CNN Joins The Hit Piece Parade Against Pope Benedict XVI and The Catholic Church

Sunday, September 26, AD 2010

It would appear that those in the mainstream media who want to do hit pieces on Pope Benedict XVI need to take a number. The latest to engage in Yellow Journalism is CNN. The “network of record” dispatched Gary Tuchman to do the dirty work. One might recall that it was none other than Tuchman who remarked how distressing it was travelling in the heartland during the 2008 Election campaign. He complained that some who recognized him told him that their Middle American views and ideas were repeatedly mocked by the mainstream media, all the while those of the liberal establishment were hailed. Tuchman’s words were quite revealing when it comes to this story.

CNN has been advertising their hit piece on Pope Benedict XVI as if he was already guilty of some sort of cover up, even though during the Abuse Scandal it was none other than the New York Times who praised then Cardinal Ratzinger for tackling the tough problems. What tough problems did he tackle? The most notable example being Father founder of the Legionaries of Christ. Father Marcial Maciel was one of the few prominent conservatives caught up in the Abuse Scandal, most of the abusers were Church liberals who wanted to change the Church. Cardinal Ratzinger took on Father Maciel at the height of his power and popularity. One might recall that Father Maciel was quite close to Pope John Paul II. So from this example we can see that Cardinal Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict XVI) showed no favorites and pulled no punches. The Legionaries of Christ were shaken to the core and as pontiff, Pope Benedict XVI removed their leadership and installed his own, hardly the work of someone who was timid.

The CNN piece was perhaps even more despicable than the New York Times hit piece, because in the interim much of the modus operandi of the Old Gray Lady was exposed. Still CNN used the same material and claimed that they had something new. There is nothing new here. The crux of their argument comes from material provided by Jeffrey Anderson the attorney who has made millions off the scandal. Anderson says he is one a mision to “reform the Church.” What kind of reform would that be? Some Catholic dioceses have been forced into bankruptcy, which means the poor whom they dioceses assisted through their social programs are left in the cold. For all his concern of “reform”  Anderson hasn’t provided a penny to these particular poor.

Continue reading...

18 Responses to CNN Joins The Hit Piece Parade Against Pope Benedict XVI and The Catholic Church

  • This is a message for Dave Hartline:
    I was in Woodlawn in Chicago during the early years of
    The Woodlawn Organization when it was taken over by the
    Alinsky operatives, including, Fr. Egan, Nick Von
    Hoffman,et.al. I was one of two clergy who opted out
    of the movement for moral and ethical reasons. I read
    your article with comments on Alinsky and the”Radical”
    modus operandi in Fr. Dick Kim’s blog last week. You
    have a far different perspective than the Chicago Diocese at that time. Interesting.

  • Thank you for your post. I do believe there were many people like Alinsky who had great influence on those in the pre Vatican II Church. It was reported that Pope Pius XII wanted to convene the Conference but became too ill to do so. In some US Archdiocese, as well as a few in France and Belgium, movements arose that today one would view as being heretical or schismatic. I do recall the Catholic author Dave Armstrong (who was brought into the Church by Father Hardon SJ) saying that Father Hardon would often say, “The Revolution began…” Dave Armstrong couldn’t remember the precise date but it was sometime in the 1930s or 1940s.

    Anyway, what I am getting at it is before the modern communications era there were folks like Alinksy who claimed to be in line with what the Church was teaching (even though Alinsky was an Agnostic.) In reference to those who say that Alinsky’s book, “Rules for Radicals,” which was dedicated to Lucifer among others was really sort of tongue and cheek. One generally doesn’t dedicate books to the leader of the dark side as some sort of joke. I find that dedication intersting because it happened in 1971, the twilight of his life. Why didin’t he dedicate his previous books to Lucifer? The reason I feel this happened is because it would have caused a stir. Perhaps in the twilight of his life, Alinsky was being more open about his agenda.

    The first time I had heard of Alinsky occurred in my freshman year of college when some radical graduate students were quoting him like most fervent believers would quote the Gospel. In the turmoil that was the Church in the 1970s, I don’t think many people paid much heed to the role of these radicals until recently. However, I dare say that the likes of Father McBrien were quite familiar with the lofty aspirations of Alinksy and those of a similar mindset. This doesn’t even touch on those in the media who were influenced by Alinsky, and who today run those organizations. Does anyone think that the hit pieces on Pope Benedict in particular and the Church in general would have been possible had not these poeple been calling the shots?

    Fortunately as I have said before the tide is turning. I can’t help but refer back to a priest I know who was ordained some five years ago. There was quite a stir when he made no bones about his orthodox or conservative views. I spoke with him recently and he laughed saying, “those in the seminary now make me look like a milquetoast moderate.” Now that is what really drives the left up a wall, they thought the Election of 2008 would end any talk of conservatism prevailing in any sector of society. With the coming election, it appears that it is liberalism whose back is against the wall.

  • For my taste, Mr. Hartline, you seem too optimistic.

    Also, not just from you but from others I keep hearing of how good “new” seminarians are but I have not seen much to bouy my spirits among those have seen.

    Benedict is too little too late. The trials are upon us.

  • Karl with all due respect, it isn’t about your taste or mine, it is about facts. The fact is the Church was ruderless in the 1970s, Pope Paul VI said as much when uttered his famous words, “The Smoke of Satan had entered the Church.” However, Pope John Paul II’s Springtime of the Evangelization is here. We didn’t get into the mess we are in overnight, and we won’t get out of it overnight either. However, with Pope Benedict at the helm (perhaps fulfilling St John Bosco’s vision of the Twin Pillars) we will make great strides. The trials have been upon us many times before; the Islamic Invasions, the Protestant Reformation, the French Revolution, the 1960s Cultural Revolution, and yet here we are still Fighting the Good Fight!

  • I see the same facts but interpret them differently. It is not about taste though, you are spot on. The shoes we walk in influences our take. I remember into the early sixties. I have lived throughout this tempest. I believe we have seen, nothing yet.

  • In light of the customary, infernally low level of intellectual honesty in the Commie News Net pile-on piece of journalistic excrement, here’s my proposed response:

    Keep the Faith.

  • Karl, I certainly agree with you on your concluding point. However, I think we are in much better shape that we were 35 years ago. Pope John Paul II and now Pope Benedict XVI, through their leadership and those seminarians, women religious and laity whom they influence, are at least beginning to waft out the Smoke of Satan that had entered the Church.

    T Shaw, the Haku War Dance. I wonder if the Knights Templar did something similar before battle? May God Keep Us All Safe from enemies within and without!

  • “All one has to do is read the writings of those who started the French Revolution (which is often widely praised and celebrated in the West)…”

    During the 1780’s, many who made up the Third Estate, particulary the bourgeoisie (merchants, bankers, lawyers, etc), were fed up with the inequities of the ruling class.

    The First Estate (Clergy) and the Second Estate (Nobility) were a small minority of privileged men who made up the Aristocracy. As a result of the blurred lines between the two classes,(holding high positions under the Church’s provision, for example) the Aristocratic ruling class was exempt from almost all taxes. Many of the bourgeoisie were also exempt, which left the burden of paying for wars, affairs of state, etc. on the backs of the peasantry.

    The causes of the French Revolution were many and historians still argue over them but there are aspects of the Enlightenment that conservatives, particularly American conservatives, should appreciate and identify with.

    Those who advocated for change at the time, pushed for positions in government, the Church and the military to be open to men of talent and merit. They fought for a constitution and a Parliament that would limit the king’s power. Religious toleration and fair trials were also part of their agenda.

    Now, as we all know, the French Revolution got totally out of hand but there are reasons for those of us in the West to identify with the philosophes of the 18th century.

  • DP

    It was Louis the XVI who called the Estates General. The likes of Robespierre, Danton et al were not interested in what you suggest above they wanted real power and to remake society as they saw fit. They wanted to import their revolution to all of Europe.

    You know sort of like Lenin and Stalin.

  • Afghani Stan, excellent point. I would also ask that our friend DP consider that some of the ideas that Enlightenment is given credit for dates back to the Magna Carta. In addition, there were already primitive forms of government in some Swiss Cantons (Catholic cantons at that) which espoused early democratic ideals. Sadly, Ulrich Zwingli tried to put a stop to that, which in some ways was the start of the Left’s War on Rural Inhabitants.

  • If memory serves (John Robinson, Dungeons, Fire and Sword), the Templars entered battle assuring each other that, “Whether we live or whether we die, we are The Lord’s.”

  • Stan and Dave,

    Yes, Louis XVI did convene the Estates General at the last minute but only after a hiatus of 170+ yrs and to no avail.

    Robespierre was, of course, an extreme leftist and a tyrant as well. But there are other Enlightenment notables such as Locke (a champion of America’s Founding Fathers), Newton and Montesquieu who contributed a great deal with regard to the expansion of thought and science in secular society.

    In fact, Pope Benedict XIV respected Montesquieu and the advances of the Enlightenment (especially tolerance) even though many of his bishops didn’t share his sensibilities at the time.

    In any case, some of the ideas and ideals of the philosophes should be celebrated by both the West and the Church.

  • Pingback: E. J. Dionne & Maureen Dowd Are Playing With A Dangerous Fire « The American Catholic
  • Pingback: AP’s Article On The Catholic Blogosphere & NPR’s Firing Of Juan Williams Are Par For The Course « The American Catholic
  • Pingback: AP’s Article On The Catholic Blogosphere & NPR’s Firing Of Juan Williams Are Par For The Course: The American Catholic « Deacon John's Space
  • Pingback: Midterm Election Results Show The Tide Continues To Turn Toward Catholic Orthodoxy « The American Catholic
  • Pingback: Midterm Election Results Show The Tide Continues To Turn Toward Catholic Orthodoxy : The American Catholic « Deacon John's Space
  • Pingback: In An Unprecedented Move, Left Leaning Bishop Kicanas, Vice President Of US Bishop’s Conference Passed Over For Right Leaning Archbishop Dolan | The American Catholic

The Jesus The Professional Left Chose To Ignore

Monday, September 13, AD 2010

Jesus Christ has always been an enigma to those on the left. Some liberal idealists embraced Him; many others on the radical left did not. Some on the radical left actually attacked Jesus by either saying He didn’t exist (a rather strange way of dealing with someone) or claiming he was demented. However, after World War II a rather cunning adaptation of Jesus was embraced by the Professional Left.  The solution thought up by the Professional Left was as simple as it was devious; simply say Jesus was one of them.

Continue reading...

17 Responses to The Jesus The Professional Left Chose To Ignore

If Liberals Lose Big In This Fall's Election, The Professional Left Will Mock The Religious Faithful

Wednesday, August 18, AD 2010

This fall all of the hopes and dreams of those who have detested Middle American values stands in the balance. Those values are best exemplified in religious beliefs shared by many faith traditions. However, Catholics, Evangelicals, Orthodox Christians and Orthodox Jews are those to which the angry Professional Left, to use Robert Gibbs (President Obama’s Press Secretary’s) term, will most turn their anger.  Some may say this seems a little far-fetched, after all aren’t some of those people from the “Professional Left” religious themselves? Yes, some on the “Professional Left” are religious, but they often go to great pains to say they are not affiliated with any faith tradition. They often classify themselves as “spiritual.”

During the 2008 Presidential Campaign, then Senator Obama made by his own admission his biggest gaffe. The future President, speaking in  San Francisco, called those middle Americans of western Pennsylvania, “bitter clingers.” In his own words, the future President described western Pennsylvania residents as hard working salt of the earth folks who clung to “their guns and religion,” presumably because they weren’t enlightened enough to understand the modern world.

Continue reading...

8 Responses to If Liberals Lose Big In This Fall's Election, The Professional Left Will Mock The Religious Faithful

  • “Our Lady of Mount Carmel”

    The True Story of “Our Lady of Mount Carmel” Occurred in Puerto Rico between 1899 and 1909, and has been narrated by eyewitnesses.

    We can see The Terrible Situation of Poverty in Latin America at this time; The Initial Disbelief of the Bishop; The Miracle Flowering of Faith… go through the Miracle Mercy of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

    The fulfillment of 73 of over 76 of their Prophecies, are consistent with Her Messages in La Salette; Lourdes, Fatima and Garabandal.

    “Our Lady of Mount Carmel” Prophesied for the “End of Time”, and your Message can be Announced by a Film Made by You.

    Thanks,
    Ricardo Fernández – Franciscan Mary

  • Please do not blame only the left, as your italicized section above strongly implies, for religion in tatters, especially the Catholic Church. The so called, good Catholic conservatives have their share too.

    I consider myself a conservative, for whatever that may matter and yes, the left is a particularly heinous lot, but they are not alone.

    Thank you.

  • Karl, the italicised words to which you refer link to an article which I wrote. Perhaps the prudent thing to do would be to read that article before you comment. Since you went out of your way to stick up for the left, perhaps you are an altruistic poster who defends conservatives from attacks on the many liberal blogs. That is only known to you, however, in retrospect, I would suggest you read the article to which you referred before you claim that I only indict the left. I would also suggest you read the italicised section referring to the Conservative Intelligentsia. I take them to task as well. Take care!

  • Is the “professional left” composed of those who oppose a Cross in the Mojave Desert? Or, those who stopped rebuilding of the Orthodox Church at Ground Zero? Or, those oppose “In God We Trust” on the money? Or, who oppose “Under God” in the pledge of Allegiance? Or, oppose private enterprise? Or, oppose equal opportunity? Or, oppose the free market? Or, oppose the right to life? Or, those who hate America? Or, . . .

    We need to pray for said professional left. That they come to a better mind/repent, confess, do penance, amend their lives, and through good works glorify Almighty God.

  • T Shaw, we certainly do need to pray for the Professional Left. I was immediately drawn to the term because if Robert Gibbs uses it and feels the White House’s policies aren’t liberal enough for some in the mainstream media (my guess is he was talking about the talking heads at MSNBC) than heaven help us all.

  • We’ll just have to keep our trust in God that he will draw good from evil, even if that means allowing for the far left to accede to power as a way of awakening Americans to the reality of the “Party of Death.”

  • Well okay, they will snicker and mock, oh my, not that!

    If anyone wants or has even a bit of expectation of being admired by the elite in this time that we live in, for fighting for the things we believe in, had better expect some kind of reaction. I will gladly take all the mocking, snickering etcetera, rather than alternatives that can be expected, when and if the left becomes stronger in the future. The fact that they are still making fun of us is better than then arrest and trial for holding illegal and irrational beliefs that we may come to expect.

    Recent history of Russia and Eastern Europe shows clearly the fate of traditional believers. There are lessons like this all over the planet.

    Secularism is one thing, arrests in the night is another thing all together. These things are not impossible here, however unlikely. It is uncanny how close the beliefs and values of our progressives are to those of that the left widely held, one hundred years ago in another part of our civilization.

  • This is a good article, thanks. However, just to pick on the title a bit, the Pro Left will bust our nuts whether they win or lose.

Rank and File Conservatives & The Conservative Intelligentsia United In Outrage Over Mosque Near Ground Zero, Not So With Same-Sex Marriage

Sunday, August 15, AD 2010

The proposed mosque set to be built near Ground Zero, site of the September 11, 2001 attacks has brought a sweeping condemnation from both rank and file conservatives and the Conservative Intelligentsia. Now that President Barack Obama has weighed in the matter, seemingly supporting the effort, one can only imagine how this will be used in the fall elections. However, a rift has appeared to have been opened concerning the views of the rank and file conservatives and the Conservative Intelligentsia following the ruling of Judge Vaughn Walker over same-sex marriage. Many of the conservative intelligentsia, along with the establishment wing of the Republican Party has either been silent or voiced the view that the wished the whole gay marriage issue would simply go away. This has led to bewilderment from some conservative voices.

The best Catholic tie in with the efforts to build a mosque on Ground Zero came from the famed conservative columnist Charles Krauthammer, who is Jewish. In his opposition to the mosque being built near Ground Zero, he correctly pointed out that Pope John Paul II ordered Carmelite nuns, who were living right next to Auschwitz, to move closer to a nearby town, since the site had become a rallying point for Jewish identity. Krauthammer correctly pointed out that Christians had been murdered there too and the nuns were doing the heroic deed of praying for the souls of those who were viciously murdered. However, Krauthammer pointed out that the late Polish pontiff felt that it created the wrong perception.

Continue reading...

27 Responses to Rank and File Conservatives & The Conservative Intelligentsia United In Outrage Over Mosque Near Ground Zero, Not So With Same-Sex Marriage

  • Which members of the conservative intelligentsia who aren’t also rank and file Republicans, have expressed opposition to the mosque?

  • There are plenty of natural law and non-religious arguments against homosexuality. It is not a natural co-equal with heterosexuality. Not by any stretch of the imagination. Men and woman are complementary, not only physically, but emotionally and psychologically.

    Homosexuals have significantly higher levels of: mental health problems, psychological disorders such as suicide and depression, sexual addiction and coercion, promiscuity, STDs, violence, and addictions of all kinds including alcoholism and drug abuse.

    Almost every society, primitive and complex, has had laws and taboos against homosexuality. This isn’t just a Christian thing. There will always be a visceral reaction to homosexuality because it goes to the very heart of the survival of our species.

    Where homosexuality occurs in the animal world, it is primarily a temporary condition, and when the opportunity presents itself, animals will copulate heterosexually.

    Two-parent heterosexual families, despite the exceptions, are proven over history, across cultures, as the better way for healthy child development. Healthy children produce healthy societies.

    It’s time, in my opinion, for a Constitutional amendment that establishes once and for all that marriage is between one man and one woman. Then we can put this issue to bed.

  • I was rather hoping you would offer some analysis as to WHY so many self-described conservatives are backing away from the defense of traditional marriage. I suppose it is because Americans of all stripes have internalized the notion that it is “mean” to express “intolerance” toward homosexuality. Genuine intolerance, however, including intolerance toward Catholics, remains quite socially acceptable.

