whose parish was defaced? He wasn’t quite as sure as all of you, or evidently “Defender of the Faith” Johnson. From Fr. Marcotte: “…is this someone that’s trying to incite people against Muslims? I mean I DON’T KNOW.” (emphasis mine). No he doesn’t. And until an arrest is made neither do you. Until then I’ll suspend my outrage. Like Fr. Marcotte.

  • Of course until the culprits are apprehended no one does know who they are. However, to immediately assume that muslims are not behind this and that instead mysterious outside agitators are, strikes me as ludicrous, no matter who makes that particular leap in illogic. If someone vandalizes a Church and cites the Koran, I will assume that muslims are behind it, unless other evidence arises to prove the contrary.

    Such vandalism of churches is an every day occurrence in lands where muslims are in a majority. It helps remind Christians luckless enough to live there of their dhimmi status. This is not unusual conduct at all for radical muslims to engage in.

  • It is certainly possible that this was a “false flag” sort of thing to raise resentment (not that much help is needed with co-religionists like ISIS around). But a reflexive “no true Muslim could this” approach isn’t all that plausible either.

  • I do agree with c matt that a reflexive “no true Muslim could do this” approach isn’t called for, but the whole point is that the police are investigating and the parish priest is withholding judgment. Would it kill us to do likewise until an arrest is made? And Don is certainly right about the plight of Christians in Muslim nations, but I want to be careful not to fit an incident in a mid-size Indiana city having what is likely a small Islamic population, into that horrific broader narrative without more facts. I have learned over the years not to react viscerally just because a story or column in the media suggests that I should. There will be a time and manner to deal with the perpetrators if and when they are caught. In the meantime justice demands that we not rush to judgment. I think our Faith demands no less of us.

  • Outside agitators like who? Reminds me of that term “plausible deniability”.. a kind of semantic and false game sometimes played.
    Yes the evidence is so far just circumstantial. Some are hesitant to call a spade a spade even when their common sense tells them the truth.
    That lofty position of non -judgment is not always good! Realize that even if and when arrests are made and people are officially accused, it will still be technically possible to be in willful denial about blaming jihadist muslims.

  • Who could our hypothetical agitator be? Got me. Do an internet search of “graffiti hoaxes” and see what you come up with. Maybe it’ll be one of them. Or better yet don’t bother. Wait until the crime is solved and then we won’t have to guess. Nor will we have to be in denial, willful or otherwise, about the identity of the perpetrator and what their likely motivation was.

  • I share your concern w/our inane immigration policy; however, the presence of a Muslim center is not so much an indictment of our suicidal immigration policy as it is an indictment of our prison policy. Consider that a large number of Muslims in this country are a product of prison conversions, and in fact these new members are often blessed w/the zeal of the new convert, so i i’m laying odds, that’s who i’m laying odds on.

  • Yes, it could certainly have been done by actual jihadist Muslims, but I wouldn’t be so quick to assume that ordinary non-Muslim troublemakers are “not literate enough” to quote the Quran. Copies of the Quran aren’t that hard to find. And if conversions to Islam among prison inmates are as common as indicated above, who’s to say that a friend or relative of an ex-con, who is still hanging around with unsavory companions, didn’t get the idea from reading said friend/relatives copy of the Quran?

    All I’m saying is that we can’t rule out any possibility, including the possibility that it was done simply by some jerk who wanted to see people freak out and NOT necessarily by a serious jihadist bent on warning the people of Indiana that it was time to convert or die.

  • Occam’s Razor doesn’t always arrive at the right answer Elaine, but it usually does. If some vandal cites the Koran I am going to assume he was a Muslim until evidence to the contrary is discovered. Prison conversions to Islam are rare, unless one is talking about the Nation of Islam which is to actual Islam as Roscicrucianism is to Catholicism.

  • We in the U.S. have had the airline jihad on 9/11/2001, the IED jihad at Times Square and the Boston Marathon, multiple examples of parking lot and college campus SUV jihad, the Washington DC Beltway sniper jihad, and many examples of stillborn jihad thanks to the FBI. There will be more. Does anyone really think that it matters if this graffiti was put there by some smart-aleck kids, or not?

  • What matters most?

    TomD points to recent incidents here in the land of the free. It’s a war that’s been waged on Christianity for centuries and it’s now in our backyard.

    Q: Do we become desensitized to any form of hatred toward Christianity?

    Q: Do we prepare by steadfast faith in the possibility of red martyrdom to come?

    Will the most popular newborn male name be Mohamed in these United States? If so, is it because it invokes a message of peace, or rather a message of world conquest and domination.

    Only time will tell.

  • While the certainty of facts and the identity of the culprits are being developed in this matter, Chris C’s mock-shock at the likelihood of a Catholic Church being vandalized by Muslim youth, esp. given the facts so far, is hard to sustain.

    For what it is worth, in Belgium (particularly around Genk and the urban areas of Brussels) where one of my daughters lives, it is so common for Muslim youth to spray paint the Catholic Churches with Quran citations and threats that most of the churches now have locked cyclone fences surrounding them during the week or after morning services (in particular you can see this at the main parish church in Genk). So many youth that are Muslims have been apprehended that to believe otherwise as to whom is behind the matter is a practiced blindness that must take a lot of energy to maintain.
    So now it has come to America—as has been promised by the imams. So now open your eyes.

  • Steve, do you think you know more about the situation than the folks in Columbus, Indiana? Fr. Marcotte of St. Bartholomew, and a minister at one of the other of the vandalized churches probably know their community, including their Islamic neighbors a lot better than you do. They are withholding judgment and giving their neighbors the benefit of the doubt. Why can’t you?
    http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/indiana-churches-hit-vandals-quoting-koran-article-1.1924890

  • chris c., haven’t you learned anything about Islam since 9/11/2001?

  • Stephen, I guess I have learned about as much as Fr. Marcotte. Enough to continue to act like a Christian, by the grace of God, “in season and out.” In this case it means withholding judgment and being careful not to condemn until all the facts are known. Perhaps you and others have been busy learning something else.

