5 Responses to Visionaries of Medjugorje May Appear Before The Vatican

  • I didn’t realize that the ‘seers’ (using ‘ ‘ since there has been no formal Church recognition, not to imply judgment) had thusfar refused to reveal the secrets to their bishop. That’s very very serious.

  • Why surprised? Haven’t you heard of the Third Secret of Fatima? Lucia did not reveal it until 2000 even though her Bishop requested it in 1943.

    Do you really imagine that your Bishop can command anything he wants of you? By the way, I understand that YOUR Bishop has requested everyone in his diocese to tithe …

  • I’ll go out on a leg for the first “Surprised”, he/she may be alluding to the fact of the grave disobedience the local Franciscans and seers have shown their local ordinary.

  • The third secret was given to proper authorities well before the year 2000.

  • If I remember correctly, Sister Lucia wrote down the “third secret” in 1943 at the request of her bishop and entrusted it to him with instructions that it not be made PUBLIC until 1960 or after her death, whichever occurred first. (Whether the timetable for releasing the secret came from Our Lady, or was just Sister Lucia’s personal preference, is not clear.) So she didn’t refuse to reveal it to her bishop — just the opposite, she made sure he was the first to know about it.

Its Official, CDF to Investigate Medjugorje

Friday, March 5, AD 2010

Pope Benedict has appointed Cardinal Ruini to head a commission of inquiry under the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith to investigate the alleged apparitions in Medjugorje.

This has been a long time coming and should be comprehensive and decisive.

It has been said that the late Pope John Paul II wanted to believe in the Marian apparitions while Pope Benedict has withheld judgment with reservation. We know Pope Benedict has visited Medjugorje incognito in the past.

Medjugorje has been controversial from the very beginning and it will be interesting to see what the CDF has to say.

_._

Thank you Rome Reports for the video.

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69 Responses to Its Official, CDF to Investigate Medjugorje

  • I predict a Medj-revolt and schism in the near future…

  • Henry,

    From what I understand, Medjugorje has had a long history of disobedience to the local ordinary. Sadly one of my favorite orders, the Franciscans, have been in constant tension with the diocese since the area was no longer a missionary territory centuries before.

    I hope it doesn’t come to schism, assuming that if the CDF declares the apparitions as non-supernatural.

  • Yes, of course I pray it doesn’t go to schism either. But since I don’t believe Medjugorje, and believe earlier work against it is sufficient, I don’t think we will see anything new beyond further explanation for why it is false. And as you said, disobedience is big here — evidence of the bad fruit, and what will lead to further disobedience. Sadly.

    And I agree with another thing you said — Franciscans are a favorite of mine.

  • earlier work against it is sufficient

    The seers themselves, in the earliest days of the alleged Marian apparitions, have been their own worse enemy.

  • Official? This ‘news’ is just a rehash of the story that has been circulating for months. Yes, there is a commission already underway, but not to decide on the validity of the apparitions, only to rubber-stamp International shrine status for Medjugorje later this year. So don’t be fooled into thinking the Holy See is ready to decide one way or another on the claimed apparitions. It’s immediate focus is to protect and ring-fence the tree that is producing good fruit. Rome is in no hurry to reject or accept the claims of apparitions.

  • Pilgrim,

    There has been speculation but nothing official until now.

    Besides, how can the CDF rubber-stamp something that hasn’t had an official inquiry until now?

    God can make a straight line out of a crooked line.

    IMHO, in the beginning Medjugorje has had too many inconsistencies regarding the seers.

    It’ll be interesting to see what comes of this inquiry.

  • CDF is looking into it because of theological questions — what do you think the CDF does, Pilgrim? Others would deal with shrine status — but as Tito said, it can only get such a status if their is affirmation of the vision. There is not.

  • Tito

    To me, it is not just the inconsistency, but the spirit of rebellion which is telling. As St John of the Cross points out — if someone is unwilling to be silent and go through a proper investigation, you can dismiss it.

  • Henry,

    I agree.

    I’ve read some of Saint Theresa of Avila and have been meaning to get to Saint John of the Cross. Is there a book that you could recommend that is “easy” to read.

    I struggle to get through some of Saint Theresa’s writing, so I’m weary of reading something too heavy on theology while missing out on the mysticism of Saint John of the Cross.

    As far as obedience, I struggle with that and can understand when an individual struggles with that as well, but when it’s more than one individual I am of mind that something is being hidden that one doesn’t want to get out.

  • Tito,

    I recommend getting his collected writings. Start maybe with his letters in the back (where he discusses direction and spiritual discernment), then start with his Sayings of Light and Love.

    As for books on him — I think a good one is actually one which will surprise people: Christianity Looks East: Comparing The Spiritualities Of John Of The Cross And Buddhaghosa. Even though it is inter-religious in scope, I thought it did a good job giving a summary of the thought of St John of the Cross (and using it to contrast with a Buddhist thinker).

    A more difficult work is St Edith Stein’s Science of the Cross.

    Nonetheless, I think just reading from St John of the Cross directly is the best.

  • Henry said: “Others would deal with shrine status”

    Like who?

    Henry said: “ — but as Tito said, it can only get such a status if their is affirmation of the vision.”

    Not true. There are two issues here: Shrine status and the validity of the apparitions. Shrine status is not dependent on claims of apparitions. Check Canon Law. This commission will reach a conclusion on shrine status.

    Shrine status will not be an endorsement for the claims of apparitions.

  • “Shrine status is not dependent on claims of apparitions. Check Canon Law. ”

    That may be true, at least on paper, but can anyone name a single instance in which shrine status was granted to the site of an unapproved or disapproved apparition?

    I cannot for one minute imagine that shrine status would ever be granted to a site like Necedah, Bayside, Cold Spring, etc. even if it were legally possible to do so. The possibility that Medjugorje might be fraudulent — not simply “not proven supernatural” — seems to me to be strong enough to not take any chances when it comes to shrine status.