  • discarding Western Civilization’s definition of marriage (2,000+ years) is simply a non starter.

    As pointed out above, it’s not just Western Civ’s definition, it has been humanity’s definition since recorded history, and likely pre-dates that as well. try more like 5,000+ years.

  • From what I can tell, those members of the conservative “intelligencia” who aren’t members of Fox & Friends or proprieters of talk radio shows have mostly remained in favor of religious freedom — as they should.

  • Try on this one, Bunky:

    “Rank and file liberal catholics and the liberal catholic intelligentsia united in outrage over tax cuts for the rich, not so with abortion.”

  • I was rather hoping you would offer some analysis as to WHY so many self-described conservatives are backing away from the defense of traditional marriage.

    I suspect you usually could not do this without making evaluations of their personal disposition and conduct, as in noting that some folk appear other-directed by default (Ross Douthat, Rod Dreher) or have been married four times (Theodore Olson), or make use of the self-description ‘conservative’ to obfuscate (Conor Friedersdorf).

    Someone on the payroll of The American Conservative or the Rockford Institute can likely also supply a dismissive commentary to the effect that those resisting this burlesque have neglected some deeper cultural deficiency which these resisters are too shallow to detect and about which we can do nothing in any case.

  • “Rank and file liberal catholics and the liberal catholic intelligentsia united in outrage over tax cuts for the rich, not so with abortion.”

    Fits alright.

  • Homosexuals have significantly higher levels of: mental health problems, psychological disorders such as suicide and depression, sexual addiction and coercion, promiscuity, STDs, violence, and addictions of all kinds including alcoholism and drug abuse.

    Same can be said of blacks. I don’t find that a convincing argument. If you’re going to oppose gay marriage on secular grounds, I think you have to rest on the procreation argument.

  • I’d postulate that people don’t feel as threatened by gay marriage as they are by Islam. Homosexuals never killed 3000 people in my backyard.

  • Tide turning towards Catholicism? Just today I read a credible report saying that in the last 10+ Catholic marriages have decreased. One point of view is that the religion is too strict and another is that it is not needed with modern thinking. I just had a conversation with a liberal who said life is a pendulum goes from one extreme to the other finding it’s way in the middle. I do not believe this that societies do go by the wayside, that they undo themselves, with no virtue to survive pop trends.

  • I don’t find that a convincing argument. If you’re going to oppose gay marriage on secular grounds, I think you have to rest on the procreation argument.

    Why don’t you try making the case FOR it? Start with an explanation of why male friendships which do not incorporate sodomy as part of their daily practice should received less recognition than those which do.

  • Art Deco, I don’t know why you want me to make the case for it but you asked so I’ll try.

    The closer the relationship, the greater the rights and responsibilities between them are. If we want to legally protect expectation interests, we will want to recognize intimately committed couples in ways that we don’t recognize mere friendships. We may also want to legally recognize friendships but that’s not at issue here.

  • RR,

    We have an association that is sterile and undertaken in a social matrix where sexual activity is treated as fun-n-games. Why should this be honored? Why is it deemed ‘closer’ than the fraternity that bound my father to the man who was his dearest friend for 48 of his 51 years? What are ‘expectation interests’? Why do you want to protect them?

    My question was rhetorical. The gay lobby wants this as a gesture of deference. The only reason to give it to them is that they will be put out by refusal. Lots of people do not get their way, and public policy is enough of a zero sum game that that is inevitable. For some, it is incorporated into their amour-propre to regard some clamoring constituencies as composed of those who are So Very Special. Then there’s the rest of thus, who are not so well represented in the appellate judiciary.

  • AD,

    We have an association that is sterile and undertaken in a social matrix where sexual activity is treated as fun-n-games. Why should this be honored?

    It shouldn’t.

    Why is it deemed ‘closer’ than the fraternity that bound my father to the man who was his dearest friend for 48 of his 51 years? What are ‘expectation interests’? Why do you want to protect them?

    I assume your father and his friend didn’t rely on each other for financial support. When people form an association with the mutual expectation that they take on certain duties, it would be unjust to allow one party to escape their duties at the expense of the other(s). It’s why we enforce contracts. If your father and his friend did have such an arrangement, it should be enforced.

  • I’d postulate that people don’t feel as threatened by gay marriage as they are by Islam. Homosexuals never killed 3000 people in my backyard.

    Neither have illegal immigrants, but that hasn’t stopped an upsurge in hostility and resentment towards them as a group.

  • Pope John Paul II ordered Carmelite nuns, who were living right next to Auschwitz, to move closer to a nearby town, since the site had become a rallying point for Jewish identity. Krauthammer correctly pointed out that Christians had been murdered there too and the nuns were doing the heroic deed of praying for the souls of those who were viciously murdered. However, Krauthammer pointed out that the late Polish pontiff felt that it created the wrong perception.

    Nobody would object if those wanting to building the mosque volunteered to build it elsewhere. But who is the more honorable person? The Jew who welcomed the Carmelites or the Jew who told them to go somewhere else?

  • Neither have illegal immigrants, but that hasn’t stopped an upsurge in hostility and resentment towards them as a group.

    They ignored the law and act to frustrate lawfully constituted immigration policy. Can we have a wee bit o’ antagonism, pretty please?

  • I assume your father and his friend didn’t rely on each other for financial support.

    I cannot say if they borrowed money from each other or not. Ordinarily, working aged men are expected to be self-supporting if not disabled.

    When people form an association with the mutual expectation that they take on certain duties,

    Human relations are not commercial transactions and the law does not ordinarily enforce amorphous and unwritten ‘expectations’ that someone else is going to pay your rent.

    Right now, RR, I am pricing insurance policies. I was offered (unbidden) discount rates by the agent if I was in some sort of ‘committed relationship’ with some other dude. Uh, no, nothing like that Chez Deco, ever. I inquired about purchases for my sister. No discount offers there.

    Maybe sis and I can manufacture an ‘expectations interest’ and get you and Judge Walker to work on our problem.

  • And if it is written?

    Are you opposed to insurance discounts for spouses or for discounts for siblings?

  • Pingback: If Liberals Lose Big In This Fall’s Election, The Professiona Left Will Mock The Religious Faithful « The American Catholic
  • This article has a lot of interesting points. However, it rambles all over the place. The essay would have been easier to understand if it was broken up into three mini essays.

    There’s no intrinsic connection between the Cordoba Mosque, homosexuality, and same-sex marriage. Why lament that some conservatives have an opinion on one topic but not the other? You might (rightfully) argue that the establishment of a mosque near Ground Zero does not carry even a tenth of the socio-moral import of same sex marriage. But the logical independence of the two questions renders party lockstep on the two issues irrelevant. Let the GOP/right/conservative rank and file make up their own minds about the relationship between these two variables.

    Gratuitous aside: I know that you and other faithful/orthodox Catholic bloggers must boost reparative therapy. To not do so would negatively impact one’s orthodox Catholic street cred. Still, one can be a faithful Catholic, live morally, and not support COURAGE. Indeed, I found the meetings emotionally intrusive and psychologically manipulative. I wish that the Catholic orthodox/conservative/right would think twice before lavishing praise on an organization and therapeutic model that at the very least has emotionally troubled some participants. Sing your praises only after attending a meeting or two.

  • Sorta Catholic, the beauty of writing an article for a blog or newspaper column is that you have the freedom to write it as you see fit. Perhaps, some would like shorter columns, while others may favor longer columns, the choice is up to the writer.

    As for Courage, the group’s spiritual mentor is Father Benedict Groeschel, his credentials are certainly good enough for me. Perhaps, the meeting you attended was not run properly. I can only tell you that the group is trying to impart the Church’s teachings in a world that has become enamored with self, and not with faith.

    As for orthodox-minded street cred, we aren’t trying to impress anyone only help spread the message of Christ through His Church. We have divergent opinions on a variety of topics, but yet we fall under the same umbrella of supporting the Church’s teachings. The longer you submit to the will of God, the more you realize the wisdom of the 2,000 year old Catholic Church. It really does make you a more content indiviudal, free from the whims of the modern world. Take care!

  • It is a shame that the likes of Beck, Coulter and Limbaugh would let their libertarian views get the best of them when it comes to SSM. Divorcing that from their preaching for conservative values is not the charitable thing to do when the eternal salvation of those who engage in homosexual acts is at stake. Frankly, by doing so, they are committing the grievous sin of omission. A priest in Texas recently made that point clear when he said that Catholics have a moral duty to oppose abortion and SSM.

  • By the way, one of my favorite journalists, WorldNetDaily’s founder Joseph Farah, hits the nail on the head of this issue in offering his take on why some conservatives are “capitulating” to the gay agenda pushers: http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=192761

  • Hi Dave,

    A person that bases his or her judgement of an organization on the perceived reputation of a founder/leader/mentor in that organization commits the logical fallacy of “appeal to authority”. Now, Fr. Groschel is an upstanding authority. I respect him as a religious leader even if I do not agree with many of his points. Even so, the absolute metric for any organization is its ideology/methodology. Perhaps you’ve provided a rigorous defense of reparative therapy elsewhere on your website. If so, point me there. Otherwise, an appeal to authority without prior analysis of an institution’s ideology or methodology is rather insubstantial.

    Appeals to authority or subjective statements such as “X is trying to impart the Church’s teachings […]” sometimes hide insufficient research. Also, “orthodoxy” (i.e. strict adherence to a religion’s dogma/doctrine) does not guarantee the success or failure of a particular therapy.

  • Hi SortaCatholic, I hope your day is going well. I must say that I find these sorts of exchanges very interesting. I don’t believe my “Appeal to Authority,” is some sort of man made or earthly authority. You see I have worked for the Church in a number of capacities. I have seen the good, bad and the ugly. There is some great people who work for the Church and some really inept ones. I have always felt with all of these inept folks, the Church would have to be who she says she is to have survived 2,000 years!

    Perhaps someone at Courage might come across this and answer some of your questions. I do know that God does help us and prayer does work, but rarely in the sort of miraculous way in which we would like it to happen. God sorts and sifts us. We all have our own sets of problems, blessings, gifts, talents and struggles. I have always found Christ’s words of seek and you shall find, knock and you will be heard to be very true (Matthew 7:7-11.) In addition, I have always found this Scripture reading from Hebrews about God showing us the way through trial and struggle very revealing in my own life (Hebrews 12:5-12.) Take care!

WJBA? In 2010 Would Jesus (Along With His Apostles & Saints) Be Arrested For Hate Speech?

Wednesday, August 4, AD 2010

A few short years ago the mere suggestion that the Son of God, His Apostles and Saints would face arrest for hate speech would have seemed absolutely ludicrous. However, events have spiraled out of control across the western world. In his opinion that strikes down California’s recently voter approved marriage law, Judge Vaughn Walker wrote that those who speak in the name of religion to put across their views that same sex marriage is wrong are “harmful to gays and lesbians.”

Across Europe and Canada, faithful Christians speaking out for traditional marriage face the threat of being hauled off to court for citing the teachings of the Catholic Church and various Evangelical Churches. Where will this all end? Some see a great persecution coming against the Christian faithful. Though possible, one need remember that the Christian faith always grew when persecuted.

The Catholic Church has long taught that some individuals have an inclination toward same sex attraction; they are to be loved as all people are to be loved. The Church teaches that these feelings are not to be acted upon. The Church goes on to teach that all individuals are given a cross to carry in this world and for those who are same sex attracted; this is their cross. An organization exists for those who are same sex attracted called COURAGE. It has many chapters and members.

Recently a profile was done in The New York Times on same sex attracted Eve Tushnet, the Ivy League educated Catholic daughter of Harvard Law professors. She has chronicled her growth in Catholicism and the logic of the Church’s teachings on sexuality. For years the Catholic Church took some heat from some quarters of Christianity for not stating that anyone who is same sex attracted would be going to hell. The Church now is facing a maelstrom of vitriol from those who claim the Church hates homosexuals.

For the Church to change her teachings would be to deny not only what Christ said (Matthew 11:20-24,) but his Apostles, not to mention Saint Paul’s lengthy discourse on the subject (Romans 1:26-28, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10.)  In addition to the Apostles and saints, there is a rich history of saints writing on the subject, particularly the Early Church Fathers like Saint Augustine, St Justin Martyr, St. Basil and St John Chrysostom as well as Church intellectuals like St Thomas Aquinas, Saint Albert the Great (the greatest scientist of his time,) along with mystics like St Catherine of Sienna to name but a few. To say that the greatest minds of their respective eras were all wrong is simply breathtaking.

Many who disagree with the Church tend to forget that homosexuality was much more common and approved of by the Roman government in the early Christian era than it is even in 2010. Many in the upper echelons of Greek and Roman culture experimented with all sorts of sexual practices. It would have been far easier for Jesus, the apostles, saints and popes to approve of this conduct than it would to disapprove of it. Christianity might have grown at a faster pace. However, there was a reason for this swimming against the tide, and the faithful accepted it.

Continue reading...

4 Responses to WJBA? In 2010 Would Jesus (Along With His Apostles & Saints) Be Arrested For Hate Speech?

  • Great column as usual, Dave. It just blows my mind that our nation is no longer a republic of, for and by the people but an elite and arrogant oligarchy that is unleashing one perverted social experiment after another on us.

    The far left have the nerve to needle the conservatives for wanting to have less government yet have government restrict marriage. Quite the contrary, we want to be able to decide how our society should function, not have the government do so.

    It’s a shame that the voters in my state of California were robbed once again, but we can still hope for the Supreme Court to save the day. In the meantime, this should serve as a wakeup call for the voters, especially those in the 45 states who have kept marriage to one man and one woman, to vote the radicals out in the fall and make sure the Democrats never control government again as long as the militant secularists who are ruining this nation continue to call the shots for the party.

  • This is almost a grand slam!

    This is government hate speech against, and injurious to, Christians, Jews and Muslims.

    Oh, that’s okay!?

    Never mind.

    Thanks for voting for them dems.

  • Prepare for the worst. There is little doubt that in the near future Christians will be arrested and imprisoned by the American Socialist State if they continue to preach the gospel and traditional morality. The American politicians have created their long desired Atheistic State which will have no tolerance for believers. Prepare for the dark days of persecution but the good news is that it will separate the wheat from the shaff and the sheep from the goats.

  • But Jesus and the Apostles were arrested and even put to death for their speech.

    When DeGaulle was reproached for not taking more care against assassination, he replied: “It comes with the job”.

Margaritaville Christianity; God's Way Or Our Way?

Wednesday, July 28, AD 2010

As Europe emerged from the Dark Ages, a growing populace happy for good news and grateful for these positive turn of events in their lives openly and without apology made the Catholic faith the center of their lives. They believed in the Word of God, even if they couldn’t read or write. They hung on to every word of those who could read. Even during the workday, if at all possible those working in the fields would briefly slip into town to see the priest raise the Host during the Consecration at Mass. Though their lives were full of toil and often misery (they weren’t allowed the liberty of attending daily Mass) the people of this era used any opportunity they could to make religion a part of their daily life.

Fast forward a thousand years and we can certainly see that daily life has shifted some 180 degrees. Many of the elite often snicker or poke fun at those who are serious about their faith. Even those who are considered serious in their faith pursuit, often hide the true extent of their faith, for fear of being called a holy roller.

The secular talking heads tell us that we should be more like the modern world we are trying to help and change. Religion should be more like the popular culture they tell us. We should try to glean words of wisdom from thinkers like Voltaire, Marx, Freud and Alinsky and entertainers like Madonna, Lady Gaga or even Jimmy Buffet. Yet, have these secular talking heads ever taken their own advice? Have these leftists ever thought, “why was Pope John Paul II, Ronald Reagan or Margaret Thatcher so popular? What could we learned from them? “ (For more on this read my column, If You Like What The Political Left Has Done To Politics, Look At What The Religious Left Has Done To Religion (Left It In Tatters) along with my article, The Construct of Rebellion.

Some might say wasn’t Jesus somewhat of a cultural outcast, like modern day pop culture figures? Well Jesus certainly enjoyed some fun; otherwise he wouldn’t have been at the wedding feast performing his first miracle by turning water into wine no less. However, he was hardly the type of person that endorsed the “its Five o Clock somewhere lifestyle.” He forgave the woman caught in adultery, but told her to “sin no more.” Incidentally, she probably had more clothes on than some who show up at church on Sunday. However, that’s another story.

Our educated world makes excuses for the behavior of those pop stars like Lady Gaga who make edgy and sacrilegious videos and show up in public (at the New York Yankees club house) clad only in undergarments. Those illiterate peoples that lived in Europe one thousand years ago were smart enough to know that despite the corruption they knew existed in the Church, they were far better off listening to the Teachings of the Church than the whims of the world in which they lived. They and their forbearers had witnessed violent feudal warlords that had plunged Europe into centuries of horrific darkness; a darkness that we face today if we listen to the sirens of militant secularism who want us to return to the dying days of Rome.

We often forget it was in those dying days of Rome that many of the elites longed for the days of their elders, when Christianity was outlawed and orgies were commonplace at homes of the movers and shakers of Roman high society, and violent spectacles took place at the coliseum. Today their descendants are gaga over the likes of Lady Gaga, and treat abortion as if it were some sort of coming of age ritual.

Continue reading...

20 Responses to Margaritaville Christianity; God's Way Or Our Way?

  • It’s odd you pick Margaritaville for the title of this post. As you may recall, the lyrics are a not so subtle progression of the singer realizing/admitting that his woes are due to his own fault. A confession, at least, if not a full repentance. That is closer to Christianity than many of the other things you (rightly) point out.

  • If anything, Margaritaville strikes me more as a purgatory than heaven.

