Cardinal O’Connor, Paul Castellano, Cardinal Dolan and Mario Cuomo

Sunday, January 4, AD 2015

 

Back in December of 1985 Cardinal John O’Connor forbade a Catholic funeral mass for Mafia kingpin Paul Castellano:

Finn said a public Mass was banned because of the ”notoriety” of Castellano’s background.

The decision was made to avoid giving the appearance of church approval of the crime syndicate, Finn said.

Castellano, 70, had been the chief of the Gambino crime family, which is based in New York, for the last nine years, according to the FBI and the New York City police.

Without public announcement, Castellano’s body was transported from the Cusimano & Russo Funeral Home in the Gravesend section of Brooklyn at 9 a.m. Thursday and, police officials said, was buried at the nonsectarian Moravian Cemetery in Staten Island. A priest was present at the cemetery, Finn said.

O’Connor permitted Castellano’s family and other mourners to hold a private memorial Mass, without the body present, Finn said.

Castellano lived in a mansion known as the White House in the Todt Hill section of Staten Island. He was a parishioner of St. Ann’s Roman Catholic Church on Staten Island.

The decision to inter Castellano in a nondenominational cemetery was made by the family and was not the result of the cardinal’s prohibition, Finn said. The question of whether a person receives church funeral rites is a ”judgment call” based on the principles of church law, according to Rev. Richard P. McBrien, professor of theology at the University of Notre Dame.

Go here to read the rest.  Mario Cuomo’s funeral mass is set for Tuesday:

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38 Responses to Cardinal O’Connor, Paul Castellano, Cardinal Dolan and Mario Cuomo

  • Ever since the decree Ad Evitenda Scandala, promulgated at the Council of Constance by Martin V in 1418, it has been the practice to refuse Christian burial (except in the case of suicides) only when “some sentence or censure shall have been published or made known by the judge in special and express form, against some certain, specified person, college, university, church, community, or place.”
    There is something odd, surely, in refusing Christian burial to those who have lived and died in the peace of the Church, except on evidence that only emerged after their death.

  • “There is something odd, surely, in refusing Christian burial to those who have lived and died in the peace of the Church, except on evidence that only emerged after their death.”

    Which of course is not the case in regard to either Castellano or Cuomo.

  • “Which of course is not the case in regard to either Castellano or Cuomo.”

    Naturally, those who die under “some sentence or censure” promulgated against them have always been refused Christian burial.

  • I was an I&C technician and instructor at the Indian Point 3 nuclear power plant in NY State when Mario Cuomo shutdown the newly built Shoreham nuclear power plant on Long Island. I worked at Indian Point 3 for 18 years (from 1982 to 2000). Through most of that time the plant was owned by the New York Power Authority whose head is the governor of the state (in 2000 NYPA sold it to Entergy Nuclear). We all feared for our jobs in the late 1980s when Mario created LIPA to buy Shoreham for $1.00 from LILCO in order to decommission a brand new nuclear power plant whose fuel had been irradiated briefly only once during startup testing. Our plant manager at Indian Point 3 was taken from us and assigned to LIPA to oversee the de-commissioning. He has described it as the most depressing event of his career. Now his son Andy has been re-elected as governor and has been working with Riverkeeper – that eco-wako group – to shutdown Indian Point just as his father shutdown Shoreham. Andy has been doing this since he was NY Attorney General. It is therefore without coincident that both men advocate the murder of unborn babies and the sanctification of the filth of homosexual sodomy. It is all about constricting the energy supply, emasculating the military and police, stupidifying the education system, restricting health care access, and denigrating the morals of the populace. But Andy takes his apostasy and heresy to new depths of infamy – both men ostensibly Roman Catholic. Andy, having been married, now lives in adultery with his concubine Sandra Day, and has received Holy Communion from Bishop Hubbard of Albany (the same Bishop who authorized distribution of needles to Albany’s heroin addicts instead of working to get them sober) while in this state of mortal sin contrary to what St. Paul commanded in Romans chapter 11. So I have shed not one tear for Mario or for his family. What that man did to NY and what his son Andy is currently doing is abominable. But the people of NY voted for both of them, and they have gotten what they deserve.
    .
    By the way, the anti-nukes finally got Entergy’s Vermont Yankee nuclear power plant in Brattleboro shutdown – 70% of the state’s clean electricity gone. It was all arranged by collusion between profiteers in the natural gas industry, Hydro Quebec, and liberal progressive Democrat politicians in the Vermont legislature. Rest assured that Andy has Indian Point 2 and 3 that supplies 2000+ MW of safe, clean, low-cost electricity to NYC’s transit system on the chopping block, but the idiot has banned fracking for natural gas in NY State, so there will be NO electrical power when needed. This is what liberal progressive Democrats do. Yes, I despise, loathe, abhor, and detest the whole lot of them. They have robbed well-paying jobs from tens of thousands of people and ruined the lives of hundreds of thousands, not to mention the millions and millions of babies whom they have murdered.
    .
    And the Roman Catholic Church in the United States CELEBRATES men like Mario Cuomo and Ted Kennedy! Can you imagine if this were the Church at Corinth in Greece what letter St. Paul would have written for his third? Can you imagine the scathing they would get?
    .
    Always vote AGAINST the Democrats. And write your Bishop about this corruption.
    .
    BTW, I think NY State is in strong competition with Don’s native Illinois for its level of corruption.

  • A Mass was said for the repose of Castellano’s soul, which is all any soul and person needs. It was Castellano’s business to bless himself while alive and since he did not, the Catholic Church respected his wish.
    .
    Avoiding scandal to parishioners is necessary as parishioners had already been scandalized enough by Castellano’s lifestyle.
    .
    Mario Cuomo had been a great influence or rather scandal by moving a great number of peopel from the sanctuary into the abortuary.

  • I suppose many bishops believe it is worse to be accused of playing partisan
    politics than it is to give their flock the impression that they couldn’t care
    less about what public, notorious and unrepentant sinners get up to. Trouble
    is, by dodging their responsibility to the faithful to admonish these public,
    notorious and unrepentant sinners, they do give them political cover. In effect,
    by shirking their duty, these milquetoast bishops are playing partisan
    politics.
    .
    I recall when back in ’96 the great Bishop Fabian Bruskiewicz of Lincoln, Nebraska
    released a list of organizations Catholics of his diocese were forbidden to remain
    with or join– Planned Parenthood, Catholics for a Free Choice, Freemasons,
    Call to Action, etc.. The penalty for joining or remaining with the organizations
    listed was excommunication, which could only be lifted by the bishop. It was all
    really pretty straightforward, and the Catholics I know were all pretty much of
    the opinion that it was a shame that what should be common sense had to be
    legislated like that. What was truly embarrassing and cringe-making was the
    reaction of most of the other American bishops. Many of +Bruskiewicz’ fellow
    bishops released public statements criticizing his decision and declaring it
    ‘unpastoral’– basically, his brother bishops reacted with a collective eye roll
    and a smirk.
    .
    I very much doubt that our Lord went to the trouble to create our hierarchal
    Church so that its shepherds could “lead from behind”, mouth the words “who
    am I to judge?”, and let their flock form their faith on their own or fall in
    with some other shepherd…

  • Let’s be honest. There are three cardinals who run the USCCB. They are +Dolan of NYC, +O’Malley of Boston and +Wuerl of Washington. All three favor the Democrat Party and its views on social policy. All three favor giving Communion to whoever shows up in line. All three have a say in who gets to become a bishop, archbishop of Cardinal in the USA. +Wuerl’s fingerprints are all over the +Cupich appointment. To Wuerl, Dolan and O’Malley, Canon Law 915 is a “weapon” (Wuerl’s interpretation of it).