  • Mr Dalton, you don’t understand: it isnt sufficient for one to choose to be blind, but you too must share his blindness.

    “To believe otherwise as to whom is behind the matter is a practiced blindness that must take a lot of energy to maintain.
    As in Genk, as in Brussels, as in Paris, So now it has come to America—as has been promised by the imams. So now open your eyes.”

  • chris c.

    Cool heads in this case is good advice.

    Losing your head from the sword of a coward is a reality. No question about it. This early determination on the culprit (s) is speculative and if your false flag idea proves true then shame on me.

    Beheadings are evil. The emotions are running high. No excuse to rush though.

  • chris c., Christians are told to be as innocent as doves and as wise as serpents. Please stop dropping the wisdom part from your homiletics. Christians cannot, must not, turn a blind eye to the evils perpetrated for Islam, and so cannot turn a blind eye to the potential for Islamic violence in many Muslims who until now have never committed such acts. I refuse to prejudge any Muslim as a potential jihadist, but I refuse to prejudge a Muslim to not be a jihadist either. All the evidence in the world shows that there are many shades of gray in Islam.

  • Tom, as it pertains to this case, I’ll do my best to maintain the same level of Christ-informed wisdom as exhibited by Fr. Marcotte in his comments. No more and no less. My interest in this discussion is about the specific matter in Columbus Indiana. A broader discussion about Jihad or Islam is for another day as far as I am concerned. My comments relate to 3 churches in Columbus Indiana, and the distinct possibility, as noted by Fr. Marcotte and the pastor of another defaced church, that indeed this MAY not be as it appears. Or maybe it is. Who knows until an arrest is made. But it sounds as if you and a few others maybe the ones who are too innocent. Graffiti+Defaced Church+Koran verse = Jihad. Maybe. Maybe a “false flag” provocation. There have been enough hoaxes, some involving graffiti, some not; to make it wise to withhold judgment.

  • TomD, Gnostics have wisdom that you and I do not. Also, a lack of curiosity as to the fact that 3 Christian churches were vandalized but no mosques. However, Columbus, IN, unlike most rural Indiana towns, does have a putative mosque, the Islamic Society, right in downtown, at 23rd & Chestnut. Oh, by the way, it is about 8 blocks from St. Bartholomew’s Church (.6 mi). Oh, by the way the other two churches are about 5-8 min. short drive, all within about 3 mi. of the Islamic Society site. Just a coincidence.)
    .
    Oh, by the way,since I am familiar with this part of Indiana,it should be noted that there are no synagogues in Columbus, IN (nearest ones are in Bloomington and Indianapolis), so please note, that is why they werent nailed. In case you non-Gnostics were wondering.

  • chris c., jihad is the central tenant of Islam. All other requirements of Islam, including the Five Pillars, may be excused if excusing them brings victory in jihad. Fatwa after fatwa makes this clear, and any fatwa to the contrary can be viewed as an expression of shirk, which is the greatest sin a Muslim can make (and the reason so many are killed by their co-religious). The deck is simply stacked against decent Muslims who want to live their lives out in any other way. I have no problem seeing a Muslim teen spraying Quranic references on Christian churches in Indiana as fulfilling a minor and relatively harmless jihad. Who knows, he may go to college and make a fortune on Wall Street or do kidney transplants, and never do another act of jihad, but deep down he would know exactly why he did what he did.
    As to the local Indiana clergy, I just have to assume they are like nearly everyone else and prefer not to face unpleasant realities.

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  • How does anyone know that it was not done by non Muslim warmongers? Could this have been done by those who want war in the M. East but those who are not anything to do with ISLAM. Could this have been done by JEWS?
    I ask all Catholics to remember how our bible and our faith is viewed differently by others who call themselves Christians and how it can be twisted into something unpleasant by those with twisted minds and evil hearts.

  • “How does anyone know that it was not done by non Muslim warmongers?”

    Yes, I can see why you suspect others considering the pacifism rampant among followers of the prophet. Who could possibly think that the adherents of such a peace loving faith could possibly do this? (The obligatory blame the Joos portion of your comment was a nice touch.)

  • UR:

    My money is on teenaged mutant ninja sasquatches with nothing more productive in their minds.

  • Ursula, how many Jews are going around loping off heads, let alone spray painting Quran verses on churches? Until you or someone else can actually prove such alleged claims, sthu!

  • I have to laugh at Ursula R’s comment about the vandalism likely being done by “THE JOOS”, er, “JEWS, as she puts it”: I have a little familiarity with this part of Indiana and I believe she would be hard-pressed to find a resident Jewish person in much of the heartland here/there. But then again, to satisfy her, perhaps those devilishly clever children of Abraham are at it again, and maybe the Mossad has covered well their tracks— yet again.

  • Amazing that there always has to be someone who must blame the Jews, but the Muslims whose Koran commands them to lie to Jews and Christians, whose Koran tells them to subject Jews and Christians to dhimmitude, whose Koran tells them to slay Jews and Christians by the sword are blameless.
    .
    Yeah. Right.

  • STHU yourself you rude arrogant LP Stephen. Steve, you have to laugh, really intellectual comment or arrogant put down?
    If Jews hate Muslims, as they clearly do with great intensity, leading to loss of life and liberty and loss of land for the Muslims, then surely it would be a really hateful thing to dress up as a Muslim and do something nasty to others so that others hate them too? Now if I were a Muslim and I really hated Jews which really one could hardly wonder at, then it would make sense for me to dress up like one and paint stars with six points onto churches in order to make everyone else hate them too. If someone who had upset me had a big falling out with someone else, if I was evil, I would target that person in order to stitch up the person I was getting revenge on. If I was a black American and I wanted action taken against the Klu klux klan, I could put KKK graffitti everywhere to get them into trouble, If I put on a white gown with hood and I was seen but not caught, they would get into trouble. Evildoing is sneaky and is sneakily done, it is not straightforward and getting others into trouble is more evil than targeting them in an outright way.
    I heard about a Jewish person putting up swastikas near her student living quarters, she was caught on camera.
    Some verses of the Koran were put onto churches, this is more likely to have been done by those who hate Muslims than by Muslims themselves.
    Who is Elliott Shimon?