  • Matt, the reason I selected Margaritaville as the title was due to the e-mail I received from the woman I mentioned in the article. There really is no disrespect intended to Jimmy Buffett, only to those who look at the mythical Margaritaville as some sort heavenly location. As I indicated in the article, I enjoy Jimmy Buffett’s music and not only have some of his cd’s, but even some albums and dare I say 8 tracks! I agree with you that the lyrics to Margaritaville, as well as others like Son of A Sailor and Come Monday are more introspective than some might otherwise assume.

  • 8 tracks!! Do you still have the equipment to play them?

  • Too bad the pastor likened heaven to Maragaritaville. Although there is plenty of material in the Bible and Church history itself to work with, if he had to use Margaritaville, seems he could have done a much better job focusing on its introspection. But then, I assume this pastor of a mega-church probably does not believe in Purgatory, which would have been a more appropriate comparison.

    I am personally not a big fan of trying to use contemporary pop culture to illuminate Church teaching (particularly since most of pop culture is garbage) but I suppose it can be done with the rare gems that are around and by someone who truly understands what he is doing.

  • My old stereo, complete with 8 Trak died years ago, but I do have a friend that has an operable 8 Trak player (sort of!)

    As for the entertainment based mega churches, I do believe it is the last stopping off point for Catholics & Evangelicals on their way to total isolation from recognizable faith practices. While we have lost too many Catholics to these churches, Evangelicals are in even worse shape as many of their flock have left serious churches for entertainment based mega churches, never to return to an open practice of their faith. One only need look at small towns in rural America where beautiful old mainline churches seemed weathered and beaten, because many left them after their theology and social views took a sharp left turn in the 1970s. The next stop for these folks was often the non denominational church, followed by the entertainment based mega church. When all the bells and whistles were exhausted, many went home.

    Joel Osteen and even Rick Warren have had to make special financial appeals. This reminds me of an e-mail I received shortly after my book, “The Tide is Turning Toward Catholicism came out.” Someone e-mailed me as to how exciting Joel Osteen’s services were, and then went on to poke fun at the “boring Catholic Mass,” or so they thought. The e-mailer concluded, “we have fireworks after our service, do you?” I was tempted to say, “not even at gunpoint.” However, I thought that perhaps some liberal Catholic parish might have done this so I held off.

  • This is funny – a few years ago I walked into a liberal Catholic church and was greeted by a huge picture of what looked like to me as Jesus the beach bum. I dubbed it “Jesus of Margaritaville.”

  • Wow Jane that’s wild. My view about liberal Catholic churches is once you think you have seen it all, something like this pops up. Once on vacation, I remember hearing a priest give a homily in which I wasn’t sure if he was talking about Jesus or Jerry Garcia of the Grateful Dead. However, judging from his tie dye vestements, maybe he thought they were one in the same.

    For the longest time the liberal establishment shunned the mega churches for they perceived them to be part of conservative America. However, following the news that some of the same mega churches that went heavily for GW Bush in 2004 went for Barack Obama in 2008. Now it seems these mega churches aren’t all bad to the discerning liberal in mainstream media or his liberal Catholic follower.

  • Great article. I get frustrated when I read in the news about “Catholics” who want to change our faith and interpret the gospels to their own liking. I think it comes down to obedience. These “teens” have never grown up. You can’t tell them what to think, how to dress, who their friends should be, etc. Plus they are just lying to themselves about the good they are doing when actually they are causing great harm.

  • This morning three young girls in tee-shirts and short shorts took up the offeratory. But normally it seems it is the older men who mostly wear shorts to church. And here in the mountains, you would not think you would find attire more suited to the beach but you do.

    Yes, I have had the sad experience of a world traveler pastor who with his men friends went to Hawaii beaches, Las Vegas, etc. He decorated the church with a bunch of hanging fabric and told us how Jesus ate and drank Hiw way through the Gospels and how we are to enjoy life ‘abuntandly’. He dog has been at the altar and jumped in the baptismal pond during a baptism once. Everyone seems to find it amusing as well as the sometimes off color jokes. One finds mroe reverence and a non=denom entertainment church sometimes.

    Considering the lack of catechesis for 40 years and the ‘liberal’ (unfaithful) bishops who stay in power until either age or the civil authorities remove them, it is something that a remnant remains. But then our church WILL last until the end of time, irregardless of what we sinners do.

  • Very interesting article and comments. I have spent the better part of the last 15 years writing letters to priests, bishops, “Catholic” newspapers, etc., and in general making myself persona non grata to those in my home parish and diocese in New York. Be that as it may, I certainly didn’t write to become popular or well-liked, merely to beg them to consider that they may be failing those of us on the other side of the altar, and how hungry we were for something more than they were offering. What should one do in these instances? I remember that we are called to humility, to refrain from judging others, but when we sit week after week, listening to wishy-washy homilies, never hearing enough about the fact that we are sinners, struggling, or authentic Catholic teaching, seeing EM’s step into the sanctuary in shorts, sloppy pedal pushers, tee shirts, short skirts, skimpy tops, etc., and young people in skirts that barely covers their buttocks, or short shorts, taking up the collection, etc., and you just sit there thinking “what is wrong with people”. Well, here’s what’s wrong….as was mentioned previously, a whole generation of Catholics who were not properly catechized, who are now raising children, who, through no fault of their own, don’t get it. How do you undo years of weak-kneed, spineless bishops, (not all but some) who were more concerned with the bottom line, their standing in the community at large, etc., then to be shepherds to their flocks? How to undo this? It has taken every ounce of self-control I could muster to keep silent, when I sit a row behind a female EM, with a husband couple of young children with her, as she chews gum all throughout Mass, only to get up onto the altar to give us Communion, and she in tight “walking shorts”, and sleeveless tops….I should not have to be distracted from my prayer by this, nor feel the urge to say something to her about her manner of dress or her gum chewing….that should come from the pastor, but needless to say the pastor at this particular church in the diocese of Raleigh, NC, is more concerned with being well-liked and thinking what a great parish he’s got and how wonderful he is, and singing his homily every Christmas at midnight Mass, projecting every baptism, at every Mass, onto the ceiling of the Church, and parading each baby held in the air, up and down the aisles; its all about bells and whistles, and so not about the state of our souls, or a deepening of our spirituality. At 60 years of age, I have almost given up hope, I attend Mass, but look for nothing from it besides the Eucharist, and fullfilment of my obligation, and I watch my grown children, who were raised to love the faith, with reverence and respect, wonder what in the world is going on here, what has happened to the Catholic church. I realize more than ever, we are pretty much out here on our own, and we should learn not to depend upon anyone other than Christ himself.

  • David, the article is a bit long….the problem range from having the cake and eating it too…to Catholics having an identity crisis…they want to identify with the world and its spirit, they don’want to abandon self and self-interest, they do not want to acknowledge their faults and
    sinfulness, they don’t want to imitate Christ nor do they want to imitate Mary the Mother of God. Once all the interior spirituality is suck out of the soul they are left with this empty hull, a graceless void, that will now be filled with the errors of modernisms…dead, dried branches separated from the vine…good for nothings other than to burn. What is the remedy: renewal of theit baptismal vow through consecration to Mary, returning to sacraments of confession for starter…limit your worship at institutions with the 4 legitimate marks of Christ’s True Church: One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic…and upholds the pillars of Faith via: Holy Scripture, the Magesterium, and Oral Tradition. These duplicious, heretics hide behind the rubrics of the Catholic Church do so much harm.

  • Interesting post. I left the Roman Catholic Church for the Byzantine Catholic Church because of the abuses in the liturgy. After suffering liturgical dances, heretical (and unsingable) hymns, invented eucharistic prayers, sermons on the need for “vacations”, extraordinary ministers of communion handing out the Eucharist like mere crackers (without reverence or knowledge of what they were doing) I couldn’t take it anymore. The Lord led me to the local Byzantine Rite Church — I thought I’d died and gone to heaven.
    I was raised in the Latin Rite, but the Novus Ordo is pure torture to me now. Give me a Tridentine Liturgy or the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom/St Basil any day over the watered down liturgy of the Novus Ordo. It’s no wonder that so many Catholics have left the Church in the last 40 years. We’ve been wandering in the desert for that long. I only hope the Latin Rite will reform itself and go back to the Tridentine mass. There was (and is) nothing like it for worshiping the immutable, omnipotent God.

  • These souls move from one pleasure to the next and pay heed to whomever tickles their ears. Suffering and sacrifice has no value, consider something to avoid at all costs, and an annoyance and an inconvenience. This darkness makes them foolish and blind for if they encounter a faithful soul’s correction their either mock, flee, ignore, or take offense…and always always always attack the church, its priests, its Pope and its Teachings, and Scandalize the souls of the faithful first, the innocent second, and the ignorant last…they are the poison arrows and darts hurl at the Church from within. To often the impact of these individuals are minimized to sighs and complaints while casualties of souls occurs because of them. They have trully loss their Catholicity…its a wonderment why do they stay…

  • I’ve worshipped with the Byzantine Mass very, very beautiful…what stuck me most is the humilty of responses and acknowledgement of one sinfulness and repeated prayers for mercy and forgiveness from God…the entire Mass is sung…I will stay with the Latin Rite but my second love is the Byzantine…I hear a Maronite rite will be coming to my city soon…I hope to experience that Mass soon…it is wonderful the beauty of the different rites in union with the Pope and these poor soul forgo this beauty to attend non-denominational gyms.

  • The mention of the Sisters of St. Mary in Ann Arbor brings to mind the recent salutatorian speech in Latin, which wowed the crowd, by a Harvard grad who will be joining the convent. Perhaps Lady Gaga draws a bigger response, but we all know where the path that is wide and easy leads to.

  • Mr. Hartline,

    I admittedly only skimmed your article due to its length. However, I have to heartily and emphatically disagree with you about something you said in the last paragraph ‘There’s nothing wrong with having a cold one or listening to Jimmy Buffet’. The second part of this sentence is where I take issue. I too rather enjoyed Jimmy Buffet. But not too long ago, I made a conscious effort to throw away every last tape and CD of his I owned into the trash. The reason? Buffet promotes rampant promiscuity, lewdness, and drunkeness in many of his songs. As I’m sure you’ll agree, this is completely antithetical to our Catholic faith and morality. It may be ‘fun’ music, of which I listened to it for many years, but it ultimately debases the dignity of women and the beauty of sexual intimacy as God intended between husband and wife. God bless you.

  • Great article and comments! Dave, I used to read The Catholic Report almost every day and I loved your writings there! You might remember that I’m the blind guy who works in Christian radio and we used to correspond occasionally. I know you have good reasons for discontinuing The Catholic Report, but I hope that God will lead you to bring it back someday.

    As usual, your comments are right on target and I agree completely. That’s why I love priests like Father John Corapi. I wish there were more priests like him at our parishes. I would love for Father Corapi to speak at the National Prayer Breakfast or a similar event. Unfortunately, we had to endure Obama’s liberal secular rants and Secretary of State Clinton really made my blood boil when she spoke! Can all of you imagine what it would be like if Father Corapi spoke at one of these events? The way he and others like him preach the truth would make a lot of people squirm but more importantly, it might lead to some conversions.

  • Victor, so good to read your comments. I remember you well. I pray for you and all of the fine folks who were apart of the Catholic Report. Life keeps me busy with faith, family, employment and writing articles. The fact that the so many people are upset at the Church shows that the Church is doing what is necessary. We stumbled for a while, but as with other times in Church History the stumbles are often followed with great bursts of faithful evangelization.

  • I agree with the poster who threw out his buffett cd’s. He is an ex-Catholic and often ridicules the church and specifically altar boys. His music is a scourge that has taken millions down the wrong path in life. He even idiotically blamed bush for the recent gulf oil spill.

Anti-Catholic Bigotry Alive and Well at the University of Illinois

Friday, July 9, AD 2010

I am an alum of the U of I.  I obtained my BA in 79 and my JD in 82.  My wife is also an alum of the U of I, obtaining her MA in Spanish in 82.  Our eldest son will be entering the U of I as a freshman in August.  I therefore found the news that  Professor Kenneth Howell, an adjunct Professor at the University of Illinois, has been fired for teaching in a course about Catholicism  basic Catholic doctrine on homosexuality quite alarming:

Continue reading...

39 Responses to Anti-Catholic Bigotry Alive and Well at the University of Illinois

  • Looking at the e-mail from the student to the administration, and the original e-mail from Howell, two things seem clear:

    1. Neither the student nor his “friend” have a clear understanding of the purpose or content of Howell’s e-mail. They clearly cannot distinguish between advocacy and presentation of a fairly standard-issue argument in Catholic moral theology. I might expect this of high school students. College students should know better.

    2. This supposed college student’s grasp of standard English is most distressing. “Anyways”? Yikes!

    I am forced to question the Department Chair’s ability to notice the above.

  • In other words: Teach Catholicism, but don’t teach that it has anything to do with reason and reality. We must continue the lie that faith and reason are at odds, that the Church opposes gay marriage solely as a matter of religious faith, and that religion is purely a matter of private opinion, not public action.

    And this is supposed to “promote independent thought”? I’d wager that those students have never encountered any though quite so radical as Prof. Howell was exposing them to. He was doing exactly what they say they wanted.

  • Elena Kagan demonstrated how liberal pandering to any special interest group trumps your right to freedom to exercise your religion.

    Kagan on Whether Catholic Church Could Recruit at Harvard Law

    http://tinyurl.com/369nxwj

    This is precisely how Hitler took over Germany. It began with politically correct “thinking” which led to politically correct “law” and everything Hitler did was “legal”. This “judge” who never met a politically correct cause she didnn’t love and support (regardless of it’s standing the law) is about to take a seat on the highest court in the land.

    Yet she is touted for her “brilliance” and legal scholarship. They teach you all about the law in law school – they don’t teach you a thing about JUSTICE.

    ———————–
    “We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”

    ~ President John Adams

    “Authentic democracy is possible only in a state ruled by law, and on the basis of a correct conception of the human person. It requires that the necessary conditions be present for the advancement both of the individual through education and formation in true ideals, and of the “subjectivity” of society through the creation of structures of participation and shared responsibility. Nowadays there is a tendency to claim that agnosticism and skeptical relativism are the philosophy and the basic attitude which correspond to democratic forms of political life. Those who are convinced that they know the truth and firmly adhere to it are considered unreliable from a democratic point of view, since they do not accept that truth is determined by the majority, or that it is subject to variation according to different political trends. It must be observed in this regard that if there is no ultimate truth to guide and direct political activity, then ideas and convictions can easily be manipulated for reasons of power. As history demonstrates, a democracy without values easily turns into open or thinly disguised totalitarianism.”

    ~ Pope John Paul II – Centesimus Annus

  • theory of Catholicism

    So now Catholicism is a theory and not a faith?

  • Just read the emails. I’m no natural law philosopher, but wasn’t the professor’s explanation of natural law a little weak? It was more about biology than teleology. Nor was his description of utilitarianism exactly correct.

    Still not grounds for dismissing him, however.

  • Does anyone else see the immediate bias by Kaler when saying “the theory of Catholicism.” This sums the issue up. Another situation of higher education punishing the religious guy.

  • I hope that it is starting to dawn on the “Catholic Church” that when you sleep with dogs you wake up with fleas. Amen!

  • TonyC,

    Are you referring to the U of I as dogs?

  • Do you think if he had taught what Islam tenets are in the Koran on morality and homosexuality and the handling of those of that orientation, he would have lost his post.

  • “When I joined the military it was against regulations to be homosexual, then it became optional. I’m getting out before it becomes mandatory.” GySgt Harry Berres, USMC

  • Guys, guys! Remember, you’re free to talk all you want about Catholicism, as long as you don’t believe it!

  • Very, very troubling indeed! May God have mercy on us. It is so hard for me to see the radical decay all around. May I work to be faithful, to pray for the Catholic Church and for men like this, punished harshly for speaking of their religious beliefs, that were once protected by the very Constitution that is now used to persecute them.

  • This is just awful. Kenneth Howell, in case you don’t know, is a former Presbyterian minister who converted to the Catholic faith — which of course, forced him to give up THAT job — and who has written several books on Catholic doctrine. He converted well BEFORE he took this job. He was hired by the U of I specifically to teach classes on Catholic doctrine, which have been offered, for credit, for decades. It should not surprise anyone that he agrees with Catholic teaching on homosexuality and other issues.

    What he said is not “hate speech” any more than, say, an observant Orthodox Jewish professor who teaches classes specifically on Judaism attempting to explain kosher dietary laws and having a student who raises hogs back home take offense at it.

  • Friend, huh? Might this ‘friend’ not be a student? Is it possible that someone just wants a politically correct elucidation of the theory of Catholicism without any of the truth of what the Church teaches?

    I am also curious, how does saying that sodomy is an unnatural act ostracize people with homosexualist proclivities? Any biologist would tell you that certain human orifices are for evacuation and not anything else, except in cases of medical testing. Should we outlaw the theory of biology?

    Apparently the school wants to teach the theory of Catholicism and disassociation themselves from what the Church actually teaches. Why? Does anyone really think the UI Religion Dept. is somehow associated with the Church or with Catholics in anyway? Why did his statement violate the ‘inclusivity’ policy? Was he banning homosexualists from his class? Did he tell them that Sodomites aren’t allowed to learn about the theory of Catholicism? Were they told they were not allowed to disagree with Natural Law? Since when does the Church or those who teach her truths believe that humans don’t have free will?

    Are we going to fire history teachers who teach the offensive act of killing Jews? How do you study Nazi Germany without addressing the wholesale slaughter of Jews, Catholics, etc.? You can’t. It is the truth. Nazis did kill Jews. It is offensive. It certainly isn’t inclusive. I seriously doubt that any history teacher worth their mettle thinks it is OK to kill Jews – but they teach it nonetheless, because that is what Nazis did and what they believed. No one has to agree with it. This is ridiculous.