    They will NEVER speak out against any Democrat who supports abortion. NEVER – unless the Holy Spirit grabs them by the collars and shakes some sense into them.

    +Dolan will say nothing about father or son Cuomo’s abortion support. Nothing.

    Abortion will end in the United States when we say enough rosaries, throw out abortionist politicians and withhold money for so-called Catholic charities like CCHD.

  • “I very much doubt that our Lord went to the trouble to create our hierarchal
    Church so that its shepherds could “lead from behind”, mouth the words “who
    am I to judge?”, and let their flock form their faith on their own or fall in
    with some other shepherd…”

    Comment of the week Clinton! Take ‘er away Sam!

  • ‘Naturally, those who die under “some sentence or censure” promulgated against them have always been refused Christian burial.’

    Not a bad point MPS. Where is the courage in waiting until they are dead before kicking them in the _____?

  • I wonder if any bishops could ever be refused Christian burial? Is Weakland still alive?

  • sorry my comment was really uncharitable.

    Is there any idea that Mr Cuomo has made a good confession or any attempt to rectify his actions?

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  • Anzlyne wrote, “I wonder if any bishops could ever be refused Christian burial? Is Weakland still alive?”

    Cranmer, Latimer and Ridley spring to mind.

  • 100% agreement with DRM on this one. But I think the accolades will far exceed the condemnations.

  • Each of the men mentioned in the article gave public scandal to their faith while living. At death they were each given a particular judgment by Our Savior. They are each currently reaping their just rewards. However, it is very disheartening for me to see the leaders(supposed) of our Church here in America be so fearful of using Church law to repudiate sinful actions. By this I’m referring to Canon 915. Someone mentioned the Bishop from Lincoln, Nebraska, who did exercise his duties(correctly I believe) and how his fellow Bishops did nothing. Bottom line for all the great comments here is a complete lack of real leadership for our beloved faith in our Church. Check out all the Churches that have closed in America over the last ten years. Does anyone really think a Bishop would make a stand on an issue that this topic discusses? They would have to close another 50 to 75% of their churches. It all boils down to the collection basket. What could ever motivate them to make a tough decision that would devastate their revenue stream? FAITH would be my answer. Must not be much of that floating around, amongst the effeminate folks in our American USCCB. While I haven’t acted as of this writing, I’m actually considering giving to a cloistered order rather than in my parish.

  • The Venerable Fulton J. Sheen famously said, “Right is right if nobody is right, and wrong is wrong if everybody is wrong.” The problem with Cuomo is he basically is wrong about following bishops who don’t uphold the teachings of the faith. As he said, the polls indicate that 67% of the public want the bishops to mind their own business and 61% of Catholics concur. So Cuomo (like Jack Kennedy who planted this logic during his campaign for president) is following the polls not the teachings of the Pope. He is an apostate by rejecting the authority of the Pope and the Church and should be denied a Catholic Funeral.

    He also questioned when life begins. This is another pretend Catholic canard. All Cuomo need do is buy a science book. All he need to do is view a 4D sonogram. All he need do is view a section abortion. All he need do is follow the teachings of the Church.

    I also find Cuomo’s complaint about Democrats being criticized for their position on abortion has a significantly higher rate than Republicans. Sad, very sad that he thinks this is a political issue……this is a religious issue where people like Cuomo abandon the teachings of the Church for political purposes.

  • I wrote my own post on this on Saturday where I discussed Cuomo’s public scandal. Rather than clog your com-box, I offer the link if you’d like to connect to it since everyone here seems to be on the same page. Please feel free to share if you think it’s helpful.
    https://exmagnasilentium.wordpress.com/2015/01/03/mario-cuomo-new-york-governor-and-public-heretic/

  • Dennis Malone: “So Cuomo (like Jack Kennedy who planted this logic during his campaign for president) is following the polls not the teachings of the Pope.”
    .
    Robert Drinan begot the notion that: “I am personally opposed to abortion but I cannot impose my morality on anyone.” It was first presented to the Kennedys and has outlived its inventor.
    .
    It never bothered Drinan that he imposed his immorality on a whole nation and made us pay for it.

  • Father Drinan was a Jesuit, that about says it all….

  • Following in the infamous footsteps of Pontius Pilate who was personally opposed to crucifying Our Lord but……. Praying for only one public confession from a liberal Catholic Democrat at the end of life. Oh, the temerity of a self-righteous soul. How pitifully tragic.

  • Sorry but I must disagree. As a conservative Catholic & a politically conservative Republican, I have always vehemently disagreed w/ “Catholic” politicians who are pro-“choice”. I have written to many of them (including Ted Kennedy after his fatal condition was announced & his son Patrick who embroiled himself in a feud w/ his bishop) and have included booklets In in my correspondence urging them to come back to the teachings of the Church. No one knows the content of their last confession – perhaps Mario Cuomo had a “come to Jesus” moment. I believe in hell for the unrepentant mortal sinner and I believe in the absolution of sin thru an honest and sincere partaking in the sacrament of confession. I will leave the judgement to God.

    I do wish the Bishops would withhold Holy Communion from Catholics who advocate for legalized abortion. To me, that would be a “teaching moment” and might instruct a wayward Catholic sinner back to the path of grace.

  • “No one knows the content of their last confession – perhaps Mario Cuomo had a “come to Jesus” moment.”

    I pray that he did, but such a private moment in no way alters the public scandal of his life, and such a public scandal is why the Church has forbidden public funeral masses in the past.

  • yes Bob- “Following in the infamous footsteps of Pontius Pilate who was personally opposed …” Although it makes me squirm. I seek that coherence, that integrity of truth and struggle with exactly how to hate the sin and love the sinner. Am I in some way giving a pass, even though I am “personally opposed” when I don’t dissociate myself from my loved one in the “lifestyle” and I don’t even bring it up , only rarely, in our daily interactions.

  • A. Cloney: “I do wish the Bishops would withhold Holy Communion from Catholics who advocate for legalized abortion. To me, that would be a “teaching moment” and might instruct a wayward Catholic sinner back to the path of grace.”
    .
    When King David committed adultery with Bathsheba and murdered Uriah, the first born son, of adultery, died shortly after his birth, and God removed from King David the favor of building the Temple. God told David that his son, Solomon would build that Temple. And Solomon built the Temple. This is legal precedent that God’s favors are to be removed from the sinful for their past sins, for even King David was contrite and forgiven, and Solomon built the Temple.

  • of course I am not in the position of authority that Pontius had– or am I? As his mother could my concerted and aggressive fight back bring about a change of his course?

  • My thoughts were that of an honest good confession near death. How do we know, and how do we not judge. It makes me sick really that the Church has been lead down this path as it is very confusing. And very hard to raise up children in the “truths” of the faith when the powers that be seem to be exonerated in such fashion. I like the idea of a family Mass. But then again I am sure that Mario felt he was doing the “work” of the Lord and there was collateral damage taken in the deaths of the unborn. You know, survival of the fittest and all. Sort of like the “just war” theory. One can just about rationalize anything now, can we.

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  • The difference between a true pastor and shepherd, and, well, I don’t think I need to finish that sentence.

    The two bishops were/are very different from each other. Would that we had more Churchmen such as O’Connor.