  • Now if I were a Muslim and I really hated Jews which really one could hardly wonder at, then it would make sense for me to dress up like one and paint stars with six points onto churches in order to make everyone else hate them too.
    Yep, hate of Jews is soooo understandable.

  • Goodbye Ursula. I have zero tolerance for anti-semites. You are banned from this blog.

  • A million surplus Mussies are willing to bear the yoke;
    And, a man is only a man, but a good Mussie is a joke.

    With apologies to Kipling.

  • Don, deleting UR’s posts would be like photoshopping the Quran quotes off of the church photo. Please leave the evidence for all to see.

  • Jesus was a Jew.
    .
    Er, I mean Jesus IS a Jew. After all, He rose from the dead and will never die again and His Mother is certainly Jewish and She is in Heaven with Him.

  • Re. TomD’s cogent comment on “shirk” —i.e.,”… shirk, which is the greatest sin a Muslim can make (and the reason so many are killed by their co-religious).” as a violation to true faith in the oneness of Islam—

    I didnt connect the Qu’ran/Islamic definition to the Merriam-Webster defined definition/origin of the word til reading his post., and our common usage (i.e., “to shirk one’s responsibilities..”)

    Merriam-Webster :
    “In Islam, idolatry and polytheism, both of which are regarded as heretical. The Qu’ran stresses that God does not share his powers with any partner (sharik) and warns that those who believe in idols will be harshly dealt with on the Day of Judgment.

    The concept of shirk has broadened considerably throughout the dogmatic development of Islam, and it has come to be used as the opposite of tawhid (the oneness of God). Different grades of shirk have been distinguished by Islamic law; they include the belief in superstition, belief in the power of created things (e.g., reverencing saints), and belief in those who profess to know the future—all of which pale beside polytheism in seriousness.”

  • Steve: “The concept of shirk has broadened considerably throughout the dogmatic development of Islam”. Exactly right.

    Shirk can now include anything that would constitute what we would term ecumenical outreach. A Muslim who in any way gives any small credence to any other faith can be accused of it. For example, Islam has a version of the Golden Rule, but it is carefully worded to apply only to Muslims. A Muslim who states that the Islamic Golden Rule applies to all of humanity is open to a charge of shirk – unless he proves to his inquisitors that he is engaged in deceit for the sake of jihad. If you are a decent fellow it’s just better to keep quiet and not run the risk.

  • “…all of which pale beside polytheism in seriousness”
    And let us not forget that in Islamic theology the Trinity is a form of polytheism.

  • By the way, TomD, “The concept of shirk has broadened considerably throughout the dogmatic development of Islam”—that is Merriam-Webster “speaking”—note it fast before they are forced to change it!

  • Steve, I think that sentence is already PC. The fact is it “broadened considerably” in the first years of Islam. The broadening was not a linear progression.

Can Catholics Abstain From ObamaCare

Thursday, March 25, AD 2010

I came across this American Thinker article on the exclusion of Amish and Muslims from ObamaCare:

The Senate health care bill just signed contains some exemptions to the “pay-or-play” mandate requiring purchase of Obamacare-approved health insurance or payment of a penalty fine. As Fox News has pointed out, for instance, the Amish are excused from the mandate:

So while most Americans would be required to sign up with insurance companies or government insurance plans, the church would serve as something of an informal insurance plan for the Amish.

Law experts say that kind of exemption withstands scrutiny.

“Here the statute is going to say that people who are conscientiously opposed to paying for health insurance don’t have to do it where the conscientious objection arises from religion,” said Mark Tushnet a Harvard law professor. “And that’s perfectly constitutional.”

Apparently, this exemption will apply similarly to believers in Islam, which considers health insurance – and, for that matter, any form of risk insurance – to be haraam (forbidden).

Steve Gilbert of Sweetness & Light calls our attention to the probability that Muslims will also be expempt. According to a March 23 publication on an authoritative Islamic Web site managed by Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid, various fatwas (religious decrees) absolutely forbid Muslim participation in any sort of health care or other risk insurance:

Health insurance is haraam like other types of commercial insurance, because it is based on ambiguity, gambling and riba (usury). This is what is stated in fatwas by the senior scholars.

In Fataawa al-Lajnah al-Daa’imah (15/277) there is a quotation of a statement of the Council of Senior Scholars concerning the prohibition on insurance and why it is haraam:

It says in Fataawa al-Lajnah al-Daa’imah (15/251):

Firstly: Commercial insurance of all types is haraam because it involves ambiguity, riba, uncertainty, gambling and consuming people’s wealth unlawfully, and other shar’i

Secondly: It is not permissible for the Muslim to get involved with insurance companies by working in administration or otherwise, because working in them comes under the heading of cooperating in sin and transgression, and Allaah forbids that as He says: “but do not help one another in sin and transgression. And fear Allaah. Verily, Allaah is Severe in punishment”

[al-Maa’idah 5:2]. End quote.

reservations.
And Allaah knows best.

So, it turns out that observant Muslims are not only strictly forbidden from buying any health insurance under the ObamaCare mandate, but may also not even work for any company that provides such insurance or any other form of commercial insurance.

(…)

Being an observant Catholic I don’t have to participate because it goes against my faith to kill unborn innocent children?

The 5th, 7th, and 10th Commandments and the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) forbids me from participating.

5th Commandment & CCC 2268-2269: You shall not kill. (ObamaCare kills unborn babies)[1]

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23 Responses to Can Catholics Abstain From ObamaCare

  • The bill requires that at least one plan on the exchange not cover abortion, so I don’t think this is an issue.