    I wonder if its OK to teach about Nazism because most Nazis were Sodomites and not OK to teach about Catholicism because the Church teaches that Sodomy is not OK, despite the proclivities of a small number of her members – of course, we don’t talk about pederast priests, we talk about pedophile priests because if we addressed the real problem, we may have to indict Sodomy. Me thinks there is an agenda here and just like in the late Wiemar Republic it starts with the homosexualists.

  • I was tempted to say that this development would make Msgr. Edward Duncan, the VERY longtime U of I Newman Center chaplain (over 50 years, from the 1940s to the 1990s), “turn over in his grave”, but after doing a quick google search on his name it appears he’s still alive, or was as recently as 2008. Anyone know his status? I don’t doubt he would have a LOT to say about this.

  • They would never have pulled this Elaine if Duncan were still in charge of the Newman Center. He was a formidable presence on the campus and not a man to brook any insult against the Church, as I noted when I was at the U of I. Judging from the spineless reaction of the Newman Center to this outrage, I guess the University decided that Catholics would just take this slap in the face lying down. Time to prove them wrong.

  • Will they fire Muslims for taking the same position?

  • “spineless reaction of the Newman Center to this outrage”

    I just hopped over to Thomas Peters’ blog and read the actual letter from Dr. Howell himself, explaining his side of the story.

    After reading it, I’m almost as ticked off at the Newman Center and the Diocese of Peoria as I am at the university! It APPEARS that they told him “Sorry, can’t help you, and by the way, we no longer need your services either, so good luck and don’t let the door hit you on your way out.” What’s up with that?

  • Do I have this right? A man teaches the 2,000 year old teachings of Holy Mother Church in a U course on Catholicism and is terminated for hate speech.

    But Obama supporters call for murdering crackers and their babies; and that’s free speech.

    Go figure.

  • If the “Institute of Catholic Thought” for which Dr. Howell worked is structured in such a way that an instructor can no longer work for the Institute if they no longer work for the university, well, isn’t this living proof that the Newman Foundation and the Diocese had better do something about that? If they don’t, then I will have to take back all my past comments about the U of I being a more “Catholic” university (because of the quality of its Newman Center, and of the ICT classes) than some Catholic in name only schools are.

  • Pingback: Anti-Catholic Bigotry Alive and Well at the University of Illinois  | Skoopio.com
  • As a no longer proud alum of U of I it shows me that the motto Learning and Labor has left the learning behind. Universities understand only one thing now and that is money. Don’t just write comments on blogs, write the president of U of I at [email protected] If you are an alumm tell him you won’t send them another dime until this is fixed. Send emails to all of your alumni friends. Post this on all of your blogs.

  • Pingback: "University of Illinois Instructor Fired Over Catholic Beliefs [UPDATED]" and related posts
  • Msgr. Duncan is still alive. His health isn’t so great anymore, but he occasionally makes appearances at St. Johns. I know he was there as recently as last fall for a special event.

  • This is simply further proof that the so-called Diversity Movement is about anything BUT diversity. It is about conformity to a set agenda with dogmas as entrenched as those of the Catholic Church with whom they are at war. Homosexuality and the praise thereof top the list of that agenda.

    I was particularly awed by the following excerpt taken from the email sent by the offended students “friend” and the mention of “independent thought” : “Teaching a student about the tenets of a religion is one thing,” the student wrote in the e-mail. “Declaring that homosexual acts violate the natural laws of man is another. The courses at this institution should be geared to contribute to the public discourse and promote independent thought; not limit one’s worldview and ostracize people of a certain sexual orientation.”

    Who is genuinely aware of the meaning of true public discourse here? Who is promoting genuinely independent thought? Who is being ostracized? It certainly isn’t the Diversity Movement, not is it the offended student, who is still a student, while the good Prof. is beating the streets looking for a job.

  • Food for thought received in an email from the Manhattan Declaration group:

    ” . . . may be one of the gravest, most insidious threats to religious freedom I’ve seen in my lifetime: What may be an attempt, at the very highest levels of government, to RE-DEFINE the very meaning of religious freedom, from “free exercise” to merely private worship.”

  • “Will they fire Muslims for taking the same position?”

    No, only anti-catholic bigotry is allowed.

  • Is there any anti-Buddhism, anti-Hinduism, anti-Islamic, anti-protestant? Why there is anti-Catholic Bigotry? If there is answer please answer me. Thanks!

  • GM: I think (bombs away!) that there is anti-Catholic bigotry because Holy Mother the Church (the minority that actually adheres to its precepts) is a major safeguard against secular humanist cultural/societal hegemony.

    And, if one believes (as a small minority of so-called Catholics believes) that we are IN this world, but not OF this world, one is less easily controlled and, thus, one is a threat to the statist, fascist far-left liberals intent on controlling aspects of our lives.

    And, because the majority of bishops, nearly all so-called catholic scholars, catholic university regimes, etc. have sold out to Obama and the socilaists. In this rounnd the bowl of pottage is full of human dignity, peace, social justice, etc.

    I could barf!

  • T. Shaw,

    Food for thought received in an email from the Manhattan Declaration group:

    ” . . . may be one of the gravest, most insidious threats to religious freedom I’ve seen in my lifetime: What may be an attempt, at the very highest levels of government, to RE-DEFINE the very meaning of religious freedom, from “free exercise” to merely private worship.”

    That is why the Obama administration and many liberals continue to say “Freedom of Worship” instead of “Freedom of Religion”.

    They want to eliminate faith completely from the public square by redefining certain precepts of the U.S. Constitution.

  • You can say that Catholic bigotry is alive at the University of Illinois, but your church is a most dangerous foe of civil and religious liberty. The Catholic Bishops descended on Congress and pressured our legislators to pass Obama’s health care bill, even though the nation could not afford it and is on the verge to ruin and bankruptcy. The Bishops have no respect whatsoever for the U.S. Constitution. All across the board the church is pushing its’ agenda, seeking to dominate and control. The papacy is battering down the walls of church-state separation every where she can. She is pushing to enforce Sunday observance upon all of Europe, and is pushing for Sunday enforcement in the U.S. also. The Founding Fathers enacted safeguards, but these are being dismantled. Persecution is returning as sure as day. The words of John Adams, our second president, are proving true, as liberty of conscience is more and more threatened, “I have long been decided in opinion that a free government and the Roman Catholic religion can never exist together in any nation or Country.” “Liberty and Popery cannot live together.”

  • Logan,

    The Catholic Bishops are U.S. citizens.

    You need to brush up on the constitution.

    The last time I read it we all have freedom of expression.

  • Actually Logan the Bishops opposed Obamacare due to fear of it funding abortion. However I have found that anti-Catholicism and rank ignorance tend to go together so I am unsurprised that you are misinformed.
    As to your comment about the Church attempting to enforce Sunday observance, that is a fantasy you either got from an anti-Catholic website or dreamed up in your fevered imagination.

  • Logan, if you are some sort of Christian, then you should prayerfully read John 8:32.

    If you aren’t Christian, then you should pray, “God, if you really exist, help me understand what you are telling me in this Scripture reading.” and then read John 8:32.

    God and His Church do not impose, He proposes – the rest is up to you. Know that your Father loves you, despite any feelings you have otherwise.

  • Logan,

    The wall of separation between Church and States is from a letter Jefferson wrote in 1802 to the Danbury Baptists, a religious minority fearing that they would not be able to worship the way they were inclined and Jefferson was assuring them that the first amendment to the Constitution protected their religion from interference by the federal government.

    Jefferson was an adept diplomat and knowing his audience, Baptists, he wrote in terms they would understand. The wall of separation was drawn from a sermon by Roger Williams, whose sermons would have been known well among Baptists in 1802.

    The particular sermon is titled, “The Garden in the Wilderness” preached in 1644. He said, “When they have opened a gap in the hedge or wall of separation between the garden of the Church and the wilderness of the world, God hath ever broke down the wall itself, removed the candlestick, and made his garden a wilderness, as at this day. And that there fore if He will e’er please to restore His garden and paradise again, it must of necessity be walled in peculiarly unto Himself from the world.”

    Clearly Jefferson was referring to the fact that the wall separated the Church (the garden) from the State (the wilderness of the world) to protect the Church from the corruption of the political power. He was not even intoning that the State had a right to be ‘protected’ from the Church. In Jefferson’s time, even though it followed the Enlightenment, people of faith knew that religion formed men in virtue and virtuous leaders, men of character, were what was required to govern the Republic.

    Twisting this wall of separation to mean that religion has no place in public life is an atheistic Communist ploy. Probably concocted by the Communist front – the ACLU. It is a lie and intelligent people using the gift of human reason wouldn’t employ such a tired and weak argument.

  • “Will they fire Muslims for taking the same position?”

    An excellent question! Are similar courses in Islam being taught there?

  • Pingback: Dr. Kenneth Howell-Update « The American Catholic
  • Pingback: Victory! Dr. Ken Howell Reinstated at the University of Illinois! « The American Catholic
  • Pingback: Faculty Committee Finds That Dr. Howell’s Academic Due Process Rights Were Denied « The American Catholic

What The Week Long LeBron James Ego Charade Can Tell Us About The State Of the World, As Well As The Catholic Church

Friday, July 9, AD 2010

UPDATE  Check Back On Monday To See What Time The Scheduled Appearance On The Al Kresta Show Will Take Place. Al Kresta Is Heard On EWTN Radio ( Over 100 Affiliate Stations) Check Your Local Listings Or Click Here To Listen Live

The LeBron James saga was particularly painful for those of us who live in Ohio and are Cavaliers fans. However a cursory glance at some of the national columnist’s reaction, to the week-long ego charade broadcasted by ESPN, gives me hope that many others have seen through this smoke screen as well. (Check these columns here here and  here.) What we witnessed Thursday night and the excuses made for it, along with sucking up by some of the national powers that be, gives us some insight on a world full of instant gratification and the desire to party on in South Beach, rather than roll up their sleeves in places like Cleveland. Talk about a metaphor for the Catholic Church.

For years now many faithful orthodox minded Catholics have painfully watched friends and loved ones leave the Catholic Church for either the local hoopty do mega church (Mother Angelica’s words,) or for no church at all, claiming they needed to feel better. They didn’t like a Church who couldn’t get with the times, had too many sinners in the pulpit, or talked to much about sin and not enough about heaven. Perhaps the LeBron James fiasco has given us the perfect recipe for what we should do; give it right back to them.

I grew in a small town (or city depending upon your classification) full of hard working class folks (and farmers who came into town from the outlying areas) where flowery words were few and far between and one would be easily called out for his actions. Now we all know the Church has had some difficult times in the last few years. However, this is because we wanted to be liked, instead of doing it God’s way, whether that was politically correct or not.

Today we have a new crop of orthodox-minded young seminarians, priests and women religious who are pious, but not above calling people out concerning their phony excuses for not taking their Faith more serious by not practicing it, or leaving it all together. In my book, The Tide is Turning Toward Catholicism, I outline the increase in vocations, especially in dioceses which are more openly orthodox in their approach. The Father McBrien’s and Kung’s of the world are being replaced by younger versions of Father Corapi and Father Pacwa. Though these two priests have different approaches, they are not above calling out the phony reality show world we often seem to celebrate in our culture and religion.

Continue reading...

20 Responses to What The Week Long LeBron James Ego Charade Can Tell Us About The State Of the World, As Well As The Catholic Church

  • LeBron will be lucky to get any contracts to endorse anything outside of Miami. The last athlete to fall this hard was OJ Simpson. No good comes from stabbing people in the back.

  • Strange the comments were about Lebron and not the comparing of the event to so called ‘catholics” in the pew, who have forgotten or have been swayed by the glitter of change and culture. They have forgot or never understood, our Lord did not give us rules that were elective in nature, but tenets that were set for all eternity regardless of occurences or changes in our world and scripture that fully explain what occurs when we forget that fact.

  • I read the letter to the Cavs fans by the owner guaranteeing that the team will win a title before LeBron does. If that happens, he’ll be left feeling like the Prodigal Son, ashamed of himself for letting greed and glitter get the best of him.

  • Lebron who?

    re: getting people back on the road to eternal life. The Pelosi-Obama-Reid regime may be a blessing in disguise. Tens of millions of unintended consequences of their misrule and the devastations of the economy and our way of life may bring people to realize that this glitzy world is a chimera and their true home is Holy Mother Church and in Heaven after repenting, confessing, doing penance, amending their lives and through good works glorifying Almighty God, through Jesus Christ, Our Lord and Savior, in the Unity of the Holy Spirit.

  • Goodbye Clevland.
    Turn down the rock and roll
    Turn out the light.
    Goodbye Clevland.
    Goodbye, Good luck and goodnight.

    ~ Robert Earl Keen

  • Sorry, I have not been following the Lebron thing, and don’t follow basketball in general. But I don’t see much of a comparison between Lebron and the state of the Catholic Church.

    Lebron left because apparently he believes the Cleveland team is not good enough to win a championship. He decided that winning one was important to him , so he left for team that he thinks could get him there (an he could get them there). Has Lebron played for several teams for short periods of time? Has he hopped around a lot (I don’t know)?
    I can’t blame him – how many of us would leave their current job for one they felt was better (either better pay or better conditions, or maybe both?)? More importantly, how many of our employers would keep us around if we started sucking at our job? How long would the Cavs have kept Lebron if he suddenly started to suck (and how many fans would be clamouring for him to be cut)? Loyalty is a two way street my friend, and Big Sports, like any other big business treats it one way only.

    In the end, Lebron’s situation is an employee/employer one, not anything having to do with loyalty to one’s faith (employer/ee loyatly died decades ago). Just completely different situations.

  • LeBron who indeed.

    What an appalling waste of time, energy, effort, talent, and other human resources, speculating about the fate of a ball tosser.

    Enjoy it on your own time, have a beer, cheer when your team scores, boo when the other guys do, fine. To get this involved in a sports game and a sports figure is… I can’t use the word I’d like to use, but it begins with f, ends with ing, and is followed by ridiculous.

    Our Church is in crisis, and our government is out of control. Our southern border is menaced by marauders, Europe is being overrun by Islam, and the US is on the verge of another Great Depression.

    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article19205.htm

    “If the world is unwilling to continue to accumulate dollars, the US will not be able to finance its trade deficit or its budget deficit. As both are seriously out of balance, the implication is for yet more decline in the dollar’s exchange value and a sharp rise in prices.”

    Worry about that. Not where some ball player decides to continue putting the ball in the net.

  • A couple of points. Yes, the whole LeBron fiasco is pretty ridiculous, which is what the article was attempting to point out. However, we don’t live in the world of our choosing, we have to deal with the cards we are dealt. Perhaps, this is why St Paul used sports anologies. If he didn’t, he would have been just another egg headed itinerant preacher in the 1st Century Roman Empire. Geeks by their very nature don’t attract crowds, perhaps this is why St Paul among many others through the centuries, including our present Magesterium have brought in sports anologies. Our own beloved Holy Father, Pope Benedict XVI used the World Cup in his remarks to highlight the need for teamwork in the realm of Faith.

    This blog is revelant because it addresses many current issues, I believe Tito and myself have thrwon in sports anaolgies simply because sports is a mainstay of our society, and yes we enjoy it.

    The second point: As for why LeBron James. He is a Akron St Vincent-St Mary’s grad, a historic Catholic high school in northeast Ohio. He has donated money to the school and helped to promote. In addition, he received one of his NBA most Valuable Player Awards at his high school, something that I believe has never happened.

    The point I was making about his shameless treachery of self promotion is very pertinent in our world where faith takes a back seat to me first promotion. Sadly, it seems LeBron has taken that road, a road he promised he would never take. As much I detest all of this pop culture nonsense, to ignore it, or pretend it doesn’t exist would simply be sticking our heads in the ground. We are not called to be Essenes but to live in the world, just not be of the world.

  • Dave,

    You certainly make some valid points. But this goes too far:

    “The LeBron James saga was particularly painful for those of us who live in Ohio and are Cavaliers fans.”

    Painful? Really? It caused you pain?

    St. Paul may have used sports analogies (where was this exactly?), but he never endorsed the gladiator games at the Colosseum. I’m not saying you endorsed the modern equivalent, but when I look at the madness that overcomes sports crowds – especially in a time of political, economic and social crisis – I don’t see a bunch of regular people enjoying sports.

    I see the bread and circuses of Rome, with which the people were distracted while civilization collapsed. A pacifier, a placater, a sedative – followed by irrational emotional outbursts and torrents of rage, all directed at some ridiculous non-event instead of at the people who are imposing a new tyranny upon us.

    I agree fully with the need to relate to people and their interests. I’m no ivory tower intellectual, I detest alienating and obtuse language, esoteric jargon, etc. But at a certain point, people do need to be slapped in the face with the truth, and they need to be told bluntly that every second of real and genuine PASSION they waste on a sports figure subtracts from the struggle they could be mounting against the growing threat to our liberties and security as citizens.

  • Joe, a very interesting post. I shall do my best to answer questions. With regard as to do I really feel pain regarding LeBron James leaving the Cavs. Yes, I do. Now pain comes in many stages for example; I have been stung on my left hand by a bee and that was painful but rather scant compared to the pain experienced when I broke that hand some years later. I hope you get my drift. I recently felt a sad pain when a fellow Catholic told told me that his business partner, also a practicing Catholic, took liberties with the business and the money causing great scandal and hardship. I felt pain for the injured and the knowledge that some non believers would get a kick out of the matter. To say that one can only feel pain when something major happens to them or some great tragedy in the Church, nation or world sounds rather cold and Dr Spock like to me.