  • Jeanne Rohl: The unborn are morally and legally innocent virgins, the standard of Justice for the state, our constitutional posterity. The duty of the state (Cuomo) is to deliver Justice and to protect and defend the innocent. The just war theory is based on defending the innocent and to deliver Justice. Cuomo may be judged for his sinfulness as well as for his ignorance to which he clung for his life.
    .
    Now, the left is crying “foul” The Right to Life has scientific DNA and ultrasound to prove the person in the womb exists and existence is the criterion for the objective ordering of human rights. The Right to Life has all the proof and The Right to Choose has nothing. The Right to Choose is crying “unfair”. The Right to Life took our arguments away for us and without a leg to stand on, it is unfair. Ignorance untrampled. Human sacrifice.

  • What is remarkable is that we should be focused on all the great things Governor Cuomo accomplished for the great state of New York…. The greatest thing about the Roman Catholic church is that there is room at the table for all God’s children and all those who seek God. I personally don’t believe in ending a pregnancy, but I do believe whole heartedly in birth control. I am a christian, a catholic and I’m sure I would be at odds with many who post here.

    Even more remarkable is that the social justice teaching of the church is what motivates the liberals and like me, the moderates. The anti abortion folks are motivated to save lives… so are the pro choice people…. they aren’t having the same conversation, but they are motivated by similar principles…..and Satan continues to divide us.. Shame

  • “The anti abortion folks are motivated to save lives… so are the pro choice people…. they aren’t having the same conversation, but they are motivated by similar principles…..and Satan continues to divide us.. Shame”

    This sentence sums up why a million unborn children are sent to their deaths in this country each year with the acquiescence of people like Andy who I am sure views himself as a good Catholic.

  • What is remarkable is that we should be focused on all the great things Governor Cuomo accomplished for the great state of New York

    So, how long have you been employed in the Democratic State Committee’s press office?

  • Andy, I can’t believe you wrote that we should focus on all the great things Cuomo did for NY. I will repeat what I have written before. I was an I&C technician and a training instructor at the Indian Point 3 nuclear power plant in NY State when Mario Cuomo shutdown the newly built Shoreham nuclear power plant on Long Island. I had worked at Indian Point 3 for 18 years (from 1982 to 2000). Through most of that time the plant was owned by the New York Power Authority whose head is the governor of the state (in 2000 NYPA sold it to Entergy Nuclear). We all feared for our jobs in the late 1980s when Mario created LIPA to buy Shoreham for $1.00 from LILCO in order to decommission a brand new nuclear power plant whose fuel had been irradiated briefly only once during startup testing. Our plant manager at Indian Point 3 was taken from us and assigned to LIPA to oversee the de-commissioning. He has described it as the most depressing event of his career. Now his son Andy has been re-elected as governor and has been working with Riverkeeper – that eco-wako group – to shutdown Indian Point just as his father shutdown Shoreham. Andy has been doing this since he was NY Attorney General. It is therefore without coincident that both men advocate the murder of unborn babies and the sanctification of the filth of homosexual sodomy. It is all about constricting the energy supply, emasculating the military and police, stupidifying the education system, restricting health care access, and denigrating the morals of the populace. But Andy takes his apostasy and heresy to new depths of infamy – both men ostensibly Roman Catholic. Andy, having been married, now lives in adultery with his concubine Sandra Day, and has received Holy Communion from Bishop Hubbard of Albany (the same Bishop who authorized distribution of needles to Albany’s heroin addicts instead of working to get them sober) while in this state of mortal sin contrary to what St. Paul commanded in Romans chapter 11. So I have shed not one tear for Mario or for his family. What that man did to NY and what his son Andy is currently doing is abominable. But the people of NY voted for both of them, and they have gotten what they deserve. By the way, the anti-nukes finally got Entergy’s Vermont Yankee nuclear power plant in Brattleboro shutdown – 70% of the state’s clean electricity gone. It was all arranged by collusion between profiteers in the natural gas industry, Hydro Quebec, and liberal progressive Democrat politicians in the Vermont legislature. Rest assured that Andy has Indian Point 2 and 3 that supplies 2000+ MW of safe, clean, low-cost electricity to NYC’s transit system on the chopping block, but the idiot has banned fracking for natural gas in NY State, so there will be NO electrical power when needed. This is what liberal progressive Democrats do. Yes, I despise, loathe, abhor, and detest the whole lot of them. They have robbed well-paying jobs from tens of thousands of people and ruined the lives of hundreds of thousands, not to mention the millions and millions of babies whom they have murdered.
    .
    This is what the Lord Jesus Christ says in Matthew chapter 22 about people like Mario and Andy:
    .
    11 “But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment; 12 and he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. 13 Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, and cast him into the outer darkness; there men will weep and gnash their teeth.’ 14 For many are called, but few are chosen.”

  • Andy I can’t believe you don’t recognize that abortion is killing a person.
    …and “greatest thing about the Roman Catholic church is that there is room at the table for -all God’s children and all those who seek God- ..” Sometimes we are a little cavalier with counting ourselves in the intimacy of God’s family.
    IMO too many people give themselves a cozy place as a son or daughter of God when daily actually rejecting the authority and love of God as Father.

    John 8:44,”You are from your father the devil, and you choose to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
    1 JOhn 3:10 “The children of God and the children of the devil are revealed in this way: all who do not do what is right are not from God, nor are those who do not love their brothers and sisters.*
    Romans 8:14 “For all who are led by the Spirit of God are children of God.

  • Andy: “The anti abortion folks are motivated to save lives… so are the pro choice people…. they aren’t having the same conversation, but they are motivated by similar principles…..and Satan continues to divide us.. Shame”
    .
    Abortion to save the life of the mother is, in fact, Thomas Aquinas’ just war theory. To save the life of the mother, the mother’s death must be imminent, right here, right now. The mother’s death may not be a prognosis, nor an absolute without her death presenting itself imminently. Without the danger of the mother’s death presenting itself, abortion is homicide, the intentional murder of an innocent sovereign human being without his being given due process of law.

  • Paul. It breaks my heart to align myself against nuclear power in that unless common people learn to control that power and respect that power, it may not be in their best interest. (and this from folks who do not know what to do with the power of regeneration, of producing our constitutional posterity. Saint Paul said that if you do not know what to do with it, cut it off. and Paul, I know you know where that may be annotated).
    .
    I also remember that it was discovered that the Indian Point nuclear plant was built on an earthquake fault. That the rock was already split and fissured and that it was only a matter of time. and Yes, I am a fussbudget and we may never get to Mars, but the immediate concern was that of sparing the population at hand. So many escape routes were put forth. However, in a true emergency, those escape routes will be clogged with empty gas tanked cars and trucks as when Sandy clogged the N.J. Turnpike, and Floyd clogged every westward escape route in South Carolina.
    .
    I am for nuclear power to propel us to Mars, Yay. even if we come back all green and funny looking from radiation in outer space. And I am for nuclear power going forward with the information we have at hand, here and now. But I do not trust a race of people who embrace the destruction of their own posterity without reason.

  • Mary, all nuke plants including Indian Point have to be designed for worst case earthquake per 10 CFR 50 Apoendix S located here:
    .
    http://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-collections/cfr/part050/part050-apps.html
    .
    There is a Regulatory Guide for Seismic Design Classification – RG-1.29. It is located here:
    .
    http://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-collections/reg-guides/power-reactors/rg/01-029/01-029.pdf
    .
    The provisions for such design must be detailed in the plant’s Final Safety Analysis Report.
    .
    When an earthquake happens, I would feel safest in being at a nuclear power plant, including Indian Point, because I have seen the steel rebar as thick as a man’s arm, concrete 6 feet thick, piping held by huge hangers and snubbers, etc. Mary, with all due respect you have no idea of the robustness of the design.
    .
    BTW, it wasn’t the Tohoku earthquake that damaged the Fukushima reactors. It was the tsunami that flooded the intakes of the emergency diesel generators which caused loss of power and thus loss of cooling. The lesson is simple: don’t put your darn diesels on the shoreline. Bad engineering has bad consequences. One other thing – that can’t happen at Indian Point on the Hudson River because the diesels are located well above river flood level.
    .
    When I find NRC Inspection Reports on Indian Point seismic, I will post them. Be more concerned about an earthquake cracking the Kensico Dam and flooding the millions in downstream White Plains.