  • Elaine, it is not a case of taking chances but a matter of recognising and protecting the tree that produces fruit. That is why the Holy See is giving consideration to shrine status.

    In 2006 Rome commissioned the Bosnia Herzegovina bishops’ conference to give study and consideration to shrine status for Medjugorje. After two years it returned the commission back to the Holy See unable to come to any decision.

    So now Rome itself is undertaking the study and has had representatives in Medjugorje during the past year making reports on this matter.

    This commission will decide on shrine status appertaining to Medjugorje.

  • “It is not a case of taking chances but a matter of recognizing and protecting the tree that produces fruit.”

    Well, even unapproved apparitions have produced “good” fruit in the form of conversions, confessions, vocations, etc. God can bring good out of any situation. However, that doesn’t change the final status of the apparition or revelation.

    My original question remains: has there ever actually been an instance in which shrine status was granted to the site of an apparition that was NOT approved or found to be worthy of belief? I know it is legally possible, but what I want to know is whether it has actually happened.

    I believe there have been apparitions or other phenomena of uncertain authenticity (e.g. weeping or bleeding statues) at sites that were ALREADY shrines at the time the event occurred. But I have never heard of an instance in which shrine status was granted after the fact to a doubtful or inconclusive apparition site. If I’m wrong feel free to correct me.

  • Elaine, the Yugoslavia bishops’ conference stated in 1993:

    “We bishops, after a three-year-long commission study accept Medjugorje as a holy place, as a shrine. This means that we have nothing against it if someone venerates the Mother of God in a manner also in agreement with the teaching and belief of the Church…”

    This is shrine status at national level.

    However, with the breakup of Yugoslavia and its bishops’ conference there is a legitimate question as to the status of Medjugorje as a shrine. This is why in 2006 the Holy See commissioned the Bosnia Herzegovina bishops’ conference to give study and consider shrine status for Medjugorje at national level.

    The B&H bc failed to produce an outcome and handed back the commission to Rome. Now we have a new commission in Rome which will give consideration instead and this will be at International level. Had the B&H bc given or rejected shrine status then Rome would not be now giving consideration.

  • pilgrim,

    That is a blatant lie.

    They never stated in print or verbally anything such.

    There was “speculation”, but nothing else.

    Immediately thereafter the new bishop of the area covering Medjugorje declared them not supernatural.

  • Hi folks,

    I have been on the critical side, against authenticity of the phenomena of Medjugorje, but must point out that Rome Reports is an independent news source, that gets it’s news like the rest of us. The original source of the information is “Panorama”.

    Hence, Rome Reports is reporting what is in Italian media.

    It will be official when the Holy See, the BiH Bishop’s Conference, or Diocese of Mostar makes a formal announcement.

    Bishop Peric called to Rome
    On that note, you may be interested to learn that Croatian press is reporting that Bishop Peric has been called to Rome.

    Read more in my updated post on this issue.

    Ongoing Medjugorje commission discussion; Bishop Peric called to Rome

  • I should add, that Catholic Answers Live is going to be discussing Medjugorje on March 24th.

    See the calendar here (you’ll be able to listen to archived video for March 24, 2010 once it has aired).

    Here is a list of radio stations carrying it and you can listen live online.

  • Diane,

    Thanks for the information! 🙂

  • Tito said: “That is a blatant lie. They never stated in print or verbally anything such.”

    The declaration was made by Cardinal Franjo Kuharic and was published in Glas Koncila on August 15, 1993, the Catholic newspaper of Archdiocese of Zagreb.

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  • Pilgrim certainly cannot provide us a document or a letter with protocol number establishing Medjugorje as a shrine, and certainly cannot tell us the date on which the “shrine” was dedicated, and by whom.

  • Tominellay… Can you provide letters with protocol numbers for the shrines of Lourdes, Fatima and Knock?

  • Perhaps, if I looked, which I won’t. Those places aren’t part of this discussion.
    You claim Medjugorje was proclaimed a shrine by the Yugoslav Bishops’ Conference, quoting Cdl. Kuharic in 1993, Glas Koncila. By 1993, that bishops’ conference was out of business. Kuharic of Croatia cannot create a shrine in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

  • Tominellay… the last bishops’ conference of Yugoslavia was held in 1993, the same year the declaration was made. The bishops’ conference of Bosnia & Herzegovinia was not established until 1995, two years after Cardinal Kuharic made his statement

  • Pilgrim,

    You have failed to provide any evidence of what you claim.

    I went to the pro-Medjugorje websites and they site exactly the opposite. It is mere speculation.

    Stop with your misleading information.

  • Tito, relax… wait and see.

  • Pilgrim,

    You claimed there is a statement and now you don’t.

    The smoke of Satan in all its decrepitude.

  • Slovenia and Croatia seceded from Yugoslavia in 1991, and Bosnia-Herzegovina seceded from Yugoslavia in 1992.

  • Tominellay… The Croatia bishops’ conference was formed in 1993 and the Bosnia & Herzegovina bishops’ conference was formed in 1995. Annexing as a nation is not the same as annexing as a bishops’ conference.

    Speaking about annexing, you may be interested in the following item which has surfaced this week in light of the Mostar bishop’s visit to Rome on Sunday.

    Reported by Croatia media sources is the news that the Vatican has already arrived at a solution that recognises the importance of Medjugorje to the Church and that the tree bearing good fruit in abundance is to be protected.

    Currently the bishop of the Mostar-Duvno diocese is in Rome and on the table for discussion is the annexing of his diocese which will see the parish of Medjugorje come under a new bishop. Apparently a decision was reached some time ago and an announcement is expected before the 30th anniversary of the apparitions on June 25.

    Next step shrine status?