    As for the whole Roman bread and circuses analogy first floated by the American Left in the early half of the last century and floated again by the likes of Libertarian Alex Jones, it just doesn’t make sense. The Roman population was by and large illiterate and caught up in violence and warfare. Are your really saying that modern sports fans want to see others torn apart in their local stadiums?

    The interesting assertion made is that intelllectuals in Europe are not sports minded and therefore Americans are rather ignorant. As a matter of fact TV ratings for soccer’s World Cup dwarf that of the US Super Bowl American TV ratings. Henry Kissinger has often commented that European intellectuals, espeically in Germany and England often treat World Cup defeats as some sort of national period of mourning and or deep period of introspection abou their place in the world.

    We must remember because of social engineering, sports is one of the few places where honest to goodness competition can take place, which is perhaps why Europe with all of their Social Democratic-Statist governemnts likes sports so much.

    I can’t help but think of the Saturday Nighr Live skit (of all things circa December 2000) when the presidential outcome was still up in the air. The skit consisted of a spook of the future if each of the candidates, GW Bush or Al Gore were elected. The future showed a relentlessly sighing (remember those odious debate sighs) Al Gore bemoaning the poor performance of Americans on his interactive quiz results. He would leture the public for hours on end concerning Western Civics, Economnics and the Environment and still not everyone was up to his standards.

    Joe, do you really think the problems in the Church and the world of politics would be solved if everyone was as smart as you think they should be? Perhaps this why Jesus said the poor will always be among us when Judas and some of Apostles threw a hissy fit at the pentitent woman use of the expensive perfumes on Jesus. Perhaps it was the Jesus’ way of saying; don’t think your way can fix every problem. Even if everyone watched TV news, read a plethora of newspapers and websites; the problems would remain. Perhaps this is why the late WIlliam F Buckley said he would rather be goverened by the first 1,000 names in the Boston Phone book, than by the Harvard Faculty.

    Whether it is Faith or Governance, it isn’t all about knowledge, it is courage and perserverance and lots of prayer that are needed for success. For example, General McClellan graduated 2nd in his class from West Point, while General Grant graduated in the bottom half of his class. However, as Shelby Foote noted; General Grant had 4:00 in the Morning Courage and General McClellan had none during the Civil War.

    The Church is going through a tough time now, but it has been far, far worse. After the Reformation, many Northern European cities had few if any priests to administer the sacraments. Check out the life of St Francis DeSales; when he arrived in Geneva as bishop he was treated to rotten fruit being thrown at him and few if any little old ladies in the pews. When he died, half of Geneva had come back to the Church. I am sure had he convened a strategy session of the best and brightest; they would have said your talents would best be served in a more receptive location. Well, just some of my thoughts on what you wrote.

  • Since we’re engaged in a spiritual battle for souls, it’s only fitting that sports analogies be used. The recent firing of the Catholic professor at the University of Illinois is one example of the intelligentsia putting down the “small people” for wanting to take the path that is hard and narrow but leads to life in Christ rather than the path that is wide and easy but leads to destruction–or in the case of the French soccer players who don’t do hard work, a trip back home in coach class.

  • Dave,

    On your personal pain: different strokes, I suppose. But you didn’t quantify it originally. A “small” amount of pain is fine. The utter grief that some appear to be going through is, in my view, a disproportionate response.

    You say of the bread & circuses argument:

    “it just doesn’t make sense”

    Well, it does make sense, and you don’t seem to be arguing against the “sense” of it as much as you are its mere existence.

    ” The Roman population was by and large illiterate and caught up in violence and warfare.”

    Our population isn’t illiterate by Roman standards, but it is less educated by the standards of the developed world. And there is plenty of apathy to go around, even if people have basic reading skills.

    As for violence, have you paid no notice of our sex and violence saturated entertainment “culture”? It’s everywhere, it’s a constant feed of increasingly horrific stimuli.

    “Are your really saying that modern sports fans want to see others torn apart in their local stadiums?”

    The rioting that takes place on occasion suggests that at least some are. So is the immense popularity of professional wrestling, “ultimate fighting championship”, and other increasingly bloody “sports” contests.

    In any case, the main argument is that people are distracted. I don’t have to prove that they are violent, or potentially violent, in order to show that they are investing time and resources in sports that would better be invested in politics.

    Frankly I think the American founders would be horrified at the cult of sports in this nation. Entertainment, or what the founders in their classical republican worldview called luxury, was considered to be the enemy of moral AND civic virtue. The extent to which the people indulge in games and vices is the extent to which they diminish as the sort of responsible citizens that a free republic needs to exist.

    As for Europe: I couldn’t care less. I’m not hung up on Europe, I don’t idolize Europe. I don’t see the relevance.

    Please don’t compare me to Al Gore. I don’t want to bore people with lectures. But as student of Aristotle’s “middle way”, I recognize that there is another extreme we want to avoid, which is hyping people with meaningless distractions.

    We have to appeal to both the passions and the intellect. In fact I’m much more about appealing to passions right now than I am intellect, because many issues are over-intellectualized. But I want to direct that passion AWAY from sports and entertainment, and TOWARDS politics. Politics can be as passionate and competitive as any game or any concert – and it is precisely because of this truth that these other distractions are dangled before the people.

    So I think you misunderstand my aim, especially when you ask,

    “Joe, do you really think the problems in the Church and the world of politics would be solved if everyone was as smart as you think they should be?”

    It is NOT about intelligence, so no, I absolutely do not think that. What I think is that people, regardless of their intellectual abilities, should care more about politics than they do sports or the media-created popular culture. One does not need intellect to participate in politics, any more than they do religion.

    ” Even if everyone watched TV news, read a plethora of newspapers and websites; the problems would remain.”

    I submit that they would be less severe with a politically active populace, and this was the unanimous opinion of the founders of this republic. This is what self-governance means. This is what liberty requires. Slavery and oppression are the defaults of this fallen world; freedom is rare and must be actively fought for and maintained.

    “Perhaps this is why the late WIlliam F Buckley said he would rather be goverened by the first 1,000 names in the Boston Phone book, than by the Harvard Faculty.”

    I think he said it because the elites at Harvard, moreso now than even in his day, are self-hating, self-destructive, and isolated from the people. I agree with his sentiment entirely – but in order to govern, those 1,000 names would have to put down the beer and the remote.

    It is precisely because I DON’T want an elite to run our lives that I DO want the people to stop focusing on nonsense and become better citizens. Don’t you see that? You can’t just say that sovereignty lies with the people, and expect it to stay that way without their involvement. If the people don’t exercise their power, others – the elites – will do it for them. Nature abhors a vacuum. If the people create one through the abrogation of self-government, then the masters will step right back into their comfortable position.

    It is vital that you and others understand this.

  • Joe, I think you are completely missing the point here. No one that I have heard is saying that people shouldn’t take their civic responsibility seriously. Believe me, I have spent 20 years in Catholic education, not to mention the five years I have been doing writing and speaking (all of which at little pay) to answer a call that I believe God has for all of us to be involved with Church and State. However, that doesn’t mean that all of the problems will be solved if we all get involved.

    It seems you don’t understand what I am saying about sports and entertaintment. First of all professional wrestling is not sports, it is entertainment which is why the World Wrestling Federation had to change their name from that to World Wrestling Entertainment. The reason people like sports is that our culture is so involved in social engineering that it has taken away our God given talents and the right to compete with them.

    The pop culture silliness such as who Paris Hilton is dating has nothing to do with competition. She hasn’t done anything with whatever talents God have her; she has merely been born to enabling parents who let her do whatever she wants. There is a big difference between that and the field of athletic competition.

    The three men most attacked by the intelligentsia for their lack of supposed intellect were President Truman, President Reagan and President GW Bush. Do you really think the nation would have been better served with the likes of Governor Dewey, Vice President Mondale and Vice President Gore?

    I am for civic participation, I have spent my life doing it and teaching the necessity of it. However, I am under no illusion that by simply doing it, we will live in a better world. According to your line of thinking the state of Vermont and the US citiies of Cambridge, Massachusetts, Berkeley, California and the Dutch city of Amsterdam would be the greatest places to live, because they have one of the highest civic participation rates in the world.

  • Dave,

    I wasn’t aware that there was only one point – I tried to address all of your points.

    “However, that doesn’t mean that all of the problems will be solved if we all get involved.”

    Who said it meant that? Certainly not I.

    And it just doesn’t matter. See, I think you’re missing the point with things like that. It doesn’t matter whether or not all problems will be solved, such a guarantee is not and never should be the requisite of political participation – the bottom line is that no problems at all will even be addressed by an inactive citizenry. That’s certainly what the elite wants.

    You say I don’t understand your argument about sports. I submit to you that I do understand it, and disagree with it.

    “There is a big difference between that and the field of athletic competition.”

    Insofar as both serve as a distraction from issues that matter, there is no difference. Other differences may exist, but they are not relevant to me.

    “Do you really think the nation would have been better served with the likes of Governor Dewey, Vice President Mondale and Vice President Gore?”

    Why are you asking me this? I invite you to read my previous post for the answer to this question. Carefully, perhaps, this time.

    “ccording to your line of thinking the state of Vermont and the US citiies of Cambridge, Massachusetts, Berkeley, California and the Dutch city of Amsterdam would be the greatest places to live, because they have one of the highest civic participation rates in the world.”

    I’m not sure what “civic participation rate” is, or measures – you can break that down for me if you like.

  • Joe, this could go on and on. However, I think we can agree that our western culture is too pop culture oriented and more people should attend Mass, know what the Catholic Faith is all about, and become more participatory in our civic responsibilities. However, to say that sports and entertainment holds too much sway on our society is bordering on nanny statism and eggheaded pontification. I am sure you wouldn’t suggest the following. However, it could lead to some actually thinking that if Broadway, Hollywood, Major League Baseball, the World Cup and the National Football League and college football took the rest of the year off, and everyone went to town hall meetings to resolve the various problems plaguing our country and world, the world would be a better place.

    Sadly, some people don’t care about their souls, or the state of the world or country, try as we might and pray as we might, they all won’t change. I have tried to illustrate this in my previous posts, using examples from all over the world. I will throw in a couple more. In the last five years or so, my writings have taken me to see and hear many great things happening in the Church. As you can probbaly figure out from the title of my book, “The Tide is Turning Toward Catholicism,” I am an optimist. However, I am a realist as well. Some people just don’t care and some people who claim they care, just want to control others.

    For example, you asked about what I meant by participation rates in reference to my statement that the state of Vermont and the cities of Cambridge, Massachuseets, Berkeley, California and the Dutch city of Amsterdam have high participation rates. What I meant was voting participation and membership in civic clubs, neighborhoood groups, school organizations etc.

    These whacky far left locations would hardly be my cup of tea. Their foil of civic responsibility is really a foil for state control and the opportunity to attack religion, i.e. the Catholic Church at every turn.

    Some people chose to be ingorant and or commit various sins ad nauseam. The late Bishop Sheen spoke of a man he met in Paris (I believe it was the 1920s.) This man, (who was British) played piano in the lobby of the hotel that then Father Sheen was staying. They chit-chatted during one of his breaks and the British piano player agreed to have dinner with Father Sheen. The piano player seemed to boost to the future famous bishop that women couldn’t keep their hands off him, some had even left their husbands. The piano player went on to say that after a few months he gets bored with each woman and then moves on to another. Obviously Bishop Sheen was shocked so he met with the man for the next few days. When the time seemed right, he took him to Sacre Coeur to pray before the Blessed Sacrament. The man stayed all night and thanked Father Sheen for his insights, prayers and time. The piano player said he was a changed man. A few days later they agreed to meet again for dinner. When they did, the piano player came with another woman on his arm. It has happened again the man explained. Father Sheen pulled him aside to see what was really happening and the man explained the sinful life was far more enjoyable, even if it could result in a horrible end for his soul. What I am trying to say is that not everyone does what they should.

    Jesus was faced with two similar situations. The first occurred when the penitent woman poured perfume over him and Judas and some of the other Apostles protested saying it could have been sold and helped many poor people. Jesus answered; “The poor you will always have among you.” It was his way of remdinding the Apostles that though we should help everyone we can, it still doesn’t mean that it will be solved the way we think it should be. One more example involves the parable about the rich man asking to go back from (hell or purgatory) and tell those other rich relatives and friends of his to change their ways lest they end up in the same horrible predicament that he was encountering. Jesus told him that they wouldn’t listen to the prophets, why would they listen to him. Joe, I think we can agree that we should all be more involved in Church & State affairs. However, trying to tell people that sports and entertainment should be severely curtailed when so many of our saints and Holy Fathers were involved with both sounds a bit over the top.

  • Dave,

    You’re simply wrong. I don’t know if it is a logical or a rhetorical issue. Only you do.

    “However, to say that sports and entertainment holds too much sway on our society is bordering on nanny statism and eggheaded pontification.”

    It really is no such thing at all. Stating what I believe to be a mere fact in no way necessitates a nanny-state, and it is hardly an observation limited to the ivory tower.

    I could just as well say that ignoring the sway that these forces hold over society is to engage in bad citizenship and willful ignorance – but I don’t.

    To fail to participate is NOT an intellectual failure – IT IS A MORAL FAILURE. All but the mentally handicapped are culpable for their moral choices, regardless of their intellect.

    So you’re really barking up the wrong tree with this constant accusation of eggheadery. If intellect is the requisite for voting, then we have no business with a democracy or even a republic – we need Plato’s philosopher king. But it isn’t. It is virtue, not intellect, that is the primary requisite for voting. It is a free choice made by individuals, and not innate abilities, that is responsible for this decision.

    Now, if you don’t get my clearly stated point this time, what else can I conclude other than that you’re making excuses for people’s civic sloth?

    ” if Broadway, Hollywood, Major League Baseball, the World Cup and the National Football League and college football took the rest of the year off, and everyone went to town hall meetings to resolve the various problems plaguing our country and world, the world would be a better place.”

    Language is key. I absolutely believe it would be a “better” place – I don’t think it would become a perfect place, a utopia with no problems. It might be a little bit better, it might be a whole lot better – participation isn’t the only thing that makes a society bad or good. But I’d submit that while it is not sufficient for a good society, it is necessary.

    If it WOULDN’T make society a better place, then it is nothing but a baby’s pacifier granted by the elites to their stupid pets, serving no actual good and right purpose. It would have no rational justification, even if it can be said that voting is, or is the result of, a natural right.

    Is there a rational justification for universal suffrage, or is it just a societal ornament? If there is a rational justification for it, then we can only conclude that a widespread failure to use that right is irrational.

    “I am an optimist. However, I am a realist as well. Some people just don’t care and some people who claim they care, just want to control others.”

    But this is all off the main point.

    Here’s my question to you – is it your view that invoking the drama of LeBron James will politically galvanize folks who otherwise wouldn’t pay attention to anything? They’ll make the transition from sports to politics this way?

    If that happens, and it works, I’ll eat my shoes with ketchup. In all seriousness, I’d be interested to know if that works, or if it ever has. If it has, I say, go with what works.

    ” What I meant was voting participation and membership in civic clubs, neighborhoood groups, school organizations etc.”

    Those are all good things in themselves. It is unfortunate that secular leftists would seem, if your claim is accurate, to have a leg up in that department, since the vision of the founders was for this to be a universal phenomenon.

    I also have no problem with Vermont. I like their gun laws more than I dislike Bernie Sanders. And I say, ultimately, that power belongs to those who take it. Within our political system, Christians have the means to become just as involved, and have their values just as represented. It is simply irrational for them to cede the arena to hostile forces.

    “What I am trying to say is that not everyone does what they should.”

    For goodness sakes, you say that as if it is novel. Who the heck argued otherwise?

    But does this fact somehow absolve us of a responsibility to proclaim the truth, to proclaim what ought to be done? Again, I am with Aristotle. There are two extremes – there is pie-in-the-sky idealism on the one hand, that says anything is possible and people are capable of anything. Then there is fatalism – the view that things are what they are and cannot be changed.

    The rational, position is genuine realism – understanding what can be changed, and what cannot be changed. Understanding what can be influenced, and what cannot. Understanding what your power is, and what the limit of that power is.

    Your view, to me, is closer to fatalism than realism. The Church proclaims that civic participation is a moral obligation. It doesn’t matter if “people don’t do what they should” – people shouldn’t have abortions either, but the Church will never cease to proclaim that it is wrong, and that they should choose life.

    So I will continue to proclaim, along with the Church, and in the spirit of the American founders, the importance of civic virtue and I will continue to denounce those influences that weaken and corrupt it.

    “Joe, I think we can agree that we should all be more involved in Church & State affairs. However, trying to tell people that sports and entertainment should be severely curtailed when so many of our saints and Holy Fathers were involved with both sounds a bit over the top.”

    This is your problem – I said no such thing. When did I say “severely curtailed”? This was a false inference, or, poor choice of words. A fallacy or a gaffe.

    I do not propose to infringe upon ANYONE’s right to be a lazy idiot. But I certainly do propose that we use our first amendment rights to remind people of their moral and civic obligations, and to denounce the garbage that obstructs them.

    Do you understand that it is possible to oppose a thing without violating another person’s right to that thing? If so, then we have no quarrel, sir.

  • Over on another blog I found a list of humorous Twitter responses to the LeBron James announcement…. among them was the following:

    “I wanted to announce my Second Coming at 9 p.m. tonite, but it looks like you all had other plans — Jesus Christ.”

  • LeBron James had every right to leave Cleveland. You talk about his “week-long ego charade” but that entire week LeBron said very little to the media. LeBron made no appearances on ESPN or any other network until his special. You’re blaming LeBron for the fact that everyone on TV was talking about him non-stop. Further more you failed to mention the fact that LeBron’s marketing firm agreed to only do the special if the sponsorship dollars would go to The Boys and Girls Club.