  • Thank you again, Paul. I did believe that Fukushima was caused by the earthquake. Wasn’t Indian Head built before earthquake design was introduced and before the fissure was ever found? Yes, and I remember the Johnstown flood. and I am a worrywart. God bless and keep you, Paul. You are making of me a convert to nuclear energy.

Cuomo to Pro-lifers: Get Out of New York

Saturday, January 18, AD 2014

Andrew Cuomo

Andrew Cuomo, the “Catholic” shacked up, pro-abort Governor of New York, doesn’t believe that pro-lifers have any place in the state of New York.  Mary Katharine Ham at Hot Air gives us the details:

 

Forty-eight percent of Americans and all priests and nuns are no longer welcome in the Empire State, according to its governor. Delivering a monologue on Republicans with all the hyperbole of an MSNBC anchor and none of the charm, Cuomo offered this:

You have a schism within the Republican Party. … They’re searching to define their soul, that’s what’s going on. Is the Republican party in this state a moderate party or is it an extreme conservative party? That’s what they’re trying to figure out. It’s a mirror of what’s going on in Washington. The gridlock in Washington is less about Democrats and Republicans. It’s more about extreme Republicans versus moderate Republicans.

… You’re seeing that play out in New York. … The Republican Party candidates are running against the SAFE Act — it was voted for by moderate Republicans who run the Senate! Their problem is not me and the Democrats; their problem is themselves. Who are they? Are they these extreme conservatives who are right-to-life, pro-assault-weapon, anti-gay? Is that who they are? Because if that’s who they are and they’re the extreme conservatives, they have no place in the state of New York, because that’s not who New Yorkers are.

    If they’re moderate Republicans like in the Senate right now, who control the Senate — moderate Republicans have a place in their state. George Pataki was governor of this state as a moderate Republican; but not what you’re hearing from them on the far right.”

He at least uses the liberal pejoratives for those who are pro-2nd Amendment and oppose gay marriage. “Right to life” he uses as if it’s offensive on its face. As Life News notes, he leans heavily on the President Barack tactic to simply declare everyone who disagrees with your positions in the slightest “extreme,” even if many of those people are your constituents. But how extreme is the pro-life position, even in a blue state like New York? Unlike, say, gay marriage, the polling on abortion restrictions, particularly second and third trimesters, regularly and overwhelmingly favors the more conservative position.

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53 Responses to Cuomo to Pro-lifers: Get Out of New York

  • “…President of Notre Dame, Father Theodore Hesburgh, a man who had privately condemned pro-lifers as ‘mindless zealots’…”

    “…and all priests and nuns…”

    Well, perhaps most priests and nuns.

  • It’s possible, based on the context of the quote (an inside baseball discussion of New York party politics) that what Cuomo meant was that pro-lifers “have no place” in Republican party politics in his state, because the voters won’t accept them (“that’s not who New Yorkers are”). He may not have literally meant “All persons who hold pro-life convictions are no longer welcome in my state and should move out.” Of course, even the first interpretation is distressing enough, and chances are that Cuomo wouldn’t mind a bit if all those “extremist” pro-lifers left the state anyway. They probably ARE already leaving, given recent population losses.

  • Elaine: What will Andrew say to the devil, when the devil comes to claim his bride? Ignorance? What will Andrew say when God says: “Your brother’s blood cries out to me from the ground.” I am personally opposed, but I cannot impose your morality”?
    Human sacrifice, the destruction of an individual substance of a rational nature, St. Thomas Aquinas’ definition of the person, is the primary form of devil worship. Hitler did it, Stalin did it, Roe v. Wade is doing it. If Andrew Cuomo can prove that he is not an individual substance of a rational nature, he may be exhonorated.
    The human body who the rational soul is forming may not be destroyed for the sins, crimes and immorality of his parents or anyone else’s crimes, for this is the ultimate in the destruction of Justice and with the destruction of Justice is the destruction of the state, starting with Cuomo.

  • I don’t think if it matters if he actually really meant pack up your vans and SUVs and get out of state. He made it clear that they just would not be in lured in politics or discussions. Shunning.
    I encourage everyone to click on the Hesburgh link provided in the text . It leads you to an awesome pastoral review article. First rate.

  • I don’t know what Cuomo will have to say at the time of his final judgment, thought I personally would rather not be in that position.

    However, I CAN think of something that other governors, particularly NJ Gov. Chris Christie, could say in response: “Anyone who wants to live in, visit or start a business in my state is welcome regardless of their political leanings or their views regarding abortion, gun control, same-sex marriage or any other issue. Those who disagree with our current law regarding these matters are welcome to try to change them through the political process just like anyone else. The ultimate decision is up to the voters.”

  • That odd “lured” word was meant to be “included”. That kind of thing sometimes happens when I text – the iPhone Spell Guesser! 😉

  • Elaine: What Cuomo said was that he was not going to represent his constituency because of their beliefs. Taxation without representation…religious discrimination, abdication of office, imposition of de facto tyranny.

  • Sorry, Anzlyne, you and Elaine are two stalwarts of the truth and common sense and I love you both.
    Hesburg has been bougth and sold into the population control mob irregardless of the humanity of the child, disregarding that the innocence of the newly conceived is the standard of Justice for the state. Hesburg has erased Justice for the state.

  • Godless, iniquitous, idolatrous liberal progressive Democrat. But I repeat myself.

    PS, Andy who is trying to sjutdown the Indian Point nuclear power plants is as anti-nuclear power as his father Mario who shutdown the multibillion dollar Shoreham nuclear power plant on Long Island right after it was built.

    Democrats strangle energy supplies and health care access just as they strangle the necks of unborn babies. It took a Civil War to free the slaves. What do we think Cuomo is aching for now? God have mercy!

  • Thanks Mary! You, I, and the Homiletic Pastoral Review article (that is the link mentioned)- all agree about Father Hesburgh

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  • When 7000 screaming pagans attacked a Cathedral near the Popes home town of Buenos Aries he never made a peep and if he doesn’t excommunicate this pompous so n’ so and a few others of his kind then I have to wonder what his agenda really is. I joined the Church after several years as a Protestant because Pope John Paul II was the only Christian leader showing some spine (plus I believe in the Doctrine of the Church). Christ cleared the Temple of not just the money changers but of those practicing pagan Roman rituals. John the XXIII excomunicated Castro; Beckett and Thomas More stood up to Kings. We don’t need a “buddy to the world” as Pope what we need is maybe a Dagger John.

  • So extreme conservatives do it!
    Take him for his word. Get out. Shake the dust off your loafers as you leave and by All means…Don’t Look Back!

    Mindless zealots like Christopher Bell and his great string of Good Counsel Homes for young mothers in New Jersey and New York. His pro-life mindlessness has saved souls. But if they, the extremist, leave woe to the young mothers that found refuge in the great state of New York.

  • Amen Trubuchet: “screaming pagans attacked a Cathedral near the Popes home town of Buenos Aries he never made a peep – “

  • Cuomo’s statements also reflect the schism within the Catholic Church.
    The deranged, fanatical, extremist pro-life, traditional Catholics, who hate
    gays, oppose the normal, tolerant, open-minded, generous and loving
    Catholics, who support modern moral attitudes and who understand the
    importance of bringing the Church into the modern world.