  • Pilgrim,

    Again, no links no evidence.

  • Tito… be patient. If there is an “official” announcement before June 25, you will not have to wait too long, just a couple of months.

  • Pilgrim,

    You make many claims yet fail to provide evidence for it. You make bold statements yet fail to provide references or links. You know lying is a sin.

  • Pilgrim,

    You provide this quote:

    Reported by Croatia media sources is the news that the Vatican has already arrived at a solution that recognises the importance of Medjugorje to the Church and that the tree bearing good fruit in abundance is to be protected.

    Where is the link or the reference to a newspaper?

    You are lying through your teeth again.

  • Tito… Two accusations of lying and one of misleading… Perhaps it’s time you read the blog comments policy.

  • Pilgrim,

    I’m stating facts.

  • I beg to differ, Tito. You are not stating facts when you accuse me of lying through my teeth. Please read the comment policy on this blog and adhere to it.

  • Tito… I sincerely hope you give time to reading this. Thank you.

    We would like American Catholic be a place where Catholics from various perspectives (and anyone of good will) may constructively discuss the issues that unite and divide us. The subjects we cover produce strong feelings, and we want to make sure all disagreement is handled charitably. Please always assume the good intentions of the other person, especially when you disagree, and avoid personal attacks. All ISPs are recorded and disruptive commentators will be regretfully blocked.

    Comment Code of Conduct

    I will express myself with civility, courtesy, and respect for everyone, especially toward those with whom I disagree—even if I feel disrespected by them. (Romans 12:17-21)

    I will express my disagreements with others’ ideas without insulting, mocking, or slandering them personally. (Matthew 5:22)

    I will not exaggerate others’ beliefs nor make unfounded prejudicial assumptions based on labels, categories, or stereotypes. I will always extend the benefit of the doubt. (Ephesians 4:29)

  • Pilgrim,

    You are making wild claims that bishops have proclaimed Medjugorje a “shrine”, yet you fail to provide any reference or link.

    This is getting silly with your obstinate behavior.

  • Tito… The reference I made was to Cardinal Kuharic and I did provide a source for his quote.

  • Cardinal Kuharic seems to have recognized immediately his poor choice in the word “shrine”, for he adds, “That means we have nothing against it if…”

    Mr. Gallagher/bluecross/pilgrim, your kind of storytelling works on the Medjugorje fan web sites you frequent, but people who aren’t already “hooked” look more critically at evidence.

  • Tominellay, taking six words out of context from the statement and attempting to imply a different meaning is not, in my opinion, critically looking at evidence, as you put it; Here is the full paragraph:

    We bishops, after a three-year-long commission study accept Medjugorje as a holy place, as a shrine. This means that we have nothing against it if someone venerates the Mother of God in a manner also in agreement with the teaching and belief of the Church.”

    And the statement made by the cardinal is supported and expressed in this Canon 1234 §1:

    At shrines the means of salvation are to be supplied more abundantly to the faithful by the diligent proclamation of the word of God, the suitable promotion of liturgical life especially through the celebration of the Eucharist and of penance, and the cultivation of approved forms of popular piety.”

    Tominellay, as to your reference to storytelling please allow me to draw your attention also to this blog’s Code of Conduct, especially the paragraph that says: I will express my disagreements with others’ ideas without insulting, mocking, or slandering them personally. (Matthew 5:22)

    I accept and respect your choice to hold a different view on Medjugorje to myself, but I don’t have to accept the personal remarks. Hope you can understand and accept my objection with charity.

  • Pilgrim,

    I have not found any statement thereof.

    What I have found are on pro-Medjugorje websites paraphrasing what you are “claiming” as speculation and not fact.

  • Tito said: “I have not found any statement thereof.”

    What statement are you referring to, Tito? Is it the statement made by Cardinal Kuharic? If so, then I have already given the original source for this – Glas Koncila in Zagreb,

  • Pilgrim,

    I have not found any such statement online.

    Anywhere. Not on Google search nor Bing search.

    Therefore you made it up.

  • Tito… in an earlier post you say you had found references. Now you say you haven’t.

    Yet you state that the references you had found are paraphrasing. How can you say this when you say you have not found “any such statement”?

    Or… to say that the statements are paraphrased when you have found nothing to compare them with to illustrate that the statements are paraphrased?

    I have given you the statement and the source. Try making contact with Glas Koncila, the Catholic newspaper.

    Try and accept also that the internet is not the sole source for reference and that just because you can’t find what you are looking for doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist.

    And slow down on the false accusations. I did not “make it up” as you state.

    Finally, allow me to remind you once again about this blog’s code of conduct for posters, especially this point: “I will always extend the benefit of the doubt.”

  • Pilgrim,

    Reread what I said and come back to me.

  • Tito said, “Reread what I said and come back to me.”

    ???

  • Pilgrim,

    The conversation ends here.

    You are no longer allowed to post anything else unless it is supported by evidence.

    You have made this thread a mockery of this website.

  • Everyone,

    This thread is not closed.

    Only the conversation between Pilgrim and I.

  • Tito… does that mean I can converse with others?

  • Pilgrim,

    Yes, absolutely.

    I also want to that you are right about civility. I will treat you with Christian brotherly love the next time we engage in debate.

  • I think all the statements we quote should be taken in context, which is why I have pointed out that Cardinal Kuharic qualifies his use of the word “shrine”.
    The original Glas Koncila article, which I have seen, but which I can no longer locate, is only a sentence or two longer than the direct quotation. We aren’t informed what question was asked, or what other questions were asked; it is not stated that these were prepared remarks, or part of an announcement. If this were a prepared statement, there would likely be no qualifier. If the statement was an off-the-cuff answer to a question in an impromptu interview, it would seem not to be a statement on behalf of a conference of bishops. So, then, what is the context of this quote?