  • The Church also teaches about double effect and remote material cooperation with evil. I don’t know how many times I’ve been told to pay taxes for nukes because Jesus said, Give to Caesar what is Caesars. Perhaps there is some common ground in the making here! 🙂

  • I’m willing to allow an out on my tax filings for both nukes and ObamaCare.

    Is this possible in the U.S.?

  • Abstain from it Tito? I want to kill it!

  • I’m with Donald.

    Though being proactive and searching for many possible alternatives to further mitigate ObamaCare is what I’m after as well.

  • Does your insurance at work cover abortion or contraception? If so, should you opt out and pay for a private plan that excludes these?

  • JohnH,

    I plan to once I get a permanent full time job.

    Contract work at the moment.

  • Good on you, Tito.

  • I’d be a little leery of saying Muslims are forbidden to participate on the basis of Sheik Sumduud’s website, or even a fatwa. Fatwas are pretty easy to come by, actually, and have about as much force as the individual Muslim wants to accord it. To use a (very, very) rough analogy, they are like a trial court’s ruling, binding to varying extents on the parties involved, but lacking precedential force.

    More to the point, Muslims have worked out ways to get around prohibitions like this before (e.g., murabaha, which manages to do a fine job of mimicking interest via a client paying a financial institution an agreed upon marked-up price for a commodity).

  • Eliminating “nukes” in paying one’s taxes: would this include nuclear power plants? Labs which study detection of atomic weapons? etc etc

  • Catholics should get involved in a campaign to sign pro-lifers (and others) up with plans that don’t cover abortion. Hopefully, abortion coverage will die from lack of demand.

  • RR, that is really an excellent suggestion, and I can imagine it’s also one that would be quite easy for us to do as individuals, as well as collectively. Even for my moderately pro-choice friends (esp. the males), I think they would probably agree to purchase insurance that excludes abortion coverage.

    This seems worthy of really looking into and organizing as a pro-life goal.

  • “Catholics should get involved in a campaign to sign pro-lifers (and others) up with plans that don’t cover abortion. Hopefully, abortion coverage will die from lack of demand.”

    Considering the number of abortions we have in this country I think that hope is both futile and farfetched.

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  • The concern I have is that in order to get a general religious exemption from Obamacare for Catholics, wouldn’t we have to prove that abstaining from absolutely all participation in abortion, no matter how remote, was an integral and non-negotiable part of Church teaching, and that ALL Catholics were bound under pain of mortal sin or excommunication to abide by it (like the teaching against participating directly in abortion itself)?

    However, that is not true — remote material cooperation such as would occur in the case of paying taxes under Obamacare or participating in an insurance program that covered abortion is permitted for sufficient reasons, for example, if it would be extremely difficult or impossible to find another insurance plan. A Catholic CAN refuse to participate in such a plan on moral grounds, but he or she is not necessarily obligated to take such action.

    As for Muslims, I have heard that many Muslims do not believe in borrowing money and so they pay cash for everything, but how on earth do so many of them manage to run businesses (shops, etc.) without insurance? What happens if the shop burns down, or a pipe freezes, etc.? How do they legally drive cars if they can’t have car insurance? If Muslims really are forbidden to have insurance, it must be a teaching many Muslims either don’t know about or ignore, kind of like Catholic teaching against contraception.

  • Donald, I don’t think it’s futile or far-fetched to think plans that cover abortion can become unpopular, not just among pro-lifers but anyone who doesn’t think they need abortion coverage.

  • Ooops, my first sentence should have read “wouldn’t we have to prove that abstaining from all COOPERATION in abortion, no matter how remote…”

  • restrainedradical, don’t get me wrong. If people wish to persuade others not to get insurance that covers abortion, I am all for it. However, considering the sheer number of abortions, I don’t think this strategy will have much of an impact in reducing the total number of abortions. However, I would be delighted if I were proven to be in error.

  • So the Stupak Amendment wouldn’t have had much of an impact on the number of abortions? Maybe.

  • I don’t know how many abortions the Stupak amendment would have stopped. I know it would have stopped any of my tax money paying for abortions which is extremely important to me. Too bad Stupak folded like the weasel he apparently is.

  • Donald-
    I was really hoping the pro-life dems would actually come through.

    When I heard the news say they agreed to vote for it in exchange for Obama signing something that “clarified” federal funding of abortion… sounds like a setup for a bad, bad literal genie moment.

  • I have long had hopes for the pro-life Democrat movement Foxfier. More fool me. A handful of pro-life Dems stuck to their guns, but most proved that their pro-life stance was, at best, conditional to the needs of their party. These remarks are of course only aimed at pro-life Dem Congress Critters and not at rank and file pro-life Dems.

  • Are believers in Christian Science exempt?

Massacre at Fort Hood

Thursday, November 5, AD 2009

FortHood_SRPC_detail3x

13 have been killed and 38 wounded at the Fort Hood army post in Texas.  The alleged shooter, Major Nidal Malik Hasan, is dead, and two alleged suspects have been taken into custody.  This is a major story and details are sparse.  May the souls of the dead victims rest in peace.  More details as they become available.

Update 1: Dead gunman thought to have been a mental health professional,  a psychiatrist. I have heard on Fox that he was assigned in the past to Walter Reed.

Update 2: Gunman was thought to have been a drug and rehab specialist who obtained his license to practice psychiatry in 2005.  According to the Army Times he was promoted to Major on April 22, 2009.

Update 3: More details here about the gunman.

Update 4: Gunman worked at the Darnall Army Medical Center at Fort Hood.

Update 5: Gunman had received a poor performance evaluation at Walter Reed.  He was upset about a forthcoming deployment to Iraq.

Update 6: Colonel Terry Lee who had worked in the past with Hasan says that the gunman had made statements that Muslims should stand up and fight against the aggressor.  He is being interviewed on Fox.  The Colonel also said that Hasan thought that after Obama was elected the war in Iraq would come to a swift end and he became frustrated that this did not occur.