  • “Cuomo’s statements also reflect the schism within the Catholic Church. The deranged, fanatical, extremist pro-life, traditional Catholics, who hate gays, oppose the normal, tolerant, open-minded, generous and loving Catholics, who support modern moral attitudes and who understand the importance of bringing the Church into the modern world.”

    God’s law does not change. Human sacrifice of innocent souls, un-natural marriage, embrace of heresy, rejection of our God-given free will and unalienable human rights, will not bring anything good into the modern culture. Even the Supreme Court requires the Truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Injecting fallacy, half truths and perjury into the Supreme Court is akin to treason and against the Justice of the Constitution.

  • I’ve never been to that state except to drive through it, but I’ll make a point of buying nothing, except if necessary gas, if Cuomo insists.

  • Franco.
    “the modern world.”

    Christ overcame the world and He doesn’t change. The WORD made flesh so we have union….communion.
    One God.

    Open to truth. Open to fashions of a modern world….never my friend. Never.

    I love my homosexual brothers and prove it by gently inserting the WORD of God into their hearts. It’s what Jesus did. Sin no more and live an abundant life. Let the love you mention be Christian love which is eternal.
    Then the tolerant one who knows each heart can rejoice at the bounty of souls that heard the WORD and acted accordingly. Glory be to God in the Highest and Peace to His people on Earth.

  • Response to Franco:

    “Cuomo’s statements also reflect the schism within the Catholic Church.”

    100% correct. This is a fight between apostates and heretics, and those loyal to the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, to 2000 years of Sacred Tradition and to Sacred Scripture.

    “The deranged, fanatical, extremist pro-life, traditional Catholics…”

    The prophet Jeremiah was so deranged, fanatical and extremely pro-life that he wrote in chapter 19, verses 4 through 6, “Because the people have forsaken me, and have profaned this place by burning incense in it to other gods whom neither they nor their fathers nor the kings of Judah have known; and because they have filled this place with the blood of innocents, and have built the high places of Ba′al to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Ba′al, which I did not command or decree, nor did it come into my mind; therefore, behold, days are coming, says the Lord, when this place shall no more be called To′pheth, or the valley of the son of Hinnom, but the valley of Slaughter.”

    “… who hate gays…”

    Real Christians do not hate gays. In fact, we all have our sexual problems and failures. We would not be human if we didn’t. But a real Christian will hate the sanctification of sodomy as marriage. He will hate sexual perversion paraded as normal, and he will hate it as much in himself as in anyone else. He will hate turning God’s gift of sexual pleasure into an addiction no different than that of heroin or cocaine.

    “…oppose the normal, tolerant, open-minded, generous and loving Catholics…”

    Being a normal Christian means giving one’s life for the Gospel of Conversion and Righteousness. No one was more intolerant than Jesus when He called the Pharisees a brood of vipers, and when He whipped the money changers out of the Temple. It is one thing to be tolerant and accepting of different people. It is entirely different to be tolerant of principles and beliefs that are inherently immoral and evil, which send people to burn forever in hell. Generosity is exemplified in Jesus, the Apostles and the early Church Fathers who gave their lives for the Faith, so that people would be saved from the eternal fires of damnation.

    “…who support modern moral attitudes and who understand the importance of bringing the Church into the modern world…”

    There is no substantive difference between the infanticide and sodomy of the modern world, and that of ancient Rome where babies were left to die on hilltops and where old men preyed on young boys. The modern world is a reversion to the godless paganism of antiquity, something to which Andy Cuomo, his father Mario and the rest of the liberal progressive Democrats wish the world to return. It is the Church Who opposes this, and stands in their way, which is why they hate the Church. And it is Jesus Christ who will finally defeat this and send it to eternal hell where it belongs. From Revelation 19:11-21:

    Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! He who sat upon it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems; and he has a name inscribed which no one knows but himself. He is clad in a robe dipped in[c] blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, followed him on white horses. From his mouth issues a sharp sword with which to smite the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron; he will tread the wine press of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has a name inscribed, King of kings and Lord of lords.

    Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and with a loud voice he called to all the birds that fly in midheaven, “Come, gather for the great supper of God, to eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all men, both free and slave, both small and great.” And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to make war against him who sits upon the horse and against his army. And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had worked the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with brimstone. And the rest were slain by the sword of him who sits upon the horse, the sword that issues from his mouth; and all the birds were gorged with their flesh.

    —–

    Buckle up. God is love and He loves souls so much that He will do whatever is necessary to save the lives of innocent babies and rescue souls from the everlasting inferno of the punishment due sin, even if that means allowing Civil War once again. May He have mercy!

  • “Evil preaches tolerance until it is dominant and then it seeks to silence the good.” Archbishop Chaput.

    Whether the Archbishop intended it or not, never was there a better description of the platform of the Democratic Party, or President Obama, or Governor Cuomo.

  • Paul.

    Tolerant.
    It’s so one sided by the libs.

    Jesus is forgiving and has tolerated so much already, I wonder when his Justice will prevail? I pray that I’m ready when the curtain comes down.

  • Correct, Philip: “Jesus is forgiving and has tolerated so much already, I wonder when his Justice will prevail? I pray that I’m ready when the curtain comes down.”

    I have a great many faults. That is why I do not want to condemn a gay person or an addict or anyone else struggling with his sins, for I struggle with my own, and I am darn certain that I know what I deserve – hell. Thank God I am not there.

    But there is a difference in the case of a leader like Cuomo who parades intrinsic evil as a human right, and condemns conservative Christians for who are trying to live a right life and support what is right.

    This idea that I hate gays because I oppose gay marriage, or I condemn women because they for whatever reason had an abortion is completely wrong. I can hate gay marriage and abortion but still love the gay person and the woman who had an abortion. Yet there is a great deal of contempt and disgust in my heart for politicians and religious leaders who advocate gay marriage and abortion as human rights.

    I do not condemn the gay person or the woman who had the abortion. But I despise the politicians and religious leaders who grease the skids to hell. How the heck does that make me intolerant – that I oppose the pagan hedonism of antiquity? There is nothing modern or unique or novel about this. It is all the same old sickening perversion and bloody murder which afflicted ancient Greece and Rome alike. Today’s liberal progressive Democrats are children of the ruthless pagan murderers of AD 100 who sent Christians to be fed to the lions, and Cuomo’s invective proves it.

    God help me that I do not go to hell for my sins. Nor do I want anyone else to go to hell for theirs. That is why Jesus died on the Cross. Yes, I am intolerant. Maybe I should die that way.

    🙁

  • Negative Paul. You should die with the faith of our Holy Martyrs. A faith that reads All Your’s my beloved Father. I struggle with this era of paganism as well, and am humbled by the faith you and other contributors share on this site.

    You are a good and faithful servant and your justifiable angst is fitting to this age.

  • He’s an extreme liberal – of course he’s going to bash the side of the opposition that presents the strongest impediment to the Peoples’ Democratic fascist rule. He loves wishy-washy, spineless, no-principle, “moderate” Republicans because he knows the Democrats always slaughter them.
    .
    He is the epitomal slimy politician, and an anti-Liberty fascist at that. But we see through you, Mr. Cuomo. Unlike the administration of your party’s current Grand High Instigator, you are transparent.

  • Please take 5 minutes to view this moving video; my generation will end abortion.

    I just found it.
    It is worth the it.

    http://www.lifenews.com/2014/01/17/viral-video-marks-41-years-of-abortions-in-5-minutes-my-generation-will-end-abortion/

    Thank you and God bless You for your prayers and sacrifices to end legalized abortions in our Nation and around the world.