    Consider the phrase “after a three-year-long commission study”. When was that? I suspect he meant the 1987-1990 commission that resulted in the Zadar Declaration. That declaration did NOT include the word “shrine”. It follows, then, that Kuharic would correct himself for using the word “shrine” in this 1993 comment. If there was another commission between 1990 and 1993 that determined Medjugorje was a shrine, that fact has been completely secret. No, I think it’s reasonable to presume Kuharic meant the 1987-1990 commission, and there is no evidence that a national shrine was created or dedicated.

    It is also true that NO ONE ELSE has claimed that the Zadar Declaration gave Medjugorje the status of a shrine, and no one besides Kuharic in this statement of 1993 has made reference to Medjugorje being made a shrine or a national shrine as a result of the 1987-2000 commission (or any succeeding commission) study.
    Cardinal Kuharic simply misspoke, and corrected himself with the qualifying phrase “This means that we have nothing against it if…”

    There are the 1996 letters from the CDF’s Bertone to Bishops Taverdet and Aubry that concern the status of Medjugorje, with no mention of any “shrine” or “national shrine” status.

    There is a communique from Vatican spokesman Navarro-Valls from the same year, that concerns Medjugorje, with no mention of its status as a shrine.

    I think that Cardinal Kuharic erred in his choice of words that day in 1993.

    Here are some inconsistencies in pilgrim’s comments on this thread:

    a. (Mar 05 at 4:44) that there is a commission underway…only to rubber-stamp International shrine status for Medjugorje later this year. If this is an opinion, present it as opinion; if it’s a fact, substantiate.

    b. (Mar 06 at 3:55) that Rome commissioned the B-H bishops’ conference to give study and consideration to shrine status for Medjugorje. If this opinion or fact? And if Kuharic already had made M a shrine, what is there to consider?

    c.1. (Mar 06 at 5:53) that Cardinal Kuharic’s answer to a reporter’s question as quoted in Glas Koncila was in fact an act of a episcopal conference conferring “national shrine” status on Medjugorje. (No one else thinks so.) c.2. that the breakup of Yugoslavia now makes this “shrine’s” status questionable. So, Medjugorje is or is not a shrine? Opinion or verifiable fact?

    d. (Mar 09 at 12:39) “Reported by Croatian mediaources…” No link, no named source, no deal. If it’s not verifiable, it’s just a story.

  • Thank you, Tito. I appreciate your understanding.

  • Tominellay… The headline to this thread reads: “It’s official. CDF to investigate Medjugorje”

    Now we both know that no “official” announcement has been made, yet when comments are made on this story, no-one except myself has stated that this story is not an official announcement.

    But when I present an announcement re shrine status, I am accused of telling lies and stories and not having any evidence to support my posts.

    Perhaps you may wish to consider why you apply a different standard of criticism to my posts and not the original post to this thread?

    With regard to the claim of the original post, I could ask the same question you put to me, or perhaps you could ask it yourself: “If it’s a fact substantiate it.” Of course, you can’t do this until the Holy See actually does “officially” make an announcement.

    When you can do this, then perhaps I shall give consideration to your request to provide what you call “verifiable fact”.

  • pilgrim said: “…no-one except myself has stated that this story is not an official announcement.”

    I should have added… “with the exception of Diane.” Apologies for the oversight.

  • …correcting my comment above at Mar 11, 2:35 –

    par. 3: “1987-2000” s/b “1987-1990”
    paragraph 4: the year of Bertone-to-Taverdet letter was 1996; Bertone-to-Aubry letter was 1998

  • I just noticed that “pilgrim” made the same announcement in Feb. 2009. “Pilgrim said…

    Word is that it won’t be too long before Medjugorje is given International Shrine status by the Holy See.
    1:48 PM, February 27, 2009” !!!

  • The sad thing is that there are many people like Pilgrim who believe all of this. There needs to be some more pastoral outreach on the nature of apparitions, to help people realize their limitations and why we should not put our trust in those which have not been approved. Moreover, pastoral work needs to be done to help remind people the authority of the bishop over their diocese, especially in matters like apparitions.

  • Dear Henry, let me assure you that there is no sadness in my heart because of my belief in the so-called Medjugorje phenomenon – only joy. And you cannot deny me this because it is my own experience and not yours.

    For sure, you are entitled to your opinion and belief, but your sadness on my behalf is misplaced. You have no need to be sad because of my renewed faith. Why even the angels in heaven rejoice because of my ‘conversion’. Returning to God is not a sad thing but a reason to celebrate and praise God.

    As for ‘limitations’, who of us can determine the mystery of the God’s mercy?

  • In the last line of my previous post I should have written:

    “As for ‘limitations’, who of us can determine the mystery of the Father’s mercy?”

    My sorrow is for the sibling of the prodigal son who begrudged the mercy and generosity shown by his Father to his ‘lost’ brother – as witnessed in today’s Sunday gospel reading. But I can certainly relate to the youngest brother’s joy and cause for the Father to celebrate.

  • Pilgrim

    That you misrepresent the situation with the apparition itself indicates quite a bit of the spiritual rot within this apparition. That you are unable to tell the truth about it, and promote it far beyond what is allowed shows the rot of prelest. Get thee to a priest.

  • As I said, Henry, you are entitled to view and opinion, but it still doesn’t take away my joy and faith, renewed through the Medjugorje phenomenon and the grace I received there to change my life.

    In the words of Peter and James, I will continue to speak of all that I have seen and heard, despite any opposition to my witness. And as Paul said in today’s second reading: “We are all called to be ambassadors for Christ.”

    Not sure what you mean when you write, “Get thee to a priest”, or by your charge of “misrepresenting the situation with the apparition itself”.

  • Thank you Henry, I saw these news stories earlier today.

  • Well, it is just something we both agree on, so I thought it important to share in the solidarity we can have here!