Update 7: The two suspects taken into custody have been released.  I am hearing that they may have been attempting to subdue the gunman and were taken in for questioning about the incident.  Good!  That makes it much more likely that this is the work of just one deranged individual rather than a conspiracy.

Update 8: Now the local Congressman in whose district Fort Hood is located is stating that he has heard that another suspect has been brought in for questioning.

Update 9: The gunman’s name according to some reports is Nidal Malik Hasan and not Malik Nadal Hasan as initially reported.

Update 10: Here is info on the gunman on the Virginia Board of Medicine Practitioner Information page.

Update 11: According to a cousin of the gunman interviewed on Fox, Hasan was born and reared in this country.  He has always been a Muslim and is not a recent convert as was initially reported.  He joined the military against the wishes of his parents.  He complained about harassment to relatives that he alleged that he received from fellow soldiers in the Army because of his pro-Muslim views.

Update 12: Lieutenant General Bob Cone, the commanding general in charge of Fort Hood, at a press conference announces that Nidal Malik Hasan was wounded and is in custody, and was not killed as was initially reported.  He is also stating that Hasan was the sole shooter, and that no one else appears to have been involved.  He says that the slain and wounded soldiers were in an enclosed area awaiting medical and dental treatment.  A female civilian police officer shot and wounded Hasan.  She was wounded by Hasan and is in stable condition.  (Soon to be celebrated by the nation as a heroine I think.)

Update 13:  NPR has this report:  

A source tells NPR’s Joseph Shapiro that Hasan was put on probation early in his postgraduate work at the Uniformed Service University of the Health Sciences in Bethesda, Md. He was disciplined for proselytizing about his Muslim faith with patients and colleagues, according to the source, who worked with him at the time.

Update 14:  Hasan is the son of Palestinian immigrants, both deceased. 

Update 15:  Reports that Hasan had come to the attention of federal law enforcement authorities six months ago because of internet postings advocating suicide bombings.  This seems to be the post in question:

“There was a grenade thrown amongs a group of American soldiers. One of the soldiers, feeling that it was to late for everyone to flee jumped on the grave with the intention of saving his comrades. Indeed he saved them. He inentionally took his life (suicide) for a noble cause i.e. saving the lives of his soldier. To say that this soldier committed suicide is inappropriate. Its more appropriate to say he is a brave hero that sacrificed his life for a more noble cause. Scholars have paralled this to suicide bombers whose intention, by sacrificing their lives, is to help save Muslims by killing enemy soldiers. If one suicide bomber can kill 100 enemy soldiers because they were caught off guard that would be considered a strategic victory. Their intention is not to die because of some despair. The same can be said for the Kamikazees in Japan. They died (via crashing their planes into ships) to kill the enemies for the homeland. You can call them crazy i you want but their act was not one of suicide that is despised by Islam. So the scholars main point is that “IT SEEMS AS THOUGH YOUR INTENTION IS THE MAIN ISSUE” and Allah (SWT) knows best.”

Take this report with a boulder of salt until it is better confirmed.  However, if the authorities did believe that Hasan was posting on internet sites advocating suicide bombings six months ago, why didn’t the Army take steps to keep him away from troops, especially troops heading for Iraq or Afghanistan?

Update 16:  The brave female police officer who took Hasan down is Police Sergeant Kimberly Munley.  She pumped four bullets into the gunman in spite of being shot by him. 

Update 17:  Hasan shouted Allahu Akbar ( God is Great) before beginning his rampage.

Update 18:  Information about some of the victims here.  May they now be enjoying the Beatific Vision.

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45 Responses to Massacre at Fort Hood

  • I am sure Major Hassan being a psychiatrist would have known how to scam the security clearance evaluation. There is no known cure for what the Robert and Hugh at Jihad Watch calls the Sudden Jihad Syndrome. It follows that the rational course is to keep Muslims out.

  • Jesus, have mercy on the Major, his accompliances, and his victims.

  • Naturally, America and Christianity will be blamed, rather than Islamic theology and history. Bottom line, all Muslims are either openly violent or quietly wating for a reason to kill. Get them all out of our country. There is no ‘moderate’ Islam. Get them out.

  • Our son is stationed at Ft. Hood. Thank God that he is okay.

  • I disagree Mr. Toler. There are good and bad men and women among Muslims as there are good and bad men and women among Catholics. This incident seems to involve only one individual and it is unjust to condemn all Muslims in this nation as a result of it.

  • I can only imagine your relief Karen. My brother was stationed at Fort Hood while he was in the Army and I would have been out of my mind with concern today if he was still there.

  • I agree there Don. To expel or ban people from this country purely on the basis of their religion or personal beliefs, and NOT on the basis of actual terrorist actions or affiliations, would set an enormously dangerous precedent.

    Next thing you know, liberal Democrats would decide that all pro-lifers or all Catholics should be expelled from the country on the grounds that they are all “openly violent or quietly waiting for a reason to kill” abortion providers!

    It seems to me that this kind of violence usually comes from nowhere and there is no foolproof or infallible way to prevent it. The “warning signs” are almost always visible only in hindsight. Perhaps this man was mentally ill?

    God bless and protect our brave men and women in uniform wherever they may be 🙂

  • HA!

    A WOMAN took down the Muslim gunman!

    That’ll certainly tick off Muslims the world over.

    Prayers on the way.

  • This is a tragic and unconcsionable occurance.
    My heart and prayers go out to those killed, those wounded and those whose lives will never be the same because of this senseless and traitorous attack.

    May God have mercy on the dead, and grant His grace to the others affected.
    And my prayers for the perpetrator’s change of heart.

  • Based only upon that excerpt, I would find it difficult for anyone to have anticipated something like this. As a psychiatrist, it could have been taken as simply his analysis as to how suicide bombers see themselves, and frankly, the analysis he expresses is probably quite accurate. It could be taken as support/encouragement of suicide bombings, but it could also be taken as someone trying to explain the mindset of the other side (like investigators trying to get “into the mind” of a perpetrator) and making a theological point.

    I wonder how many of our debates on various theological issues would sound to outsiders.