    The reason so many people have left the church isn’t because they want some razzle-dazzle experience when they go to church. No, it’s because of the fact that for the last sixty plus years a small portion of priests and clergy members have been raping and sexually exploiting children around the world. Every clergy member who ever abused a child and every church official who covered it up and didn’t report these people to the authorities should be thrown in jail. So before you start criticizing completely innocent and upstanding athletes clean up your church first.

  • Chris Russo, then how do you account for the fact that many fans are quick to forgive and forget the sins of the Kobe Bryants and Tiger Woods of the world rather than ditch them? I don’t see that happening for the priests who betray their flock, so that says a lot about the effect of pop culture’s alluring but false promises of fame and riches on society, especially those who build their homes on shifting sand rather than rocks. Perhaps LeBron may be like the Prodigal Son and find that his ego got the best of him.

    Thankfully there are many other priests to do us Catholics proud, including superstars like Archbishop Raymond Burke, who certainly wouldn’t pull a LeBron act despite the Creative Minority Report humorously imagining such a possibility: http://www.creativeminorityreport.com/search?q=LeBron

  • ESPN’s ombudsman vindicates Dave, blasting the network for its LeBron coverage: http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/post/ESPN-ombudsman-blasts-network-for-LeBron-coverag?urn=top-257681

Pope Benedict to be Deposed

Tuesday, June 29, AD 2010

The most evil inspired man in the world, attorney Jeffrey Anderson, plans to “sue the sh-t out of [the Catholic Church] everywhere”. Because the U.S. Supreme Court refused to hear an appeal from the Vatican, a court case will move forward allowing for the Vatican to be sued.

“I have known for 25 years that all roads lead to Rome,” said Jeff Anderson, the Minnesota attorney who represents the plaintiff. “This is the beginning for us of a new journey, a uniquely difficult odyssey.”

Anderson, who has represented hundreds of abuse victims and has tried for years to sue the Vatican, said he hoped to persuade a judge that he should be allowed to depose Vatican officials.

Continue reading...

23 Responses to Pope Benedict to be Deposed

  • The guy is a sad-ass low grade attorney seeking notoriety. It is obvious that he does not understand the structure of the Church. I have listened to him on radio, and sounds as he looks.

  • While the motive for this may be troubling, there simply must be accountability for actions taken by clerics, particularly when these actions are not in keeping with the teachings of the Catholic Church and the local ordinary has either refused to act or simply ignored serious accusations.

  • The ambulance chaser can hope all he wants to depose the Pope but it is never going to happen. I have been involved in litigation for 28 years in thousands of cases and I am quite familiar with how discovery in a civil case is performed. No judge in his right mind will approve the compelling of a head of a foreign state for a deposition, and no appellate court would uphold an order requiring such a deposition if a trial judge were crazy enough to issue such an order.

  • Whew!

    I thought you meant the Obama regime would invade the Vatican, remove the Pope, and replace with Dougie Kmiec.

    I’m been deposed a few times. It isn’t fun.

  • I understand the deposition of Pope Benedict is very slim, though I do want to shed light on this character for the simple reason that there are people out there that act as evil incarnate (the man isn’t evil, just that his actions are evil).

  • “Most evil man in the world?”

    I assume you are exaggerating for comic effect?

    I’m not sure this kind of hyperbole is a good idea when you are writing about anything remotely related to sex abuse cases. People who are angry because they’ve been wronged are following this story.

    I like this blog, but I continue to be disturbed by more than one contributor’s insistence on describing individual human beings with dehumanizing adjectives that ought better be applied to their behaviors.

  • Bearing,

    I appreciate your concern and your loyalty to this website.

    I assure you I don’t throw that term around casually. In fact, I can’t remember ever describing someone like that on TAC outside of Mr. Jeffrey Anderson [I changed one word in my post. No one is actually evil, though they can be inspired to act as such].

    But your point is duly taken. I agree about the hyperbole and I personally will be more prudent in my own postings.

  • So a Supreme Court that has a majority of Catholic justices allows the Vatican to be sued in the US?

    We live in strange times.

  • Mr. Smith,

    I have no idea what the merits of the case presented to the SCOTUS are or what the *right* decision would be, but I could understand if any or all the Catholic justices passed on hearing it. If that would be the right thing to do if the case was concerning the Prime Minister of England or Kim Jong-il it would be the right thing to regarding the Pope. I’m doubtful refusing to hear this case was the right thing to do, but I appreciate the integrity and sound thinking that five of the four Catholic Justices bring to the court and wouldn’t expect them to place personal loyalties before their integrity as jurists. That’s what sets them apart and why they’re right for the job.

  • So a Supreme Court that has a majority of Catholic justices allows the Vatican to be sued in the US?

    Even taking it that the decision was primarily the result of what the justices thought of the Church (rather than the merits of the case) that still leaves Anthony “the weather vane” Kennedy as the deciding vote, Catholic or not.

    Honestly, though, I’m quite unclear what a ruling like this means. The only instances I’m aware of in which people have sued foreign countries in US courts have been in reparation for terrorism or government property confiscation by the foreign government. Here we have someone trying to insist that the Vatican itself is responsible for whether or not priests were disciplined, removed from ministry, etc.

    It seems at least moderate unlikely that there’d be any merit found in an attempt to sue the Vatican. Any of the lawyers here able to fill us in a bit?

  • I would caution people not to read too much long term into this. THe reporting on this was pretty bad., Including that the Supreme Court “Confirmed” the lower court ruling. They did no such thing. The Supreme Court decides not to take cases for a whole bunch of reason and is foolhardy to try to divine those reasons.

    Mr Anderson has cases all the place as do other Lawyers. The Supreme Court could be waiting for all we know for their to be a split in the circuits till they take this matter up

  • FWIW, JH was referring to the AP article and not the TAC column.

  • That correct the AP coulmn that ran shortly after the order was released

  • My gut says that a deposition would be a good thing. I don’t think it will happen, but it would probably help if the world heard about the extent of Ratzinger’s/Benedict’s efforts against pedophilia.

  • Depositions don’t work like that Pinky. Consider the most savage cross examination in the world. That is what the Pope would be subjected to in a deposition.

  • There is a long road between suing the Vatican (whatever that means) and deposing the Pope. Big companies get sued all the time, yet their CEO’s and other top executives rarely get deposed.

  • Donald, we’re supposed to lay down our lives for the faith, even us laymen. Popes have often been called to martyrdom, as have more bishops than I could count. I wouldn’t wish Benedict to go through a tough deposition, but it’s part of the job. An onerous, prying public spectacle could actually turn people’s hearts back to confidence in the Church, and ultimately back to Christ.

  • “Donald, we’re supposed to lay down our lives for the faith, even us laymen. Popes have often been called to martyrdom, as have more bishops than I could count. I wouldn’t wish Benedict to go through a tough deposition, but it’s part of the job.”

    Martyrdom is one think Pinky, being made to look like a lying scumbag is another. A skillful attorney can make almost anyone look like a lying scumbag in a deposition.

  • An attorney of my acquaintance used to use the expression “You can sue the Pope for bastardry” as a way of saying that anyone could sue another person for any cause, no matter how ridiculous or improbable, if they could get an attorney to file the suit. Well, it appears that life is now imitating cliche.

  • This is not going to happen…just imagine, this lawyer who is really an ambulance chaser and who has said indicated he really wants to sue the Catholic Church…imagining all the money he will amass from such a lawsuit…now, the Pope refuses to come to the United States..what is this lawyer going to do? Send troops to the Vatican? Pope Benedict has done more than anyone to address this crisis of sexual abuse by member of the Catholic Church (who else has done anything like this in response to sexual abuse in other institutions?)…anyway, this lawyer fellow is in way over his head…and he is in not for the victims but to line his pockets … Jesus said right from the beginning that scandals would come but that His Church would last….

  • Wasn’t Pope Benedict, as Cardinal Ratzinger, head of the Congregation for the Faith, responsible for overseeing the Church’s tactical strategy toward sex abuse cases by priests? Wasn’t he an advocate of a “delay until the Statute of Limitations has expired” strategy? Joseph Ratzinger’s strategy was to obstruct justice all over the world. This man is a criminal and should be brought to justice…he should be tried, convicted and put in prison. There have been other corrupt popes in the Catholic Church but none in recent memory. This is a great sin at the highest levels of the Church.

  • Daishin,

    Unless you can provide proof that Papa Bene did what you claim, which of course he didn’t, then you will not be allowed to comment anymore on TAC.

  • Daishin,

    Your claims are almost exactly the opposite of the truth. Throughout most of the period of the scandals, these accusations did not fall under the control of the CDF. Ratzinger asked for that brief when the scandal blew up in the US, and once he got began personally going through the files. It was when his department took control that the cases really started moving in regards to discipline and helping the secular authorities pursue justice. Far from being an advocate of “delay until the Statute of Limitations has expired”, he pushed to get accusations into the open and to ignore the statue of limitations even where it applied.

Comedy Centrals Anti-Catholic Bigotry

Monday, June 28, AD 2010

Brent Bozell of NewsBusters documented Comedy Central’s attacks on the Catholic in a post this past Saturday that I’m reposting here.

It’s been two months since Comedy Central censored Mohammed out of their cartoon “South Park.” Even the utterance of the name was bleeped. The blog Revolution Muslim quoted the world’s most notorious terrorist as an inspirational figure. “As Osama bin Laden said with regard to the cartoons of Denmark, ‘If there is no check in the freedom of your words, then let your hearts be open to the freedom of our actions.’”

But there has been no ceasefire in Comedy Central’s war on Christianity. The attacks on Catholic Americans just keep coming. On “The Daily Show” on June 17, fake correspondent Samantha Bee interviewed two priests and two nuns who are watchdogging Goldman Sachs for a liberal interfaith group.

Jon Stewart started the Catholic-bashing in his introduction: “Sometimes it’s easy to spot the villain in a story. Sometimes it’s not.”

Continue reading...

9 Responses to Comedy Centrals Anti-Catholic Bigotry

Under the Roman Sky

Monday, June 21, AD 2010

A new film, Under the Roman Sky, starring James Cromwell as Pius XII, details the heroic efforts of Pius XII to save the Jews of Rome from the Nazis, after Rome came under Nazi occupation subsequent to the fall of Mussolini following the Allied invasion of southern Italy in 1943.

Rabbi David G. Dalin, in his review of a Moral Reckoning, a tome by Daniel Goldhagen which sought to blame Catholicism for the Holocaust, details the efforts of the Pope to save the Jews of Rome:

Goldhagen’s centerpiece is the outrageous allegation that Pius XII “did not lift a finger to forfend the deportations of the Jews of Rome” or of other parts of Italy “by instructing his priests and nuns to give the hunted Jewish men, women and children sanctuary.”  Much of this is lifted straight from anti-Pius books like Susan Zuccotti’s Under His Very Windows–and thus Goldhagen repeats the errors of those books and adds extras, all his own, in his determined attempt to extend their thesis into over-the-top railings against the sheer existence of Catholicism.

Continue reading...

4 Responses to Under the Roman Sky

  • I may be wrong. I think Goldhagen’s and Zuccotti’s fictionalizations would be classified “calumny” and “detraction.”

  • I believe too much attention is paid to the books attacking Pius XII. Goldhagen has lied; Cornwall has lied. They are like weeds in the garden, impossible to eradicate completely. One can but let them be treated as Our Lord recommends we treat chaff. We have better things to do.

  • “We have better things to do.”

    Whatever the situation there are usually better things to do. However, responding to calumnies of this degree against Pius XII is an important thing to do. People will believe this rot unless Catholics respond with the truth, loudly, clearly and frequently.

  • Pingback: Last Weeks Top-Ten Catholic Posts « The American Catholic

Attention Las Vegas Catholics

Sunday, June 20, AD 2010

This is a request for assistance from our readers to suggest a good parish inside the Diocese of Las Vegas for my family.

What I am asking in particular is a parish that has an orthodox priest that celebrates the Mass reverently.  That is not asking much.  Preferably a holy and charitable priest.

To be more specific, though this isn’t necessary, it would be nice if the architecture of the church did not resemble a Brady Bunch-1970s style of a building.  Again, preferably, a church with pre-Vatican II type of architecture.

What do I mean by reverently?

Continue reading...

24 Responses to Attention Las Vegas Catholics

  • Not a recommendation, but a question: At my parish, priests are rotated in and out every few years. So, if that’s true in Las Vegas and today you pick a parish with priests to your liking, isn’t the lineup just going to change before long?

  • Spambot, yes, but where are these good priests presently? I know there are good parishes in Las Vegas, just where are they is my question.

  • What do I mean by orthodox?

    If we want to get technical in our orthdoxy and tradition, then the proper parish is the one whose territorial boundaries encompass your home. THAT is the proper parish according to canon law and consistent with the teachings of the Magisterium.

    The practice of parish shopping, while widespread post-Vatican II, is one contrary to tradition, which has long followed the idea of the neighborhood parish. This is also more consistent with the truth that we are One Church, not an alliance of separate churchs and congregations, and that the Lord Himself is present, Body and Blood, at each of these parishes.

    We may not particularly like the members of our family — but they are family. We may not like their music, we may not like their architecture, we may not like their wishy-washy homilies, but they are family.

  • I’m sure Jesus wouldn’t mind if my family were to attend a different parish rather from the one that has led many into apathy.

    But your argument is a straw man.

    I’d like to know a good parish to recommend to my parents.

    I’d rather not debate your issues with canon law.

  • I’ve also been persuaded by orthodoxy (read: right opinion on this particular issue. Catholics should attend a church within their parish, that is near the physical land on which they live. Jesus is in every Catholic Church, even the ugly ones. And perhaps the ugly churches (physically or spiritually ugly) need orthodox Catholics more than anywhere else. We are all called to evangelize, and sometimes evangelization happens at our own parish! Orthodox Catholics cannot sequester themselves off from the rest of the Church at parishes with good priests and good liturgy.

    Also this is a great way for Catholics to recover a sense of place, something that has been totally lost in hyper-mobile 21st century America.

    We do not pick and choose our Churches as Catholics. It’s a protestant attitude and bad practice for members of a universal Church.

  • Zach,

    Thank you for continuing to distract from my post.

    How can certain family members be evangelized if they are receiving incorrect teachings?

    Keep up the distraction.

    //sarcasm end

  • As far as I can find in Las Vegas there are only 2 pre Vatican II style church buildings. One is St. Joan of Arch in the downtown area. I have been there a couple of times for evening non-Sunday mass. I did not find any major problems.

    The second is St. Joseph, Husband of Mary. It is a rather new building but it is beautifuly done inside and out. An intresting mix of old and new on the inside. I have not attended mass there. It is on Saharra Av.between Rainbow Bl. and Buffalo.

    Another choice is a new styled church is St. Bridget on 14th street just west of downtown. For a modern building it OK. The Tabernacle is smack in the middle of the sancatuary. The 9:30 am Sunday mass is a Hybred Latin and English Mass. Very well said by Fr. Leo the congreation is very reserved and reverant.

    I have been to this mass on several occasions.

    St. Bridget aslo hosts the only Authorized TLM in southern Nevada. It is only on the first Friday of the Month. I was there for this mass in June 2010.

    Do not be fooled by “St.Joseph Catholic Church” on the east side of downtown Las Vegas it is “Old Catholic” and not in union with Rome.

    If you want to broaden your catholic expierence. Las Vegas has four Eastern Rite Catholic parishes, all in union with Rome.

    Our Lady of Wisdom Italo-Byzantine, Lindell and O’bannon. My home parish when I am in residence in Las Vegas.

    St. Barbara Chaldean Parish Near the Meadows Mall. This is quite a diffrent expierence very reverant.
    Upon entry via the center aisle the priest bow at 3 diffrent places before entering the sancatuary, prostrates himself before the eucharist. The liturgy is mostly in Chaldean or Arabic. A good Expierence.

    St.Sharbel Maronite several miles south of downtown and about a mile east of the South Point Hotel. Somewhat like the Novus Ordo in its presentation but with more prayers and added rituals to the Liturgy.
    another good expeirence. They have an English Mass and an Arabic Mass.

    St. Gabriel the Archangel Ruthenian-Byzantine,2250 Maule ave., just south of McCarren airport. I have not been there. I have attended other Ruthenian Parishes. Another good venture. the Liturug is in English.

    I hope these selections help you out.

  • I was once told, by a priest knowledgeable about canon law, that nothing in Church law forbids a person from holding membership in more than one parish. You can hold membership in your territorial neighborhood parish AND also enroll in another parish if there is good reason to do so — for example, if that parish has a school in which you want to enroll your children, if it has priests who speak your native language, or if it has liturgies of a different rite (including TLM) that are not available at your “home” parish. If you belong to more than one parish, of course, you have a certain obligation to support both, financially and by your attendance.

  • John R.,

    It doesn’t necessarily have to be pre-Vatican II type of architecture.

    What’s important is a good and holy priest.

    And thanks for the recommendations.

    The eastern rites are awesome.

    Saint Joseph, Husband of Mary, was my old parish. It has since gone off the deep end and are heretical.

    Part of the reason for this posting.

    Thanks for all the suggestions!

  • I’m a 19 year old who lives in Spokane, WA. But I use to live in Las Vegas when I was a kid for about 10 years. From my experience, I would recommand St. Joseph, Husband of Mary.
    As John Rondina posted, “It is a rather new building but it is beautifuly done inside and out. An intresting mix of old and new on the inside.”
    All the priests that I use to know when I attended to that Church were simple, orthodox Catholics who always pledged their obedience to the decrees of the Apostolic See. However, I do not know what the new priests are like now.
    But I say give it a try with my beloved Church. I do miss going there every Sunday.
    Also, I ask many of you to please pray for me as I will be entering the Seminary soon. I pray that I will be studying under the guidance and leader of His Excellency, Bishop Robert Vasa from the Diocese of Baker, Oregon.
    May our Heavenly Father continue to bless all of you and the U.S. Constitution

  • Andrew R.,

    Sadly that church isn’t what it used to be.