Medjugorje, Exploring the Origins

Tuesday, October 6, AD 2009

The alleged Marian apparitions at Medjugorje have had a sordid history.  Much of it to some extent successfully Tomislav Vlasix Marian Hoax Medjugorjeglossed over or reinterpreted by the Franciscans that run the parish at Medjugorje.  A document was put out by Bishop Ratko Peric, the ordinary of the Diocese of Mostar-Duvno that encompasses Medjugorje, which was translated by Richard Chonak of the Catholic Light blog, that put to record of what actually occurred in Medjugorje and how the alleged apparitions were fabricated and manipulated by dissident priests such as Tomislav Vlasic and Slavko Barbaric.

I want to briefly summarize some highlights from this translated document first, which then be followed by the translated document in full.

Highlights:

1. Tomislav Vlasic, in collusion with his superior, undermined the authority of the bishop by relocating himself to Medjugorje without asking permission.  They waited an entire year to do so.

2. Tomislav Vlasic and Slavko Barbaric, the spiritual directors of the alleged seers, did not allow the seers to report any alleged messages from the Madonna without coming to them first so they can have their stories straight.

3. A grave theological error that the alleged apparition stated that all people in Heaven have their souls and their bodies with them.  I guess Tomislav Vlasic never studied the Nicene Creed.

4. Tomislav Vlasic claimed to have visited the Pope (John Paul II) when he never did.

5. The Madonna wanted Slavko Barbaric to replace Tomislav Vlasic as the spiritual director so he could document the entire episode of the visions.  Slavko Barbaric passed away in AD 2000, and the alleged apparitions continue to this day… without Slavko Barbaric.  Another “vision” that never came true.

There are many more, but I just highlighted the big ones that I thought were prescient.  The following is the completed translation of Bishop Ratko Peric’s documentation of the many errors of the apparitions in Medjugorje:

Vlasic’s involvement in the “Medjugorje phenomenon”

Just as last year, when the Holy See sanctioned the Rev. Vlasic with interdict, warning him of more severe penalties if he would not obey, once again numerous comments have appeared in the mass media to proclaim the non-connection between the “Medjugorje phenomenon” and the “Vlasic case”. If in both the letter and in reference to the two more serious penalties there is an explicit reminder of the “Medjugorje phenomenon”,[1] in which Tomislav Vlasic in involved, why is there never any connection between the one and the other? We would like to recall just that undeniable connection, from the beginning.

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23 Responses to Medjugorje, Exploring the Origins

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  • Tito,

    I’m very much a critic of Medjugorje, for many reasons. I find it to be one great deception. Strange enough, when I discuss it with many people, I end up being treated as if I blasphemed God for questioning an apparition and blacklisted.

    That, I think, says something about the demonic attack going on here. If it were legitimate, as St John of the Cross points out, the questions would be welcomed.

  • Henry,

    I agree about the demonic attack.

    I’ve been on the fence ever since I learned about Medjugorje. I even bought by Wayne Weible.

    Unfortunately, I was just returning and learning my faith, but one thing from the book constantly gnawed at me at it was the seers disobeying Mary.

    In the book Mary asked a couple of the seers to enter religious life. Both of them declined and I believe one of them got married.

    That is what got me to think more about these apparitions.

    Many people search for signs for guidance from God. And here are two seers that have communication with Mary herself and they refuse to listen to her direction.

    Which brought me to today. I don’t believe they are true. Unless of course the Vatican says they are worthy of belief, but I doubt that it will occur.

  • In the early 80s a lot of my Catholic charismatic friends believed Medjugorje was genuine and I agreed with them initially, but what eventually turned me off was the way the “messages” kept going on and on, ad nauseam, and on command in front of audiences at conferences, etc. Today I am about 99 percent convinced they are NOT genuine.

    Most genuine apparitions like Lourdes and Fatima last only for a limited time, just long enough for Mary to get out whatever message she has. If Mary is indeed without sin, and possessed of perfect humility, it stands to reason that she would know when to stop talking 🙂

    Some seers may have further apparitions or revelations (like Sister Lucia of Fatima) but when they do, they usually do not publicize them immediately or use them to attract attention, and they certainly don’t make a living off of them.

  • I really think there is too much “apparition hunting” by people “looking for a sign” and it really indicates the spirituality of our age (a weakened spirituality). I do believe there are some real solid encounters between Mary and the Saints with others (Zeitun is, imo, the most recent, authentic, public apparition), most of the time it is for a private grace and is not meant to be shared like this. Those who have it tend to be humble about it, shy about talking about it, even embarrassed about it — they don’t want to think of themselves as special and to be treated as such.

    Pride and prelest are indications of demons and liars.

  • I agree.

    There is so much more than searching for apparitions when you have the Eucharist available to anyone at each and every parish.

    Zeitoun is one of those sites that I find very interesting as well. To see how Muslims and Christians both flocked to this site was incredible to read! Even President Nassar was there and he believed!

  • I think it was Thomas Dubay who said something to the effect that people will spend thousands of dollars to go on pilgrimages, but won’t cross the street to give a casserole to an ailing or grieving neighbor.

  • If Mary is really what the Catholic Church believes her to be, and she genuinely wished to communicate with all of the world’s people, then she would do so in a clear and unequivocal way. i.e. via an image which could be seen and heard (and recorded) by everybody!

    Were that to happen, very few people would doubt the Catholic interpretation of the Christian Faith; and indeed very few people would fail to be converted…

    Instead we are asked to accept that for mysterious reasons beyond our understanding, Mary prefers to reveal herself in private and we then have to take it on some third party’s word that what she is alleged to have said is true.

    The inconsistencies and controversy noted above doesn’t surprise me in the slightest. Medjugorje is almost certainly a hoax inflicted upon gullible Catholics.