  • Opps…sorry.
    Its worth it.

  • Philip,

    I was being a bit sarcastic. Of course, traditional Catholics do not hate gays,
    which would be a grave sin. Nor, do I believe traditional Catholics are
    deranged. Unfortunately, traditional Catholics, who are good Catholics,
    are portrayed as cruel, intolerant, etc.

  • I surely wish someone had told my great great grandmother Catherine that she was not welcome in New York, when she came here from the Rhineland, with her children, in 1858.

    Perhaps the French should take back that statue in the harbor since some of us, the politically incorrect ones, are not welcomed here.

  • hey that’s interesting Karl! I have ancestors that were New Yorkers too – in the 17 and 1800’s. Anyway that reminded me that we could claim identity with New Yorkers who are pro-life, pro marriage etc. and say with a resounding voice “I am a New Yorker!” like JFK ” I am a Berliner” only 20 years after the war… I am a New Yorker and I am Pro Life! Solidarity with them.

    About the extreme label: notice that we Catholic pro-lifers have stayed the same and the whole general scale has moved to the left.

  • “Someone plagiarized.”

    It isn’t plagiarism Jordan when the post directly sources the cited material, which is precisely what I did.

  • Franco.

    Thank you. I understand where your coming from. I apologize for the mis-read. 🙂

  • Philip.

    It’s my fault. Sorry.

  • My apologies to Franco, also. Sarcasm is difficult to convey electronically.

  • Franco: If it is sarcasm please put it in parentheses. I too, thought that you were serious.

  • NY Pro-lifers to Cuomo: (censored via custody of the tongue). Rural areas seethe with pro-life, pro-2nd Amendment, anti-redefinition-of-marriage sentiment, and the fact that we’re in no hurry to change really disturbs our urban betters. Funny that. Our votes are a drop in the bucket, why not just laugh at us? Oh right, I forgot. The Tolerant Left will brook no dissent.
    Red states out there, if you wish to keep your freedoms, keep your cities in check.

  • I had intended to write something about Cuomo’s concubinage with Sandra Lee. Being a human being having failed at sexual purity myself, I find it hard to condemn a man for loving a woman while he is divorced. That does not mean that I condone or excuse the less than ideal behavior in someone else or myself. It is objectively wrong. What it means is that I can understand the behavior without condoning or excusing it. I am reminded of that phrase, “Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.” I doubt any of us commenting here are sexually pure. Indeed, even Kings David and Solomon had their legions of concubines. That said, a leader like Cuomo nevertheless has a responsibility to put forth a good example. He should keep his concubinage private if he cannot keep from loving his concubine (I give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that he does love her). But what is truly reprehensible about Cuomo isn’t him doing what David and Solomon did before him, but his open adulation of the infanticide of the unborn, and the sanctification of same sex relations as marriage. He claims to be Catholic and he deliberately opposes Church teaching in the most public ways. Then he flaunts his concubinage in the public’s face. I truly don’t care what he does in private, or what two gay people do in private. But please keep it private. I personally reserve disclosure of my sins for the Confessional without which I would surely go to hell.

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  • I’m still waiting for Cardinal Dolan to “talk turkey” with Cuomo.

    I thought Mario Cuomo was overbearing. This Cuomo is obnoxious. New York City elected the obnoxious DeBlasio and New york State (largely NYC and its suburbs) elected Cuomo the Younger.

    I wouldn’t live in New York if my life depended on it. In Pennsylvania, we have the Democrats trying to use Philadelphia City and its suburbs to turn Pennsylvania into another New York State. Democrats are organized crime.

  • Update: The governor’s office has issued a clarification statement:

    “the Governor was making the observation that an extreme right candidate cannot win statewide because this is a politically moderate state (either moderate Republican or moderate Democratic).

  • Here’s the link to the full statement:

    http://www.governor.ny.gov/01192014statement

    My post above got cut off so here is the complete quote I meant to use:

    “The New York Post distorted Governor Cuomo’s words yesterday, saying that the Governor said “conservatives should leave New York.” The Governor did not say that, nor does he believe that.

    “If you read the transcript (below), it is clear that the Governor was making the observation that an extreme right candidate cannot win statewide because this is a politically moderate state (either moderate Republican or moderate Democratic).

    “In the same response, the Governor went on to say “it is fine” to be anti-gun control, and anti-choice” – as he respects both positions.”

    Note, however, the intentional use of the loaded terms “anti-choice” to describe pro-lifers and “anti-gun control” to describe those favoring the personal right to bear arms.

    I also note that the exact same argument about “extreme right” pro-life, etc. candidates being unelectable to statewide office is often made regarding Illinois politics; I would presume it’s also applicable to California and other “blue” states dominated by one or more major metropolitan areas that always outvote the rural/small/medium size cities.

  • Guilty on all counts.

    This is (just about) the one-year anniversary when Cuomo and his band of brigands (legislature) made me (for my so-called assault weapons) a New York State felon.

    I plan to emigrate to America as soon as practicable.

  • The so-called governor is inciting civil unrest with his remarks. Paul Primavera used the phrase, Civil War, in a few posts this week and I found that difficult to digest. After listening to Cuomo’s “who are they?”.. I’m beginning to think that a Civil War could come. Could!
    More public servants like Cujo and who knows?

  • Thank you Elaine.
    I did just read your helpful link.
    Distorted by NY Post.
    True.

    I had the Catholic station on last night driving home and they we’re playing a short clip of this remark. They were not playing the full speach..distorted reporting as well. 🙁

  • If liberal elites (the ‘new ‘ aristocracy) have “context”, it’s 24/7/365 abortion, class envy/war, dependency (free lunch), gay marriage, gender, and race baiting. To them, any disagreement is pure evil.

    Sinverguenza Cuomo isn’t going to run out of “other people’s money.” First, he’s going to run out of the other people.

  • Anti-Right to Life, anti 2nd Amendment, anti natural marriage.

  • Suz, you make an essential point with “Red states out there, if you wish to keep your freedoms, keep your cities in check.” A glance at the red and blue areas on election maps reveals how much our politics is divided on a rural versus urban basis. New York City is the tail that wags the New York State dog. Cuomo is the bark.

  • The democrat deck (playing card analogy) has seven cards: abortion, class war, gender victimology, race baiting and sexual orientation.

    And, never forget, Bull Connor was a member of the Democrat National Committee, and the IRS did to MLK, Jr. what it is doing to hated right-wingers, today.

  • The last time I heard, Gov. Cuomo wasn’t appointed to be the Empire State’s “dictator for life,” and the people there enjoy the right to toss him out of office the next time he runs, or make his term unbearable by voting in a veto proof legislature, to name a few “checks” for starters. Let’s say for the sake of argument, what if he kept on running for reelection for the next twenty or so years and his party kept on making sure the likelihood of any veto-proof legislature was high as Iceland putting a man on the moon? One might want to pick up stakes and leave then, but guess what, Cuomo’s not going to prevent you from moving out of state, nor is he going to slap any state emigration tax for moving elsewhere, etc. You’re just as free then to go as you are now not to vote for him, or better yet, get more people just as ticked as you are … and keep their motivation spirits up for the duration of any drive and campaign to replace him with at least a more pro-life candidate. If pro-abortion supporters can keep their spirits up long enough to bedevil the our side, it’s useless to whine and commisserate over the usual fates of many one-issue pro-life candidates.
    Many voters would probably love to have more children, but how are they going to support them if the so-called “pro-life” candidates keep on with their one-issue fare while doing little or nothing to offer voters more reasons to see how more widely and credibly pro-life their agenda is. These topics can range from the most elemental, but crucial to each individual voter; from the quality of local schools, (including the bricks n’ mortar part), public transportation, law enforcement/fire control, snow removal, to parks and recreation. And of course, if your local hospital is publicly owned, the overall quality of care and life offered for all patients of all ages and backgrounds. How does your community take care of its elderly, poor … you name it, there’s a lot more to saying one is “prolife” than simply keeping tabs on who votes which way on pro-life related legislation or what Cuomo, or any other governor’s position is. They can only govern by the consent of the governed, and even the bosses in the back room know this, and or need reminding now n’ then. That’s the citizens’ job to do: not whine over some lines out of Albany, Boston, Trenton or Augusta.