  • Tito:

    I tend to agree with the ones who questioned whether or not this was a good idea. Parish-shopping isn’t a great thing, especially when you’re picking churches in part based on architecture. Screwtape #16 has a lot to say on this-

    I had more typed, but I decided this would make a good post to kick off the week with. 😉

  • To Tito Edwards:
    It breaks my heart that many Catholic Americans are drifting away from the teachings of the Catholic Church, especially from the decrees of the Holy See.

    Praying the Rosary always facilitates the situations that any Catholic faces in life. Hopefully our Blessed Mother will guide us to Her Son and comfort us when we need to be comforted.

    I look forward to your response, Tito. God Bless

  • Michael D.,

    Apparently you chose to ignore what I have, and others, previously posted.

    The sheep need to be fed, not to be talked down to like you and your cohorts have done.

  • Ypu might got To Francis Beckwith’s place (Return to ROme) and ask him in the comments. He is from Vegas and of course still has family there.

  • I highly recommend St. Elizabeth Ann Seton parish in the Summerlin area of Las Vegas. I have also heard good things about St. Francis in Henderson, Nevada, which is the largest city adjacent to Las Vegas. The latter can be found here: http://www.sfahdnv.org/ The former here: http://www.parishesonline.com/scripts/hostedsites/Org.asp?ID=6911

    Whenever we are in Vegas–which is often–my wife and I attend the 4 pm Saturday Vigil mass at St. Elizabeth Ann Seton. We do so because it has a solid pastor and it is literally across the street from my sister-in-law’s home, where we stay when we are in Vegas.

  • Francis,

    Thank you for those recommendations.

    I truly appreciate the suggestions and will be visiting all of them when I visit my family and bring them along.

    In a nutshell, if the pastor is solid, then the parish will follow.

  • Tito, I do not understand my comment to be a distraction. I think it’s a direct response to what you are talking about here.

    I don’t appreciate your sarcasm or you ignoring it, though.

  • Pingback: Parish-Shopping « The American Catholic
  • Regarding St Joseph Husband of Mary – you may be able to avoid liturgical abuse there, but you are not getting any chant! Fr Marc is not a fan of it. You get a lot of Protestant hymns. Bleh!

    Your best bet for a reverently celebrated Mass is St Bridgets 9:30am Mass. Even though they dont have a choir (which is by choice – my chant group offered and were turned down) the congregation chants. Communion has a recording of chant.

    St Francis used to be pretty solid. But is no longer, ever since Fr Greg left.

    Dont personally know about St Elizabeth Ann Seton but I have heard good things.

    A decent parish is hard to find. Half the churches here qualify as protestant. Sad. Stay away from Christ the King Parish – they have liturgical dance! I still do not understand why the Bishop refuses to crack down on them!

  • Forgot to mention St Brigets 9:30 Mass is Novus Ordo in Latin

  • Tito,

    It’s ironic to me that you would indicate that you are interested in finding a parish in Las Vegas that has a good and holy priest at a parish that adheres to the Magisterium; yet you seem to discourage a 19-year-old (Andrew Ridgley) who tells you that he will be entering the seminary. Instead of offering encouragement for his holy vocation (especialy during this time of a shortage of priests), you tell him that the church isn’t what it used to be. To add insult to injury, you don’t even reply to him when he says that he is looking forward to hearing back from you. Honestly, I don’t get your thinking.

    My family has lived in Las Vegas for many years. I don’t live there now, but I go back to visit regularly. Growing up there, I attended Catholic elementary and high schools. When I began reading your post, I understood your reason for asking for input from others. However, I have to say that you lost me after I read your response to Andrew. Thanks be to God, Andrew sounds like someone who will not be easily dissuaded. I will pray for him, and others like him.

  • I think you misread what I said.

One Response to Catholic-Orthodox Reunion Baby Steps

  • This is great! The first step is the hardest. While this is a baby step it is a big deal in the unification process between Catholics and our Orthodox brothers and sisters in Christ.

25 Responses to Why I am Filing for Separation from the Democratic Party

  • Welcome to the world of independent idealism. Good to have you on board. It’s still (maybe especially) possible to be a good citizen being off the party rolls. I encourage the strategy.

  • I know exactly how you feel. I live in Washington DC, where it’s all politics, all the time. For a few years now I’ve answered the question “Are you a Republican (Democrat)?” with “I’m a Catholic.”

  • I simply must repeat what I said when you mentioned this to me privately — this is a great loss for pro-life Democrats, but God as you seem to have discerned may need your gifts and talents elsewhere for the sake of His Kingdom and, temporally speaking, for the common good.

    I need not ask to know whether I still have your support and you need not ask if you have mine. Have faith, there are sincere pro-life Catholics in the trenches my friend. You have simply chosen a new battlefield; there is only one Enemy.

  • Congratulations to you, and welcome aboard, Tim! But one question: am I completely imagining this, or didn’t you announce/decide this a couple of months ago? I thought I remembered reading a post you had written to that effect, but without all of the outlines for an independent party based on Catholic moral teaching and the Natural Law.

  • What’s wrong with the US Constitution Party?

    It’s platform is the closest to Chrcuh teaching:

    http://www.constitutionparty.com/party_platform.php

    I understand, however, that it doesn’t fit the false gospel of the common good, social justice and peace at any price.

    It seems like the writer just wants a socialist party that can call itself pro-life and be Christian in name instead of advocating for a return to the truly Christian Constitutional Republic we once were.

    Why not read and study what this country was founded at insteda of trying to invent some socialist utopia. The common good didn’t work for the Church in the time of Ananias and Sapphira. It won’t work now. And I (along with many, many other Constitutionalists) shall never, ever support it.

  • Paul, it is quite arrogant to assert that people whose views are different than yours and do not think that the U.S. Constitution Party is the closest reflection of Catholic social teaching in the U.S. are merely socialists who want a “socialist party.”

    I think it is an unfair judgment of our Catholicism and our commitment to the teachings of the Church, which requires on some issues much prudential judgment that naturally creates a discussion — and not clear-cut policy positions or views we must embrace.

    Moreover the idea that the United States was ever “truly” an explicitly “Christian” constitutional republic is quite arguable. I find it hard to believe that an authentically Christian society had legal slavery rooted in irrational hate of ethnicity; other points could be made, but I think you are romanticizing history and my argument need not be taken as saying the current situation of America is better or superior but simply that the U.S. was never a “truly Christian constitutional republic” in the sense that you seem to suggest.

    Lastly the idea that people who fail to subscribe to what you have suggested have neglected to “read and study what this country” was founded on “instead of trying to invent some socialist utopia” is nonsense.

    I was not even aware that any sort of disagreement (at least it seems that way in the way you frame your argument, there appear to be only two options) with the position you offer logically implies subscription to socialism. Moreover, it is nonsensical for you to appeal to Catholic social teaching — from Leo XIII to Benedict XVI — and say that the “common good” does not work.

    It would be more credible to argue that what the political left, by and large, presents as the common good is (in your view) a pseudo-common good and the actual common good is something much different — and you could detail it with what you think would work better. But to say the common good “did not work” and will not “work now” while appealing to Catholic social teaching where that very concept is integral to the whole body of the Church’s social doctrine is unbelievably dubious. Honestly, I am not saying this to be harsh; it simply is the case.

    I suppose it is a way to look at things but it is a perspective that I would never, ever support. The political left often gets attacked for claiming to have the correct political translation of Christian values in action and I, to a considerably large degree, can concur that in the current political situation criticism is very warranted. But the political right in the GOP and in my view in conservative third parties, at present, in my view, cannot lay claim to Christian values in their entirety. Many questions are again prudential and need not be dogmaticized — perhaps it is time that we Catholics, particularly those of who choose a specific political avenue or entity, whether it be a party or some other organization, stop trying to box the Church’s teaching into acceptable political language and contrived concepts that derive primarily from secular schools of thought. It is telling when what we call “Catholic social teaching” begins to look conveniently like our party’s platform. Indeed, the Gospel easily transcends all these things.

  • Eric- thanks for your eloquent defense and support- Kevin in Texas- I have been hinting at such a move but I retained my position as vp of florida dems for life until this week- my good friend at the organization- a Catholic- had asked me to take some more time before I made a formal decision- out of respect for this great friend, I decided to wait, pray and see if the Spirit would reveal more- at this point, I really feel that being a non-partisan will be advantageous as a Catholic teacher and in trying to open channels of dialogue working on specific issues rather than risk being written off as a Democratic Party operative or Republican mole inside the Dem party. This decision just feels like a spiritual breath of fresh air- something rare in the political trenches:)

  • Tim,
    Blessings… I too left the party of my youth, however, I came from the opposite side and have landed at Independent as well.
    Eric,
    Wonderful defense.
    Peace

  • Tim,

    Interesting post. It reads to me like you are not rejecting the Democratic party so much as you are rejecting politics per se. I think this is OK; not every Catholic is meant to act in the political sphere. But I do not think such a position can be normative. It is part of the lay vocation to transform our politics from within, and to the extent that you did this as a pro-life Democrat it was a good thing.

    I think generally speaking it is good for Catholics to consider themselves unwedded to any political party. Catholics are wedded to the truth and must understand themselves as Catholics first and then Republicans or Democrats. A Catholic can be a Republican or a Democrat, but they must be a Catholic first.

    Although I’m not thrilled that there is yet another good person giving up on American politics, I am happy to hear that someone is leaving the Democratic party, which in my opinion is virtually unsalvagable. The Democratic party is in principle the party of death.

  • Eric,

    “I find it hard to believe that an authentically Christian society had legal slavery rooted in irrational hate of ethnicity;”

    Slavery had nothing to do with “hate” as we think of it today. It was certainly based in an erroneous view of race, but it was no more hateful in 1788 than it was in 300 B.C. or so when Aristotle was justifying slavery. It was seen as a part of the natural order.

    A lot of the founding fathers, like Thomas Jefferson, struggled with the issue. So, avoid blanket condemnations in the other direction. The northern states abolished slavery right from the beginning. The southern states had “rational” economic reasons for wanting to keep it – but “rational” does not = morally right.

  • The democrat and republican parties are not the same.

    If more people voted for McCain, we’d have a chance overturning Roe v Wade with the nomimation of more good supreme court justices like Roberts and Alito, but no, we get Sotomaer and Kagan.

    Thanks alot 54% Catholics who voted for Obama or Indepedants! Like you really care about the unborn…rightttt.

    A Catholic with a well formed conscience can not in any way vote for the party of death.

  • Zach- I don’t think you are reading me correctly- I’m not giving up on American politics- I am just backing out of the Democratic party since I could not find any traction for pro-life Dems in my geographic area- I tried through offering a viable candidacy and having a presence in the local media and making contact attempts- but it didn’t happen. I decided it was best for me to purify my own end of things and come clean as an Independent who will work with partisans on the various issues of importance- but will be a non-partisan about it. In a way I am following the lead of Archbishop Chaput who was once one who identified more closely with the philosophy of governance represented by the Democratic Party, but because of the emergence of social liberalism and hardcore secularism in the heart of Democratic Party activism- he has chosen the Independent political path- and since I am a Catholic teacher myself, I think it is prudent to stake out non-partisan territory myself- not to avoid the political fight over the important issues of our times, but to be taken more seriously and to be seen as more consistent than those who seem to allow their Party loyalties to determine their political consciences. We’ll see if this decision makes sense over the longer haul- I am a Catholic first- that is my core message in all this.

  • I pray a lot and the Holy Spirit reveals a lot to me.

    When he talks to me, he starts with “Shaw, love humility, live the Gospels, obey the Ten Commandments, and adhere to the teachings of Holy Mother Church handed down from The Apostles and today from the Pope.”

    He revealed to me “Shaw, you can’t be both a democrat and be pro-life.” And, “You won’t be getting into Heaven if you vote democratic.”

    Early in 2008, this Pope gave four non-negotiables. Despicable dems are 180 degrees, and violently (47,000,000 exterminated unborn), opposed to each and every one.

  • I agree with Jasper and I’m ashamed of being a (cradle) Catholic these days, when 54% of them voted for Barack Obama, a pro-abortion and pro-infanticide politician. As a matter of fact, the Democratic Party has become the party where the Culture of Death has taken hold, and I’m glad I abandoned them over 10 years ago.

    Jasper is correct in that with the GOP, at least we got two solid, pro life, conservative Supreme Court Justices, but with Obama, we’re getting rabidly pro-abortion ones. Way to go, my brothers and sisters in the Church. Next time, please use the God-give reason you were born with and LEARN the candidates’ record on abortion!

  • Paul – Pope Benedict doesn’t agree with you

    Pope calls for ethics in world economy

    “Benedict said the search for common good must inform globalization and be the goal of progress and development, which would otherwise merely serve to produce material goods.”

    http://tinyurl.com/29d528y

  • Non-partisan? Transpartisan?

    I think there’s room for a Christian-Democratic political and social presence in the United States, and it can grow if it plays by the populist playbook, particularly the experience of the Non-Partisan League.

    Perhaps you can take the whole matter up with Oscar De Rojas? I have a hunch he has an interesting perspective on this whole thing.

  • Putting one’s faith in a political party will inevitably lead a sincere Catholic to a sense of disillusionment with politics in general. However, as a means to an end, parties may be used as an imprecise apparatus and like an imprecise apparatus they more often than not accomplish the task with less success than we would like.

    I have yet to see a practical way out of the 2 party system we have in the US that does not, as a by-product, result in one party dominance, after the other party fractures it’s base.

  • Dear Mr. Shipe,
    I was very touched by, and sympathized with, your declaration. I would like you to know that a group of citizens are forming a new centrist political party: The Christian Democratic Union of the United States (CDUSA). We are in the process of redesigning our webpage, but please use my address for any additional communication or request for information. We invite you to please advise us and be in touch with us.

    Our basic political philosophy is quite straight-forward: we are “center-left” (i.e., agree with many Democratic party positions) on most economic and political issues, while we are “center-right (i.e., agree with many Republican party positions)on most social and cultural issues. We are, essentially, the OPPOSITE of what libertarians and Tea-Party groups stand for. Indeed, we reject the labels of “liberal” or “conservative”, because these can have different meanings, depending on what standpoint you look from.
    We do hope to hear from you and your friends, and, in the meantime, remain, sincerely yours,
    Oscar de Rojas
    Executive Director
    Christian Democratic Union of the United States

  • “We are, essentially, the OPPOSITE of what libertarians and Tea-Party groups stand for.”

    That’s unfortunate. Are you sure you know what they stand for?

  • we are “center-left” (i.e., agree with many Democratic party positions) on most economic and political issues, while we are “center-right (i.e., agree with many Republican party positions)on most social and cultural issues.

    That sounds agreeable as stated. The difficulty is that ‘center-left’ on economic matters (at this time and in this country) means the continuous multiplication of patron-client relations between politicians and lobbies, in which the politician is a broker who supplies constituency groups with the fruits of the state’s extractive capacity in return for the fruits of the constituencies’ fundraising, labor, and brand-loyalty. You could call it crony capitalism, but the beneficiaries are not merely favored business sectors but also the social work industry and the public sector unions and provincial and municipal politicians. Call it crony capitalism, crony philanthropy, crony syndicalism, and patronage.

    That’s unfortunate. Are you sure you know what they stand for?

    Joe, it is somewhat disconcerting that ‘TEA’ is an acronym for ‘Taxed Enough Already’. The focus should be on the ways in which the public sector might be circumscribed. Once you have come to an understanding of the appropriate boundary of the public sector, the tax rate is implicit. Complaints about taxation per se enhance the stupidity of the political culture. One can address complaints about tax rates by reducing them, but without a willingness to circumscribe the public sector, you just get deficits. The federal government’s statement of income was in far more parlous shape when Mr. Obama took office than was the case when Mr. Reagan took office, so we no longer have the margin for an extended game of let’s pretend.

  • Thank you for the interesting comments.

    What I mean by center-left in the economic area is that we do believe in a necessary and appropriate level of government regulation of the “free market” to avoid situations of abuse such, as for example, the financial disaster that we still have not gotten out of. And, yes, we are for more progressive taxation — meaning taxing the really reach -not the middle class, certainly not the poor- to further the common good.

    The fact that there is so much cronyism, lobbying, corruption etc. in the political system is somehting that we clearly have to tackle with, but hopefully, with a more just society, these things might also become more repugnant and begin to change.

  • Art,

    Give the people a break.

    “The focus should be on the ways in which the public sector might be circumscribed.”

    There is plenty of focus on that. If you don’t know it, you haven’t interacted with the people in the movement.

    “Complaints about taxation per se enhance the stupidity of the political culture.”

    No they don’t. Statements like this just reveal the extent to which you aren’t affected by taxes. You realize that over half of the tea party is made up of one of the most unjustly-taxed brackets of income earners in America, right? We’re talking people who make somewhere between 50 and 100 thousand or so a year. They pay through the nose.

    “One can address complaints about tax rates by reducing them, but without a willingness to circumscribe the public sector, you just get deficits.”

    Why would you assume this willingness isn’t there? It is.

    “The federal government’s statement of income was in far more parlous shape when Mr. Obama took office than was the case when Mr. Reagan took office, so we no longer have the margin for an extended game of let’s pretend.”

    Again, if you don’t think the tea party acknowledges and address this, you’re really quite out of the loop. Fiscal responsibility, dealing with the debt, stopping the spending and related issues are probably more important to it than the tax rates, I would say.

  • And, yes, we are for more progressive taxation — meaning taxing the really reach -not the middle class, certainly not the poor- to further the common good.