    For reference, I have been to Medjugorje and even met one of the so called “Visionaries”. I was and remain, extremely unimpressed, but note that the local economy of Medjugorje is utterly dependent on tourism and so will do everything in its power to keep this travesty alive.

  • “If Mary is really what the Catholic Church believes her to be, and she genuinely wished to communicate with all of the world’s people, then she would do so in a clear and unequivocal way. i.e. via an image which could be seen and heard (and recorded) by everybody!”

    I think Medjugorje is hooey, but this argument is nonsence. Jesus was born in a backwater province of the Roman Empire. He died on a cross at thirty-three. His disciples were a very small group lacking any influence in Judaea, not to mention the world at large. Who could possibly have guessed that the movement he started would eventually encompass the globe with almost a third of humanity? God has His own purposes and His own methods.

  • I think it spread because a Roman emperor called Constantine attributed a military victory at Battle of Milvian Bridge in 312 to the influence of a Christian God. Had this not happed, maybe Christianity would have remained “a very small group lacking any influence in Judaea, not to mention the world at large”.

  • Your knowledge of history is very faulty. By the time of the battle of the Milvian Bridge Christianity had spread throughout the Roman Empire and far beyond it. It had spread in the Roman Empire in spite of three centuries of fierce persecution.

  • Yes, there were pockets of Christians who sadly were persecuted before then, however it was under Constantine that Christianity rose to be the dominant religion of the Roman Empire and hence leveraged its influence on the world at large.

    (One reason why those Christians were so easily persecuted was that numerically, they were a minority group.)

    Without Constantine’s influence, Christianity almost certainly wouldn’t have had the impact (for better or worse) on the modern world that it subsequently did.

  • Untrue. Diocletian unleashed the last great persecution of the Christians not because there were mere pockets of Christianity, but because Christians were everywhere, even at his court and among his advisors. Constantine did not embrace a religion that was small, but a religion that was large and growing. In short, he backed the horse that was already winning the race. Gallerius, Emperor of the Eastern Roman empire, and who had instigated Diocletian to begin the great persecution, paid a left-handed tribute to the strength of Christianity in his edict of toleration which he issued on his death bed in 311 AD:

    "Among other arrangements which we are
    always accustomed to make for the prosperity and
    welfare of the republic, we had desired formerly to
    bring all things into harmony with the ancient laws
    and public order of the Romans, and to provide that
    even the Christians who had left the religion of their
    fathers should come back to reason ; since, indeed,
    the Christians themselves, for some reason, had
    followed such a caprice and had fallen into such a
    folly that they would not obey the institutes of
    antiquity, which perchance their own ancestors had
    first established; but at their own will and pleasure,
    they would thus make laws unto themselves which
    they should observe and would collect various
    peoples in diverse places in congregations. Finally
    when our law had been promulgated to the effect that
    they should conform to the institutes of antiquity,
    many were subdued by the fear of danger, many even
    suffered death. And yet since most of them
    persevered in their determination, and we saw that
    they neither paid the reverence and awe due to the
    gods nor worshipped the God of the Christians, in
    view of our most mild clemency and the constant
    habit by which we are accustomed to grant
    indulgence to all, we thought that we ought to grant
    our most prompt indulgence also to these, so that
    they may again be Christians and may hold their
    conventicles, provided they do nothing contrary to
    good order. But we shall tell the magistrates in
    another letter what they ought to do.
    Wherefore, for this our indulgence, they ought to
    pray to their God for our safety, for that of the
    republic, and for their own, that the republic may
    continue uninjured on every side, and that they may
    be able to live securely in their homes.
    This edict is published at Nicomedia on the
    day before the Kalends of May, in our eighth
    consulship and the second of Maximinus."

    Galerius recognized that the might of the Empire was helpless against the faith of the Christians.

  • Christianity was still just one cult amongst several that permeated the latter day Roman Empire, including Mithraism (derived from Zoroastrism) and Dionysusim which was allied to past Greek and Roman gods.

    The reason Christianity was not totally suppressed by the Romans lay more in the general decline and relative weakness of their Empire rather than anything else.

    It remains extremely unlikely that without Constantine’s conversion, Christianity would have made anything like the impact on world history that it did.

  • Once again untrue. The pagan religions were dying while Christianity grew from strength to strength. The attempt by Julian the Apostate in the 360s to revive the pagan cults demonstrated how futile that was. As for the Empire being weak, the Empire was at its height during the first two centuries of Christianity. Christianity endured and grew whether the Empire was strong or weak and whether they were bittlerly persecuted or grudgingly tolerated.

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  • I have visited Medjugorje two times in my life. Both were blessed occurances in my life. I feel with faith anything is possble. Medjugorje was a miracle in my life and I will cherish the rest of my life. Possibly the naysayers are the work of satin.

  • Cathy,

    If you were blessed in Medjugorje, you wouldn’t be damning the naysayers.

  • Tito

    It’s the work of cotton.