  • RINGMASTER: Right this way, Doctor.

    DOCTOR: Thank you very much, but where’s Ace? I don’t think she

    RINGMASTER: Oh, she’ll be coming.

    CAPTAIN [OC]: Iniphitus, where the Galvanic Catastrophods are not what they were.

    (The Doctor looks through to where the Captain is drinking tea and talking at a bored Nord while Mags is staring at nothing.)

    CAPTAIN: No, but they’re still worth a look if you’re doing a tour of the southern nebula and have an eon or two to spare. You. Well, well.

    DOCTOR: Captain Cook, I presume. So you had arrived after all.

    CAPTAIN: But of course. Come and join us, Doctor. It’s one big happy family here, eh, Nord?

    NORD: Except when you’re gassing on.

  • Steven, speaking of harping on the same issue, your insistence on turning every thread into a discussion of something not on topic is quite a bore. Bye bye.

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Pro-Abort Catholic Politicians and the Church

Wednesday, September 9, AD 2009

Pro-abort Catholic PolsFather Roger J. Landry concludes here that the strategy of the Church to privately persuade Catholic pro-abort pols of the errors of their ways has been a flat failure.

“Let us take an honest look at the numbers. When we survey the long list of pro-choice Catholic politicians from both parties — Kennedy, Kerry, Giuliani, Schwarzenegger, Daschle, Dodd, Durbin, Leahy, Mikulski, Pelosi, Delahunt, Capuano, Markey, McGovern, Meehan, Granholm, Sebelius, Pataki, Richardson, Cellucci, Cuomo, and Biden to name just a handful — is it possible to say that the strategy has worked with any of them? Over the last three and a half decades, can we point to even one success story?

Another way to assess the results of the education-alone strategy is to measure the direction that pro-choice Catholic politicians have moved over the years. Even if they haven’t experienced a total conversion, have they moved closer toward limiting abortions or toward making abortions easier to access? The facts show that the vast majority of personally opposed, publicly pro-choice Catholic legislators have become far less personally opposed and far more publicly in favor over the duration of the strategy.

In the initial years after Roe versus Wade, publicly pro-choice Catholic legislators generally whispered their support for abortion. They displayed a palpable sense of shame, letting their abortion position out just enough so that it wouldn’t cost them the votes of abortion supporters. That discomfort began to dissipate after Governor Mario Cuomo’s 1984 pro-choice defense at Notre Dame. We’ve now come to a situation when pro-choice Catholic legislators vigorously curry the favor of Planned Parenthood, NARAL Pro-Choice America and Emily’s List;  scores of Catholics in Congress have the chutzpah to co-sponsor the Freedom of Choice Act, which would eliminate almost every abortion restriction ever passed at the federal or state level; and 16 out of 25 Catholic Senators vote against conscience protections to prevent their fellow Catholics in the medical field from being forced to participate in abortions and sterilizations.”

Father Landry ends by suggesting a new approach, perhaps we might call it the “more than hot air” approach:

“Jesus spoke of a different way in the Gospel (Mt 18:15-18). It involves not merely general educational statements that we hope offenders will apply to themselves in conscience, but the type of one-on-one instruction traditionally called fraternal correction. If that fails, and fails repeatedly, Jesus enjoined us to regard the offender as someone who no longer belongs to the community, who is no longer a member in good standing. This may seem harsh, but we should remember that Jesus always seeks nothing but the best for his Church and for individual sinners, even obstinate sinners. Implied in Jesus’ strategy is that education involves not just information, but formation, and that you can’t form disciples without discipline. This is a lesson that, after four decades of the undeniable failure of another approach, we need to consider anew.”

Hattip to my friend the ever vigilant Jay Anderson at Pro Ecclesia,  and please go here to read his comments on Father Landry’s argument.

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17 Responses to Pro-Abort Catholic Politicians and the Church

  • Finally, someone has the courage to state what must be done.

    Thanks
    Paul

  • Yes, I agree with the idea of not considering them part of the community anymore but I think we need to voice that more. We need to let our congregation, the nation and the world know that we do not tolerate abortion support….and that Catholics who support and advocate it are excommunicated. We need to literally stand up and state what our Catechism says:

    “Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense. The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life. “A person who procures a completed abortion incurs excommunication latae sententiae,” “by the very commission of the offense,” and subject to the conditions provided by Canon Law. The Church does not thereby intend to restrict the scope of mercy. Rather, she makes clear the gravity of the crime committed, the irreparable harm done to the innocent who is put to death, as well as to the parents and the whole of society.”

  • Well stated Simon. I was disappointed that Caroline Kennedy was pro-choice, repulsive, it’s incompatible with Catholic beliefs. Isn’t their someone in the Kennedy clan who bolts from this philosophy and ideology? Isn’t it good to know, of course, that Alveda King, Martin Luther King’s niece is pro-life.

    I have never wavered being pro-life though I have considered the question in full when younger, I respect an argument. Now, I consider how central and pivotal of an idea is it for the Church to be pushing.

    It was an interesting editorial in the UK, by a spokesman for the Tories I believe in the Daily Telegraph that grilled Ted Kennedy for voting for the partial birth abortions. England, can’t speak for the total UK because abortion is still illegal in Northern Ireland like the Republic of Ireland, but one would think England is a bit like the USA in this regard. However, many in England find our “partial birth” abortions very evil. Okay, I would find fault with all abortions but I have met others from England who do not accept the late terms abortions that occur in the USA even though they are pro-choice. The Tories by the way in the above articles did not want Ted Kennedy to get Knighthood since basically, he’s had long term ties to supporting the IRA or something of this nature. I apologize for any of this being offtopic.

  • Don:

    Totally agree with your post and the comments of Jay Anderson and the good Father. People forget that there were even limits to Christ’s spirit of charity and inclusiveness such as when he tossed the money changers out of the temple.

    That being said how can one justify actions by other “Catholic” laity and politicians in promoting other activity that runs contrary to Catholic teaching, i.e. torture, pre-emptive war, the death penalty, divorce? How can one be a “Catholic” divorce lawyer? How can one be a “Catholic” judge or prosecutor that encourages or enforces the death penalty? How can one be a “Catholic” public official that allows or attempts to justify torture and pre-emptive war?

  • Like most things in life awakaman you deal with each issue on its own merits. The Church has spoken with one voice on abortion since the time of Christ.

    On the issue of preemptive war on the other hand, well, I assume some of the popes have had interesting discussions on that topic in the next life. For example John Paul II and Urban II on the First Crusade. I would love, and I mean that sincerely, to listen to that discussion.

    On divorce John Paul II seemed at one point not to want Catholic attorneys involved in them, but then in a clarification said that Catholic attorneys could be involved if their aim was to secure a good custody outcome for any minor children involved. That is one area where I personally would like some clarification since, although it makes up a miniscule portion of my practice, like most small town attorneys I am confronted with these cases from time to time.

    In regard to the death penalty we have the problem of Church teaching basically being reversed on that question under John Paul II, with a great deal of confusion now as to when the death penalty is licit and when it is not.