  • It’s amazing that President Obama is telling everyone “not to jump to conclusions”, yet he calls out the National Guard when George Tiller the Killer was shot inside his church.

    Typical.

    Seems like the “main”stream media is coalescing around the fact that he had mental disorders as to the cause of the shooting. Absolutely nothing to the plain fact that he carried Muslim sympathies and is a practicing Muslim.

    Now all we need to do is ignore all the jihadist postings that Nidal did on the extremist Muslim websites.

  • A slight disagreement with Elaine: no one has a right to come to this country. Nor, indeed, to go to any country in the world. Moreover, there is a recent history of immigration policy banning people on the basis of beliefs held–e.g., communist and fascist belief were (are?) grounds to deny entry into America.

    I am *not* saying we should deny Muslims entry because they are Muslims. Indeed, there are many forms of the religion which are admirable, and likewise their adherents.

    But we can certainly can–and should–deny entry for those Muslims who insist on forms of sharia which threaten the constitutional order. We did no less for would-be communist subversives.

  • Why the emphasis upon his being a Mohamedian when his main source of distress seems to be the fact that he was to be deployed to Afghanistan or the Middle East. Army suicides have increased dramatically as a result of the unending and unnecessary wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. This man in his attempt at suicide just happened to take others with him.

    Why did the Army keep and promote this man despite his instability and let him treat soldiers with mental disorders? As sick as it sounds this reminds me of Arlo Guthrie’s medical/psychological exam for the draft during the Viet Nam War as relayed in his classic “Alice’s Restaurant”:

    “They got a building down New York City, it’s called Whitehall Street, where you walk in, you get injected, inspected, detected, infected, neglected and selected. I went down to get my physical examination one day, and I walked in, I sat down, got good and drunk the night before, so I looked and felt my best when I went in that morning. `Cause I wanted to look like the all-American kid from New York City, man I wanted, I wanted to feel like the all-, I wanted to be the all American kid from New York,
    and I walked in, sat down, I was hung down, brung down, hung up, and all kinds o’ mean nasty ugly things. And I waked in and sat down and they gave me a piece of paper, said, ‘Kid, see the phsychiatrist, room 604.’

    And I went up there, I said, ‘Shrink, I want to kill. I mean, I wanna, I wanna kill. Kill. I wanna, I wanna see, I wanna see blood and gore and guts and veins in my teeth. Eat dead burnt bodies. I mean kill, Kill, KILL, KILL.’; And I started jumpin up and down yelling, ‘KILL, KILL,’; and he started jumpin up and down with me and we was both jumping up and down yelling, ‘KILL, KILL.’; And the sargent came over, pinned a medal on me, sent me down the hall, said, ‘You’re our boy.’”

  • Awakaman,

    I had to Google Arlo Guthrie.

    I wouldn’t take any “philosophical” rants from him seriously.

    I don’t know who he is, but if you would have sourced the Holy Bible, a prominent theologian, Vatican documents, etc, I would take your posting more seriously.

  • Arlo is a Republican now Awakaman. (Yeah, I know, I couldn’t believe it when I heard it either!)

    His religion was clearly this guy’s motivating factor in regard to his view of being deployed to the Middle East. We are at war, and he supports the other side due to his religion.

    In regard to the Army, the Army paid for his education and he signed up of his own free will. He could have attempted to resign his commission and pay back the cost of his education.

    Of course all this is beside the point. I suspect the true trigger was that Major Hasan is also Major Wackdoodle, and he wouldn’t be the first shrink who is crazier than any of his patients. I am sure his counsel will attempt to use the insanity defense in his case and the facts will determine if they succeed.

  • “This man in his attempt at suicide just happened to take others with him.” Huh? Sure, just a coincidence or something.

  • Breaking News at noon CST:

    8 shot, 2 dead (early reporting) at an office building in Orlando, FL.

    Shooter is Jason Rodriguez and is still at large.

    Reports are sketchy so the numbers of who is shot and dead could go up or down once the hysteria settles.

    No motive yet.

    Office building is still in the process of being shut down.

    Office building is off of I-4, that’s all I hear and know.

    My personal assessment it could be work related.

    http://www.mediabistro.com/tvnewser/generalities/mass_shooting_in_orlando_142465.asp

    Straight from Orlando Fire & Police Dept.’s: So far confirmed no deaths, 6 shot.

  • Mike,

    The mainstream media is already trying to spin this away from a “jihad” type of act.

  • I’m curious about the shooter’s reason for joining the Army in the first place. What were his motivations, and what did he hope to accomplish in the Army?

  • Nautica,

    Not sure.

    Getting a fine education in medicine may have played a role in it.

    If I were wiser in my younger years, I would have have joined the Officer Candidate Program or even as a recruit after high school to take advantage of free education and training.

  • Ah, yes, I forgot about that.

  • A person who jumps off a building to commit suicide and lands on passersby below, just happens to take them with him; a guy who commits suicide by driving into a wall and hits people behind it, just happens to take them with him.

    A guy who opens fire on others and dies when he gets taken down by someone else (never turning the gun on himself) – he is not committing suicide and just happening to take a few with him – he intends to murder.

  • Tito:

    I guess I’m just showing my age and you yours in that you don’t know who Arlo Guthrie is. He had a daddy who’s name was Woody (google him). Arlo was a headliner at Woodstock (the first one in ’69)abd had many great classics in the 60’s and 70’s including “City of New Orleans” and “Coming into Los Angeles”, but his most famous song was his 20 minute long humourous anti-war song “Alice’s Restaurant”.

    Don:

    1) So Arlo’s a Republican. . . like party labels mean a whole hell of a lot any more when the Republican party can encompass Anarcho-libertarians such as Ron Paul, quasi-Democrats such as Scozzafava, and Trotskyite neocons, such as Kristol and Podhoretz.