  • I personaly have resieved many wounderfull graces as a direct result of our ladys apparitions and the whole wounderfull medjugorje experience, our lady has helped me forward in my faith and her messages have given me a greater understanding of Gods endless love for each one of us his children, our lady of medjugorge messages have allways been messages of, allways putting our full trust in God to never lose hope, to regularely pray and fast, we are reminded to say the rosary, and encouraged to live our faith every moment of our life. All these are weapons to defeat saton, and certainly do not promote him, our lady is titled, Queen of peace, and from the beginning of the apparitions in 1981, our lady stressed the need for peace, our lady also stated the impending dangers in that country and the need to continuously pray for lasting peace foretelling of the conflict that sadly, took place in that country. our lady of medjugorje is continually leading us her children to her son, our lord and savior Jesus Christ, regularely reminding us of Jesus in the blessed sacrament of the euchorist, stating if it is a choise for any of us her children between events to do with our lady and receiving Jesus christ her son in the euchorist in holy mass, we are to allways put Jesus first, our lady also stated when pilgrims commented to the visionarys how priverlaged they were to recieve these graces,our lady of medjugorje said through the visionarys that our lady is allways closest to every soul who received her son our lord and savior Jesus christ in the euchorist, more closer than any visionary could experience, in an apparition, because the sacred heart of Jesus and the immaculate heart of mary are perfectly united in there love for each other. I could say so much about all the wounderfull experiences that one experiences there,the constant feeling of peace and holyness from the moment one arrives there,wounderfull,powerfull benedictions, experiences, of a supernatural nature involving the sun,such as seeing the host clearly in the centre of the sun without hurting the eyes, the word peace in there own language that appeared within the clouds over St James church for all to see in the early days of the apperitions. In my honest oppinion i firmy believe the real danger is not weather or not our lady of medjugorje is truly appearing in medjugorje which i truly believe she is but that so many souls who clearly have never been there are crediting the devil with abbilitys that only God has,supernatural graces involving the sun ,similar to Fatima, only God is omnipotent and omnicient.The devil can only do what God permits him to do . These apperitions have been taking place for 29 years this month the longest period in history,as far as i know, and there is no sign as yet of there compleation,what with all the wounderfull conversions that have taken place during that time,peoples lives have been changed for the better I will end know just by saying. I am a dedicated catholic, i have given you all my testimony just as it is, i have absolutely no reason to lie or exagerate, i believe i am a perfectly rational human being,my experiences were not hallusinations vivid dreams or anything else other than what i have said they were, of corse everybody has equal right to believe or disbelieve in these said apperitions,and i sincerely promise i will fully abide by whatever desition the vatican may make. All i ask to those who dont believe the apperitions of our lady of medjugorje are true,please as a brother in faith i ask you dont attack and condemn, clearly judjment has not been made and therefore if they were declared true,as i sincerely believe they will be,those who attacked would have been declaring evil,what is holy, a sin against the holy spirit,it is better to hold your thoughts…YOURS IN CHRIST…FRED.

  • 22 of us went to medjugorje in may 2010 – we all saw the sun spin – 2 rosaries turned gold color – 4 people had healings – nothing new . the sun spins virtually every day in M( signs,wonders, and response- albert hebert). millions of rosaries turn gold in M( visions of the children- janice connell- national best seller). also staues issue human tears & blood. also the incorruptible bodies of saints GET REAL GOD IS FACT! and also dont forget fatima – this event by itself prooves GOD IS FACT. science and common sense cannot explain these events the evidence is simply overwhelming. HELLO!

  • The sun is constantly and minutely monitored by numerous astronomical observatories and yet not a single one picks anything unusual! WHAT UTTER NONSENSE THIS TALK OF SPINNING SUNS IS!
    As for the supposed healings, take away the psychological hysteria surrounding Medjugorje and the spontaneous remissions which would have happened anyway and you are left with nothing.
    If the bible is an accurate account of Jesus’ ministry on earth, then His miracles were beyond doubt and clearly evident to everybody. This is NOT the same at all.

  • Tito, right again! As you said to Cathy, if she had truly been blessed, she would not be damning those who question it. Anyone who does that is not reacting in a Christian way of love. And by the way all you folks, there is nothing wrong in shining a stringent light on Medjugorye. If it is truly of God, it will hold up. If it does not, it will fold. After all, as St. Paul warned us, the devil can appear as an angel of light, and St. John warns us not to believe every spirit, but to discern. A loving, charming, happy emotional experience at Medjugorye is nice–but you can have that on your honeymoon. It is certainly not the standard you must hold Marian apparitions to! First you have to ask yourself: is what the apparition saying in line with the faith of the Church? Are the seers in obedience to the Church? Why have two of the priests of Medjugorye been defrocked? Mary asked two of the seers to enter the convent and the priesthood–neither one did! Why are they making money by giving tours and running bed and breakfast places? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Faith in God is not primarily an emotional thing–it is an action of the will. And you judge an apparition by what it says about God, and whether it is in agreement with Church doctrine. And you know what? As the late great Malachi Martin wrote, turning rosaries a gold color is just a party trick of the devil. As for all those people who have had good experiences at Medjugorye, God can write straight with crooked lines. I imagine there is nothing that offends Him like the devil counterfeiting an apparition of His Mother. I’m sure that anyone who sincerely loves Mary and honors her receives a special protection from Christ for their sincerity. In the meantime, read up on all the lies that have been told, and the disobedience of the seers themselves. It is chilling.
    And never forget: you don’t have to go to Medjugorye to have an experience with Jesus and Mary. You can do it anywhere–they’re everywhere! God Bless! Helen

Res et Explicatio for AD 8-24-2009

Monday, August 24, AD 2009

Salvete AC readers!

Buckle Up! Because here are today’s Top Picks in Catholicism:

1. The Reform of the Reform project continues as the Congregation for Divine Worship recommended the following:

  • Voted almost unanimously in favor of a greater sacrality of the [Latin] rite.
  • The recovery of the sense of Eucharistic worship.
  • The recovery of the Latin language in the celebration.
  • The remaking of the introductory parts of the Missal in order to put a stop to abuses, wild experimentation’s, and inappropriate creativity.

In addition they declared the reaffirmation of receiving Holy Communion on the tongue.

Pope Benedict XVI continues in correcting the abuses and misinterpretations of Vatican II with these rectifications and tweaks.

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5 Responses to Res et Explicatio for AD 8-24-2009

  • Quote: “According to an interview featuring E. Michael Jones, who knew several prelates close to Medjugorje explained the contrasts on how both popes approached the issue. It seems that JP2 wanted to believe in the Marian apparitions but was hesitant due to the evidence to the contrary while Papa Bene isn’t hesitating to begin to make a ruling against the validity of these questionable apparitions.”