    I have no problem with holding the feet of Catholic pols to the fire on any number of issues, but I believe that Church teaching is the clearest on abortion, it is the issue that involves the greatest death toll each year for the innocent, and for me, as it has been since 1973, abortion will always be the overriding moral issue of our time.

  • Don:

    In regards to the 1st Crusade it is debatable as to whether it truly was pre-emptive war. First, it went beyond its initial objective of defending the Byzantine Empire and the West from the expansion of Islam and became more of a war of aggression with the reconquest of Jerusalem. Secondly, saying the 1st Crusade was fought by those exclusinvely seeking to protect Christainity is like saying the Civil War was fought exclusively over the issue of Slavery – total nonsense. It was extremely interesting that Jerusalem was a major trading center as well as an important city to Christians – just as it was an amazing coincidence that Iraq happened to have a lot of oil as well as a nasty dictator. Finally, even if we regard it as a pre-emptive war to prevent the spread of Islam given the current status of Islam in the middle east (and Europe) I would hardly say that it speaks well for pre-emptive war.

    In regard to the Death penalty did church teaching on the death penalty reverse or did it develop as a result of the growth or evolution of the modern prison system? Your argument reminds me of those offered by the Church of Christ as to why they do not have instrumental music at their services – because the early Christians did not – of course they didn’t have air conditioning or heating either. As prisons have become relatively “escape proof” and we have developed systems of rehabilitation (as I assume you agree that it is our Christian duty to do) the death penalty has become less necessary unless you want to engage in pure retribution. I know, I know . . . the deterance argument . . . but given that countries and states without the death penalty generally have less crime then those with the death penalty this is not a very good argument.

    Finally, given that JPII was rather adament in his denunciation of Catholic lawyers being involved in divorces “Roman Catholic lawyers should refuse to handle divorce cases, Pope John Paul has said.
    He said divorce was ‘spreading like a plague’ through society, and lawyers should refuse to be part of the ‘evil’.”
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1787106.stm

    Yes, one can engage in some self rationalization such as one is doing some good such as getting children into a good custody situation, but isn’t that the type of rationalization used by pro-choice politicians and those who vote for them, i.e. ignoring the great evil you are doing by pointing ut the small amount of good that may result.

  • well, we as catholics are so stupid. If you work, for example for Pepsi, but you don’t like Pepsi, and talk the whole day about the wonders of Coke, and try to sell Coke at every chance you have … what would your boss do? Fire you!!

    Off course, if you were coherent and a normal and rational person, you would leave Pepsi and move to Coke asap.

    This is how ratio works, this how the world is, this is how everybody in this planet feels. And what does the hierarchy do, not only in the States but anywhere else, without some honorable exceptions? They are SCARED, because the sheeps will leave the flock.. so WHAT?

    It is better to be fewer but real,rather than have many who disturb, who don’t leave us do the work of our Heavenly Father!

  • I believe the Catechism [2383] expresses well the Church’s position. Separation [divorce] is not immoral. Indeed it may be for the benefit of both parties.

    It is remarriage which is wrong.

  • Exactly, Gabriel. No off the cuff statement, even by a pope, even by a saint, can change that.

  • TomSVDP,
    The late Eunice Kennedy Shriver was notable for her pro-life advocacy within the Democratic party and her activism outside it. Her passing several weeks ago was noted on this blog and elsewhere, though there was little mention of her pro-life associations outside pro-life sources.

  • Awakaman in regard to divorce cases and Catholic lawyers this is where the ambiguity enters in:

    “Lawyers, as independent professionals, should always decline the use of their profession for an end that is contrary to justice, as is divorce. They can only cooperate in this kind of activity when, in the intention of the client, it is not directed to the break-up of the marriage, but to the securing of other legitimate effects that can only be obtained through such a judicial process in the established legal order (cf. Catechism of the Catholic Church, n. 2383). In this way, with their work of assisting and reconciling persons who are going through a marital crises, lawyers truly serve the rights of the person and avoid becoming mere technicians at the service of any interest whatever.”

    http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/pope0264xh.htm

    In this area I wouldn’t mind at all if the Pope told me that I could never take such a case again as it would give me an excellent reason not to do so when clients press me for my services in these types of matters. These cases are time consuming, emotionally draining, and, as I noted in my earlier comment a miniscule portion of my practice, and the only reason I get involved with them now is when a client convinces me that the kids would be better off with them, or they are being denied visitation, or they want an increase in child support, or they wish to attempt to change custody because the kids are begging to live with the client, etc. I would cheer a papal ban as giving me a good conscience deafness to their pleas, but I do not think the Pope has done that yet.

    More on your other points in a day or so when I am no longer shackled to my desk in my law office.

  • But how can civil divorce really be “contrary to justice” in cases where an innocent spouse is merely trying to remove herself or himself and any children from a situation that gravely endangers their physical, mental, or spiritual health or safety?

    I don’t think even JPII would have argued that it was “evil” for a woman to divorce a husband who was beating her or molesting their children, or a man to divorce a wife who was shooting up drugs and prostituting herself to get the money for them, or had taken up witchcraft or Satan worship, etc.

  • On the other hand, if it’s just a case of a man or woman having fallen in “love” with someone else and wanting to divorce their spouse to marry their partner in adultery, that’s another story, and a case in which I would think no observant Catholic lawyer would want to get involved.

  • You can also add into the complexity mix Elaine that clients are often less than forthcoming in this area of the law, and will frequently tell their attorney all about the misdeeds, real or imagined, of their spouse while not mentioning their own. Not infrequently this is being done in a high state of emotion, especially when the custody of children is at stake, and quick decisions often have to be made by the attorney. In hotly contested custody cases sex abuse allegations regarding the kids not infrequently enter into the case, and often the attorney has no way of knowing if the allegations are true. This is a difficult area of the law for an attorney concerned about following a moral path, and, unfortunately, not difficult at all for an attorney completely unconcerned with the morality of what is going on.

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  • Elaine,

    I don’t think even JPII would have argued that it was “evil” for a woman to divorce a husband who was beating her or molesting their children, or a man to divorce a wife who was shooting up drugs and prostituting herself to get the money for them, or had taken up witchcraft or Satan worship, etc.

    divorce is still an “evil”, but it is the guilty party who is culpable. In the same sense, war is an “evil”, and the unjust aggressor is culpable.

  • And what of Catholic priests and bishops who encourage divorces when they know that one of the parties is opposed to the divorce and they, the Catholic priests and bishops, flatly refuse to listen to them as they plead for action to support their marriage? What when this goes on for twenty years and the Holy see has completely ignored the same please?

    Some of us have seen this and have chosen to leave the Catholic Church over this. Why is there no support among “rank and file” Catholics for the plight of abandoned spouses who have to defend their marriage against both civil courts and marriage tribunals? And why, when one has defended one’s marriage before the highest courts in the Catholic Church, and watched those courts uphold that marriage, is their no action on the part of priests, bishops and the Roman Curia to canonically hold to account a spouse who has abandoned, wrongly, a faithful spouse, when the evidence is clear and in the possession of the Catholic Church(and has been for twenty years) that the marriage was usurped with the full cooperation of priests(to this day) and bishops(to this day)with mostly complete disregard for the valid, sacramental marriage?

    I think the politicians should receive a bye on this divorce/annulment issue while the Catholic Church tends to the clergy whose actions are far more harmful in this regard. Only after the Catholic Church has tended to its own, in house, facilitators of adultery and all the crimes that unjust divorce entails should it take the time to attempt to call to order catholic politicians. the house should be in order before that house attempts to call others to order.

    Just my two cents.