    2) Don, the NYT reports that the Major has been fighting deployment and trying to get out of his military committment for the past 2 years.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/06/us/06suspect.html?_r=1&hp
    Given the draconian military retention policies currently in effect do you seriously believe he would have any success – especially a doctor. When I was an Army JAG 20 years ago (at a time of relative peace) persons in the medical MOS’s had absolutely no chance of getting out short of fragging their commander. Today they have ablutely no chance no matter how psychologically sick they are.

    Fianlly, Tito, I see no one else on this thread citing the great philosophers, papal encylicals or biblical quotes. All I see are people venting their anger and fear regarding Mohammedan boogie men. Let’s kill them all and let God sort them out and let’s hand Lord Bush Obama all of our liberties and freedoms to fight the terrorist who hate us due to our freedom I guess I’m held to a higher standard.

    I think Mr. Guthrie’s view of the military in relationship to mental instability is similar to that presented by Joseph Heller in Catch 22- the mentally unstable who unbothered by or attracted to the horror and destruction of war are allowed to serve in the military undisturbed and these want to avoid them can not get out of the military because their aversion to such horror and destruction show them to be sane. I think that this view of the destructive nature of a warrior’s life to one’s soul is much more in alignment with Catholic teachings then alot of other pro-war on “terror” rants that I read on this blog and others.

  • “I had to Google Arlo Guthrie.”
    Tito, Tito…you’re making me feel like a fossil.
    Interesting to hear Arlo’s come around though. I wonder when that liberal got mugged?

    I live in a military town, and I’m pretty sure this behavior isn’t typical of your average Muslim soldier. FWIW I’m also dubious of the allegations going around that religious harassment caused him to snap.

  • The mainstream media is going to stick to that angle to make “islamophobia” the real issue and not the deaths.

  • “All I see are people venting their anger and fear regarding Mohammedan boogie men. Let’s kill them all and let God sort them out and let’s hand Lord Bush Obama all of our liberties and freedoms to fight the terrorist who hate us due to our freedom.”

    No one here said like this, but hey–strawmen are fine fencing partners. In addition to being a hellish thing to say, a “kill ’em” mindset is as mindless as the “Islam has nothing to do with terrorism” mantra that gets trotted out whenever a self-identified Muslim commits an act like this.

    I’m sure there’s someplace in between the reflexive knee-jerking that might shed light. How about you?

  • “All I see are people venting their anger and fear regarding Mohammedan boogie men.”

    Was this murderer such a boogie man?

    How about those who were responsible for 9/11?

    The only “boogie men” I see here are those miraculously manifested by the ‘PC’ types who would dare manufacture such a bleached fiction that there is no such Mohammedan.

  • “Mike,

    The mainstream media is already trying to spin this away from a “jihad” type of act.”

    Of course, Tito, very predictable; but in all fairness it could be true. I’m a moderate. I say, it is even sillier to rule out jihad as it is to assume it. One thing for sure though — the idea that this was just a garden variety suicide that just happened to take a whole bunch of others with him is nuts. That *might* explain crashing an airplane or even a car, but shooting people? Give me a break, awakaman.

  • “Given the draconian military retention policies currently in effect do you seriously believe he would have any success – especially a doctor.”

    Yeah, I do and doctors getting out of the obligation is not that unusual:

    http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/brooklyn/2009/06/27/2009-06-27_fed_court_upholds_discharge_for_peacelovin_army_doctor.html

    If Doctor Fruitcake had sought my services, here is how I would have handled his case:

    1. He becomes a born again conscientious objector. He applies for the status and we have him give interviews telling how the wars in the Middle East and what returning troops have told him has caused him to say No to war.

    2. I have his relatives and friends besiege his CongressCritter.

    3. I go through his record with a fine toothcomb and find examples of how he has been treated unfairly by the Army. I am a proud Army veteran and trust me, as I think all Army vets could attest, the Green Machine treats everyone unfairly at one time or another.

    4. I have him live out his Islamic faith, talking about Mohammed while he is with patients and at medical meetings.

    5. I take out my violin and play up to the press the prejudice angle. According to Colonel Terry Lee Dr. Fruitcake was called harsh names by his fellow officers when he expressed his beliefs and the press would eat up the meme of neanderthal Army officers oppressing this poor peaceful Muslim psychiatrist.

    6. I give hints to the Army that Dr. Fruitcake is under a lot of stress and who knows what might happen unless we can get him out of the Army.

    7. I enlist the usual list of Useful Idiots of peace groups, radical groups, church groups, etc., to rally to the cause of this Doctor who has seen the light and who will not fight in Pharoah’s Army any longer.

    By the time I was done I think I could have gotten Doctor Fruitcake a good conduct discharge and maybe even forgiveness of his debt. As they say, this isn’t rocket science and I think any competent litigator could do the same.

    Of course Dr. Fruitcase wasn’t interested in getting out of the Army. In his twisted mind he was interested in screaming Allahu Abkar and murdering men and women who wore the same uniform he disgraced.

  • “5. I take out my violin and play up to the press the prejudice angle.”

    Wouldn’t it be far more effective to just have a string quartet nearby playing Barber’s Requiem?

  • “We certainly can–and should–deny entry for those Muslims who insist on forms of sharia which threaten the constitutional order. We did no less for would-be communist subversives.”

    I have no problem with that. In a case like that, you’re talking about someone who demonstrates unwillingness to accept our system of law, or is affilated with a group whose professed aims are subversive or illegal. That’s not the same as assuming that all Muslims by definition are potential terrorists.

  • “By the time I was done I think I could have gotten Doctor Fruitcake a good conduct discharge and maybe even forgiveness of his debt. As they say, this isn’t rocket science and I think any competent litigator could do the same.”

    Maybe he should have tried dressing as a woman… oh wait, that didn’t even work for Corporal Klinger back in the (fictional) Korean War and it would probably be even less likely to work today.

  • I had to google “Corporal Klinger”…

    …just kidding.

  • Section eights, mentally unfit, were much harder to come by Elaine back in the days when Uncle Sam needed every male who could pull a trigger and before society became consistantly stuck on stupid.