    Unfortunately, Mr. Jones takes wide liberty in making statements that cannot be supported. The entire piece written by Jones is a sham and an embarrassment to him and others who promote his books and articles. Jones lacks any direct quotes and is thus left to fabricate the truth based on his skewed view of Medjugorje. Cardinal Ratzinger was involved from the beginning in removing judgement of Medjguorje from the local Bishop to the Yugoslavia Conference of Bishops and more recently to the Vatican. A more full rebuttal to Jones can be found here:
    http://catholic-ecclesia-dei.blogspot.com/

  • Timothy,

    We all struggle do discern God’s will, for some it’s easier than others.

    But when the Virgin Mary tells her Medjugorje seers to join the priesthood and convent and you refuse, that is enough for me to believe that the Marian apparitions are a sham and nothing more than the devil playing these poor kids (no adults) for all their worth.

  • Please Taco; there’s more than just that which would lead one to doubt the sham that is Medjugorje.

    Our Lady of Fatima it certainly is not.

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Res et Explicatio for A.D. 7-30-2009

Thursday, July 30, AD 2009

Salvete AC readers!

Buckle Up! Because here are today’s Top Picks in the Catholic world:

1. Newspapers outlets and news agencies are reporting that Pope Benedict XVI has signed off on the laicization of Father Tomislav Vlasic.  Tomislav Vlasic is one of the leading priests alleging that apparitions of the Blessed Virgin Mary have been appearing continuously to six Croat seers since June 24, 1981 in the Bosnian town of Medjugorje.  These apparitions are continuing to this day and has been visited by an estimated 30 million pilgrims.  An estimated 40,000 messages have been conveyed to the seers by the Blessed Virgin Mary.

Officially the Vatican has not decided on the matter of these alleged apparitions of the Blessed Virgin Mary.  The Vatican has recently taken over the case of reviewing these allegations from the local Bosnian diocese.

There are skeptics and proponents debating the facts and implications of the latest scandal over Medjugorjie.  But what is clear is that Medjugorgie has lost more of its tarnish these last few years.

I won’t argue with the genuine conversions and sincerity of many believers that have occurred at Medjugorie.  Though I have a couple doubts concerning these apparitions which I will write to in a separate posting for a later date.

2. Quote of the Day:

“We do know that at the end of time, when the great conflict between the forces of good and evil takes place, Satan will appear without the Cross, as the Great Philanthropist and Social Reformer to become the final temptation of mankind.”

Archbishop Fulton Sheen (Life of Christ, p. 10)

Kind of sucks the wind out of your sails doesn’t it if you believe in the redistribution of wealth and all.

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12 Responses to Res et Explicatio for A.D. 7-30-2009

  • “I already love this man!”

    Oh great, Tito Taco has gone all bender on us; what’s next? Same-sex marriage?

  • e.,

    That’s Double-T to you.

  • Sorry, mate; I go for Double D’s! *wink*

  • My “Too Much Information” meter just exploded…

  • I’ve long believed the sheer duration of the Medjugorje apparitions was reason enough to suspect something fishy. Most genuine/approved Marian apparitions happen only once, or a few times, and span a few months at most, like Lourdes and Fatima. Genuine seers may have apparitions occasionally over the course of their lives (like Fatima seer Sister Lucy did) but not “on command” or on a regular basis, and if they do, they don’t publicize them. I could never believe the Virgin Mary was THAT much of a chatterbox that she would talk to these kids (who, of course, aren’t kids anymore) every single day for (as of now) more than 28 years.

    I know lots of people argue that Medjugorje produced all kinds of “good fruit” in the form of conversions, healings, etc.; but the same argument can be made about a lot of other non-approved apparitions, and about organizations such as the Legionaires of Christ and Regnum Christi which are now proven to have been founded on fraud. The “good fruits” are, perhaps, just God bringing good out of a bad situation.

    However, why does article linked above mention Ivan Dragevic’s marriage to a “former beauty queen” — not that there’s anything wrong with that, eh guys?

  • Elaine,

    Good point on that marriage.

    Yeah, nothing is wrong with that, but in a future posting I will touch on this, but briefly say it here.

    The Blessed Virgin Mary asked him to enter the priesthood and he decided not to.

    How many of us struggle for direction from God and here is Ivan telling the Holy Mother “no”.

    That was the back breaker for me.

  • “The Blessed Virgin Mary asked him to enter the priesthood and he decided not to… here is Ivan telling the Holy Mother ‘no’.”

    Ah, but what if the Holy Mother didn’t really speak to him in the first place? Church authorities have ruled more than once that there is no evidence to prove that she did.

    Of course that makes Ivan’s situation even worse, because it means either 1) that he has been duped or deceived into thinking the apparitions are genuine when they are not, or 2) he knows the apparitions are fake and willingly participated in fraud by pretending they were.

  • The Vatican approved apparitions the children didn’t even hesitate to join the convents. Yet Ivan, and a couple others, chose to live a more materialistic lifestyle.

    That is what disturbs me.

    They have broken many of the guidelines that are normally followed to be approved.

    Hence my skepticism on the matter.

  • I see what you mean, in that genuine visionaries normally don’t try to make a living off their visions or messages, and often hesitate to tell anyone about them at first, because they can’t believe Jesus or Mary would choose to speak directly to someone as unworthy as them.

    Although there were no such people as “jet setters” in Bernadette’s time or in the era of the Fatima visions, I can’t picture any of them becoming jet setters and running all over the world, speaking to conferences and giving interviews and such. However, while the majority of genuine visionaries do enter religious life, is it really a “rule” that they HAVE to or else the vision wasn’t genuine?

  • Elaine,

    It’s not a rule, but it certainly lends credibility.

    If Ivan chose to live simply then it would certainly have not put any doubts in my mind, but since he lives like a rock star, it begs the question.

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