  • You make me feel very old sometimes Tito!

  • Maybe its just because he’s not married yet 🙂

  • Don:

    I knew Army doctors who tried every trick in the book to get out of their committment including being 150lbs over weight standards and being totally incabable of meeting any of the PT standards. The Army just got them special order uniforms.

    The fact that this Army “psychiatrist” was acting like a fruitcake for the past year and this did not lead anyone in the Army to seek his discharge should tell you something.

    Why can’t you and other folks just accept the simple fact that these silly neverending wars are having a disasterous effect upon US soldiers and their mental well being – no matter what their religion.

  • Well awakaman I cited you an actual recent case showing you how it was done by a doctor who became a CO when his precious skin was going to be shipped off to Iraq. There are a lot of ways for people to get around living up to the oaths they swore when they voluntarily joined the military.

    No one sought his discharge from the Army because Dr Fruitcake never sought it. Of course the Army should have had him under constant surveillance after his internet postings surfaced six months ago. I am sure that the inevitable investigation will reveal that the usual culprit, bureaucratic inertia, led to no action being taken.

    The wars we are fighting in the Middle East are neither silly nor never-ending, but necessary and winnable as Iraq demonstrates. Your attempt to make an anti-war argument out of the murderous rampage of Dr. Fruitcake is mistaken. His motivation was Islamic fervor as his cry before the slaughter commenced indicates, and probably paranoia which of course a paranoid psychiatrist would be unable to self-diagnose.

  • Don:

    1) Sorry I am not swayed by the anecdotal evidence you provided of one single doctor who it appeared had been fighting before army boards and in the federal courts for CO status for EIGHT (8) years before he received it. Rather, the military’s severe “stop-loss” policy is still in effect and will only be phased out gradually during the next 2 years.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/19/washington/19gates.html
    How, much do want to bet that 2 years from now there will be even more soldiers being held against their wishes under this program?

    2) Reports state that he did take actions to obtain a discharge and to prevent his deployment to Iraq or Afghanistan. Perhaps he did not take the well reasoned path you suggested Don but we are talking about a man going down the path of madness.

    3) Don, the fact is that suicides among military personnel and veterans are at alarming levels, yet the Department of Defense does more to hide these facts than it does to deal with them.

    http://www.citizensforethics.org/node/31885

    Here we have a person who’s job it was to make our troops feel good about invading other people’s countries and killing strangers, and we’re surprised that he was capable of such an act.

    When my wife’s nephew was on his first tour in Afghanistan, he was the machine gunner on back of a Hum-v. The first couple of days they had him shoot every dog they saw so he would become numb to killing. No matter how noble the cause the chief purpose of our military is to train killers. . . and then we are surprised when they kill.

    4) Yes, Don, “silly and unending”. This case just goes further to show how our interventionist foreign policy is creating anti-Americanism both at home and abroad. Little third world stone-age warrior Afghanistan has been the death knell of many empires. . . my guess it will be where one more dies during that empire’s quest to prop up a corrupt government that allows big US oil to run an oil pipe line accross that nation.

    I also note that the big news in the paper and on the radio this morning was that the Major once said he was “a moslem first and an American second.” Horror of horrors.

  • Actually awakman evidence is also surfacing that Hasan attempted to contact al-Qaeda and the FBI knew about this prior to the shootings.

    http://hotair.com/archives/2009/11/09/abc-fbi-knew-hasan-tried-to-contact-al-qaeda/

    This is shaping up into a major story about whether this massacre was an act of Jihad, and, more importantly, why the Feds didn’t act against the fellow prior to him going Jihadal at Fort Hood. There is more here now I think than just a simple nut case and I will be posting more about it tomorrow.

  • Clearly a case of shell-shock by proxy.

    Unitarians do the same thing.

    Big Oil.

    The Crusades.

    Nothing to see here–move along.

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  • Awakaman:

    If the war in Afghanistan is “silly,” I would like to know what your policy response would be to an act of state-supported terrorism such as 9/11? Should we have had the FBI politely knock on the door of every hut in Helmand, serving search warrants to the suspected criminals?

  • J. Christian:

    We bombed the Taliban leadership and permitted opposing warlords to overthrow them. But. . . no. . . we have to go in and impose a modern western democratic state so everyone can have their Coke, Pepsi, Playboy Magazines and so their women can wear mini-skirts, vote and get abortions.

    Well now all we have done is increase the number of Taliban followers and turn previously friendly warlords against us. Our support of the Russian oppostion during the wonderful reign of Ronald the Great lead to the rise of the Taliban and our continued interference in this area of the world will only lead to their greater growth and prestige in the area.

  • we have to go in and impose a modern western democratic state so everyone can have their Coke, Pepsi, Playboy Magazines and so their women can wear mini-skirts, vote and get abortions.

    Oh, sure. That’s why Afghanistan’s shiny new constitution–with our full throated approval–enshrines Sharia as the supreme law of the land. Under Article 3 of that document, “No law shall be contrary to the beliefs and practices of Islam.”

    Which was why Abdul Rahman was in real danger of execution for apostasy from Islam, editors have been given hard labor for publishing articles criticizing stoning, translators of the Koran have been imprisoned for blasphemy, Shiite Afghan men can starve their wives if they don’t put out, and married women can’t attend school for fear of polluting unmarried girls with their sexuality.

    http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/HC25Df02.html

    http://www.rsf.org/Editor-Ali-Mohaqiq-Nasab-gets-two.html

    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,394522,00.html

    http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/08/17/afghan-husbands-win-right-to-starve-wives/

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/nov/29/afghanistan.theeditorpressreview

    Yeah, that’s democracy whiskey sexy in action, all right.

    Look, the idea of trying to impose Western style democracy was stillborn from the start.

    But let’s not entertain any delusional fantasies that that’s what we’ve tried to do in Afghanistan. Because it’s not. In fact, it’s just the opposite–we’ve given the country over to a reduced-calorie version of the Taliban.