    Um, if, by ‘the rich’, you mean a class of rentiers or latent rentiers (along with senior corporation executives), I think you will find on inspection that you are speaking of around 2.5% of the population who corral about 15% of the nation’s personal income.

    If, by the poor, you mean individuals whose wage and private pension income (w/ salaries or proprietor’s income or annuities in some few cases) is below the cost of a basket of staple commodities as calculated by federal statistical agencies, that would be perhaps 20-25% of the population who corral about 4% or so of personal income.

    The ‘middle class’ (salaried employees and small proprietors) corral north of 45% of personal income and the more prosperous wage earners corral the balance of roughly 35%. You are not going to tax any of these people? Do you plan to finance the state with lotteries?

  • My comments were not derived from my personal fiscal situation (which does include considerable tax liability, though that is none of your business).

    Federal and state income tax codes are so rococo that it is simply impossible (with any degree of thoroughness) to say from descriptive statistics which strata are being ‘unjustly taxed’ and which are not.

    I did not name the ‘Tea Party’. I am not sure to whom the moniker is attributable. It does make me anxious, however.

    I am pleased if you can find a generous slice from among the miscellany of people who are protesting who are thinking seriously about the ways in which the public sector can and should be circumscribed. Any movement has quite a mix as regards its degree of sophistication and seriousness.

    I was a witness to the political discourse engaged in by Mr. Reagan and his acolytes during the period running from about 1978 to 1989. It is not a happy precedent and is one I hope the Republic can avoid. In general, it has not been my observation that an understanding of the relative size of the public sector and the distribution of expenditures between various categories thereof is (in schematic outline) well understood even among the quarter or so of the population who follow public affairs. If there are many counter-examples in the Tea Party, that is all to the good.

  • Tim –

    I’ve also thought about a party based on Catholic Social Teaching principles that could go by the name “The Common Good Party” – which has the great benefit of being shortened simply to the Good Party, with a membership of Good People.

    I’m not nearly as politically astute or experienced as you (or Oscar) though, and very much look forward to your thoughts on how practically to develop such a political force.

    If you want/need any help from the Pacific Northwest, do let me know, and I’ll do what I can!

A Papal Audience in Autumn 1941

Sunday, May 9, AD 2010

Venerable Pius XII always believed that it was part of his duties as Pope to be accessible to virtually everyone who wished to see him.  His audiences would normally be crowded as a result.  In the autumn of 1941 he held an audience which was no different.  Italians, pilgrims of all nations, German soldiers (German soldiers flocked to see the Pope until the Nazis forbade such visits, fearing the influence the words of the Pope, in direct contradiction to the doctrines of National Socialism,  might have on the Landsers.), humanity from across the globe, all eager to see, and perhaps have a word with, the Vicar of Christ on Earth.

Continue reading...

6 Responses to A Papal Audience in Autumn 1941

The words of the Pope on "Earth Day"

Thursday, April 22, AD 2010

I don’t have much patience for “Earth Day” b/c it’s a made-up (holi?)day. I tried to avoid wearing green today and decided to take the day to announce that my wife & I are expecting to add to the environmentalists’ fear of overpopulation.

But environmentalism matters; we can’t be distracted by the sappy appeals to Mother Earth. Care for the environment is an important aspect of the faith as the Holy Father tells us:

51. The way humanity treats the environment influences the way it treats itself, and vice versa. This invites contemporary society to a serious review of its life-style, which, in many parts of the world, is prone to hedonism and consumerism, regardless of their harmful consequences[122]. What is needed is an effective shift in mentality which can lead to the adoption of new life-styles “in which the quest for truth, beauty, goodness and communion with others for the sake of common growth are the factors which determine consumer choices, savings and investments”[123]. Every violation of solidarity and civic friendship harms the environment, just as environmental deterioration in turn upsets relations in society. Nature, especially in our time, is so integrated into the dynamics of society and culture that by now it hardly constitutes an independent variable. Desertification and the decline in productivity in some agricultural areas are also the result of impoverishment and underdevelopment among their inhabitants. When incentives are offered for their economic and cultural development, nature itself is protected. Moreover, how many natural resources are squandered by wars! Peace in and among peoples would also provide greater protection for nature. The hoarding of resources, especially water, can generate serious conflicts among the peoples involved. Peaceful agreement about the use of resources can protect nature and, at the same time, the well-being of the societies concerned.

The Church has a responsibility towards creation and she must assert this responsibility in the public sphere. In so doing, she must defend not only earth, water and air as gifts of creation that belong to everyone. She must above all protect mankind from self-destruction. There is need for what might be called a human ecology, correctly understood. The deterioration of nature is in fact closely connected to the culture that shapes human coexistence: when “human ecology”[124] is respected within society, environmental ecology also benefits. Just as human virtues are interrelated, such that the weakening of one places others at risk, so the ecological system is based on respect for a plan that affects both the health of society and its good relationship with nature.

In order to protect nature, it is not enough to intervene with economic incentives or deterrents; not even an apposite education is sufficient. These are important steps, but the decisive issue is the overall moral tenor of society. If there is a lack of respect for the right to life and to a natural death, if human conception, gestation and birth are made artificial, if human embryos are sacrificed to research, the conscience of society ends up losing the concept of human ecology and, along with it, that of environmental ecology. It is contradictory to insist that future generations respect the natural environment when our educational systems and laws do not help them to respect themselves. The book of nature is one and indivisible: it takes in not only the environment but also life, sexuality, marriage, the family, social relations: in a word, integral human development. Our duties towards the environment are linked to our duties towards the human person, considered in himself and in relation to others. It would be wrong to uphold one set of duties while trampling on the other. Herein lies a grave contradiction in our mentality and practice today: one which demeans the person, disrupts the environment and damages society.

Not wasting resources has nothing to do with saving “Mother Earth” but rather everything to do with forming ourselves to not be dependent on material things and preserving things for others (both the poor of our generation and the future generations). In this, we are better formed to protect human dignity.

This shows just how detrimental it is for environmentalists to be pushing abortion & contraception to solve overpopulation; by teaching lack of respect for human dignity and selfishness, they are promoting the very behaviors that contribute to environmental damage.

So on “Earth Day” let us as Catholics reaffirm the Church’s holistic and inseparable teachings on human dignity and the environment.

Continue reading...

17 Responses to The words of the Pope on "Earth Day"

  • Congratulations to you and your wife. May you upset environmentalists on many more occasions.

  • Congrats, Michael! That’s awesome news!

    May the pitter-patter of many little carbon footprints pollute your household for many years to come.

  • Not wasting resources has nothing to do with saving “Mother Earth” but rather everything to do with forming ourselves to not be dependent on material things and preserving things for others

    Well, what you said after the but is actually in union with what you said before it; by working to preserve things for others is to preserve Mother Earth, so she can nourish us in the future.

  • Congratulations Michael!

  • Congratulations, Michael.

  • Thanks everyone! I appreciate it!

    I don’t want the thread to entirely devolve into giving me congratulations; did anyone have any thoughts about the pope’s words?

  • HK:

    I disagree. I think “saving Mother Earth” suggests that the Earth is some end in itself (which is how the pagans view “Mother Earth;” see Avatar) whereas the popes see protecting the environment as means to promoting virtue and glorifying God. That’s an important distinction, as I think the idea of virtue is sorely lacking in the environmental approach today, which is more of a corporate sales pitch then a true desire to sacrifice ones desires for the good of others.

  • Michael Denton

    I am not surprised you disagree — but it is not because of a Christian sentiment, but through a post-Christian positivistic demythologized cultural criticism that you offer what you just said. Christendom knows Mother Earth. Positivism does not.

    Now, a few comments.

    The Church teaches about the salvation of the world, that God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son for it. The world groaned for salvation. You would do well to stop promoting a Gnostic rejection of the world (it is a heresy) and to study Church teaching on the salvation of the earth.

    And this then goes to your “suggests that the Earth is some end in itself.” Well, what if it does? It is an end in itself in the same way as the salvation of the body means the body is an end in itself. In the same way. Which is again how your argument reads very Gnostic.

    Now, your claim about pagans — I will say, which pagans are you talking about? What exactly did the pagans say, what did they do? And what is it about what they did which is against Church teaching?

    It’s funny and sad to see how your response reads just like a Protestant speaking against the saints. They talk about how Catholics make the saints ends in themselves, and how they are just like the pagan gods and goddesses.

    Of course there are many problems with this argument. One: even if they are similar, so what? As C.S. Lewis pointed out, the pagan desires are manifested and fulfilled in Christianity, and so we should expect the similarities. Second, learn the difference between relative and absolute, because this will deal well with your “ends” argument and is related to worship of the saints, where there is absolute and relative worship, absolute to God, relative to the saints. Just as wit this worship, “There is here no confusion or danger of idolatry, for this worship is subordinate or dependent,” so there is no idolatry of the earth when we recognize Mother Earth’s good and salvation, its good, as all goods (including our own salvation) is subordinate and dependent upon the Good.

  • Michael- I just gave my class a Catholic Earth Day lecture- in essence I compared the 7 themes of Catholic social teaching to receiving 7 gifts at Christmas from your parents- the first gift is the biggest/most expensive and personally desired and you lavish thanks on your parents and you treat that gift so well and tenderly- this is like the first theme of pro-life respecting the life and dignity of all human persons. Now by the time you get to the 7th gift and you open it and it isn’t something nearly as exciting as the first and you decide to not even thank your parents, you may even just leave it without a thought- it isn’t all that expensive you think- so who cares? Now this gift to me is like the Care for God’s Creation- the birds, the trees, the waterways, the air- all of it is not even close to being as precious to me as the gift of any one of my children- but still.. this gift matters- it cost something- it comes from Someone who loves us- it is part of what is intended for us- how can I not show gratitude for the littlest of gifts- and I drew out another comparison-

    I told my class that you could offer me a trillion trillion dollars and I wouldn’t take it if the cost was giving one of my children away for some stranger to just take off with- in fact I wouldn’t take the money even if all someone wanted to do was punch one of my kids in the face. That’s love- God’s love flowing through me- but my kids also go outside they breathe the air, they play in the ocean, they eat food from the soil and eat animals from slaughter houses- do you think that I am so dense that I don’t have a lot of thoughts about what they are taking in via the Environment? You better believe I do- I don’t blow off environmental concerns- I don’t necessarily buy into every article of environmentalist alarmism, but I am very interested, I don’t blow these things off with flippant remarks- I am a pro-life, pro-environment Catholic- I cannot see how one cannot be even if the larger movements for such issues do not always pass the smell test for me- I am not swayed from involvement because of that.

  • I don’t think the Pope’s quote quite takes the same direction as the USCCB’s seven pillars approach. I think he sees them as interrelated as are the virtues. If one is lacking others are weakend. Though, as there is a hierarchy in the virtues, perhaps we can say there is one in CST. The environment is to be care for but it seems the Pope places an emphasis (appropriately from my perspective) that if repect for the fundamental right to life (being born, not being euthanized) and freedom from a contraceptive mentality are not established, then a true environmentalism will never occur.

  • I am not surprised you disagree — but it is not because of a Christian sentiment, but through a post-Christian positivistic demythologized cultural criticism that you offer what you just said. Christendom knows Mother Earth. Positivism does not.

    “post-Christian positivistic demythologized cultural criticism.”

    Yep. You’re a professor to have written that.

    Seriously, this comment is nothing but a bunch of labels thrown at me. I am, let’s see…post-Christian, a positivist, Gnostic, and Protestant. I would respond to each of those accusations, and may do so if I have time, but for now I’ll simply let that you think I am guilty of all of the above at the same time stand as enough of a rebuttal.

  • I believe in one God, the Father the Almighty…

  • Congratulations on the new life! I too believe that environmentalism matters, but we have to get our priorities straight – something I wrote back in March along the same lines: http://avoiceintothevoid.wordpress.com/2010/03/26/npr-doesnt-like-pro-abortion/

  • Susan,

    Good link.

    You wrote,

    ” The intellectual elites have become more and more pro-abortion, even while the mainstream public has become more pro-life. ”

    Don’t you see? The elites know better than we do, with our “angry populism” and irrationalism. They can string together long phrases comprised of esoteric terms to belittle us with. We ought to recognize that they know more than we do and defer to their benevolent wisdom in the ordering social affairs.

    They only care about our saaaafety and the common goooood. And we’re just so gosh darn mean to them!

  • Perhaps my take on it is that the key thread that holds together the entire “Seamless Garment” is the right for the innocent not to be directly killed (abortion, stem cell research, euthanasia.)

  • hey can u make with earth day

Anglican Church in America Asks Entry Into Catholic Church

Wednesday, March 3, AD 2010

Breaking news as the House of Bishops of the Anglican Church in America has formally requested to enter the Catholic Church. All 99 parishes and cathedrals!

Here is the complete text [emphases mine]:

Orlando, FL – 1 pm EST – Bp. George Langberg

Released by the House of Bishops of the Anglican Church in America, Traditional Anglican Communion 3 March 2010

We, the House of Bishops of the Anglican Church in America of the Traditional Anglican Communion have met in Orlando, Florida, together with our Primate and the Reverend Christopher Phillips of the “Anglican Use” Parish of Our Lady of the Atonement (San Antonio, Texas) and others.

At this meeting, the decision was made formally to request the implementation of the provisions of the Apostolic Constitution Anglicanorum coetibus in the United States of America by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

Reverend Mark Siegel, the Dean of the Cathedral of the Incarnation in Orlando, Florida, expressed his desire and excitement in this historic move by a large Anglican body in more or less the following words.

‘I can’t say anything more than what the ACA announcement says, but we are all excited with this first step.’

Deo gratias!

_._

Biretta tip: Notes on the Culture Wars.

Continue reading...

403 Responses to Anglican Church in America Asks Entry Into Catholic Church

  • really? no, I mean really?

  • Yes.

    Got off the phone with the Dean of the Cathedral of the Incarnation, Diocese of the East Coast ACA, and he said its true.

    But I can’t get any details until their bishop returns.

    It’s on their website, I confirmed it, it’s true!

  • Friends we are at the beginning of something big. The Anglican Church in America has about 100 parishes and 5200 members. Here is a link to their dioceses.

    http://acahomeorg0.web701.discountasp.net/churches/churches_index.aspx
    Click on the dioceses and there are lists of the churches in each diocese.

    With this step being taken watch for lots of other Anglican and Episcopalian groups to plunge into the Tiber. Pope Benedict is a genius!

  • Wow! Praise God!

  • This is huge indeed.

    Of course, patience is needed.

    We need a personal ordinariate to be established first, secondly and Ordinary to head the Ordinariate.

    This my be jumping ahead, but what will this personal ordinariate be called?

    I propose the American Ordinariate of the Catholic Church!

  • Though it is Wikipedia, people should look carefully at what the ACA is about: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglican_Church_in_America

    It is really a recent creation, and it has been looking for communion — under its own expectations — with Rome since at least 2007. In other words, this is not a new story – and more importantly, they might not really be ready. Then again they might — but if so, will require lots of humility.

  • The ACA asking for entry is a new story.

    You may be referencing their “desire” to join.

  • What spendid news! On a recent visit in London, I met Canon Stuart Wilson, who when he converted from the Church of England brought his whole congregation with him.
    Armiger Jagoe,editor of The Joyful Catholic
    http://thejoyfulcatholic.wordpress.com

  • Let us pray for the continued conversion of the entire Christian Community, although in a spirit of humility. A spirit of gloating would be a very great sin in deed.

  • Martin Luther would be soooooo Happy!

  • Wonderful, what a good thing!!!

  • About a year ago, my chapter of Lay Dominicans was asked to pray a 40 day novena (oxymoron?) for something, but we couldn’t be told what it was. It turned out that this whole thing was what we had been praying for.

    As someone who entered into full communion in 1994 and left the Episcopal priesthood to do so, I am made very happy by the Constitution and by this news.

  • Does this mean current Latin-rite Catholics will be able to meet the weekly Mass obligation by going to one of these churches?

  • Holy freekin’ CRUD you’re joshin’ me!

    Coolness!

  • “Then again they might — but if so, will require lots of humility.”
    Whom makest thou thyself? You don’t sound all that humble.

  • anonymous – yes, once they are regularized. Right now, no.

  • Pingback: Praise God! « Divine Life – A Blog by Eric Sammons
  • Pingback: Anglican Church in America asks for entry into the Catholic Church | CatInfor.com
  • Pingback: Anglican Church in America asks for entry into the Catholic Church « CatholicVoteAction.org
  • YEAH! Welcome home!
    I’m seeing a father running to meet his prodigal son…

  • Hunni,

    A spirit of gloating would be a very great sin in deed.

    Yes it would be and we should be cautious in our exuberance, but it shouldn’t take anything away from the joy many of us feel on both sides the Tiber!

  • Our local Anglican Church has been slowly coming in to full communion with the Catholic Church for about 2 years now. I am thrilled to see their church as a whole come over, I hope other denominations follow there lead.

  • Praise God, I think this is great and let us all pray that other denominations will see that this is what we Chritstians need to do in this time of great Religious fanatical devide in the world, is to join togehter and unify as one church praising one God.

  • this has happened because the key to the kingdom of heaven is given to catholic church. gates of hell never prevails against catholic church. whatever st.perter and his successor do will be admitted in heaven. Catholic church build by jesus not by man.

    Francis
    India

  • Let us praise the Lord! Welcome back brothers and sisters to the Holy Catholic Church.

    Natalio A. Yaria
    Buenos Aires, Argentina

  • So all of the Anglicans in America will be Catholic if this is agreed upon? Awesome.

  • Also, this is only American Anglicans right? not, British?

  • This is wonderful, the answer to many prayers. From one who could not wait and has already joined, I say welcome home.

  • YOU NO WHAT GETS ME TO THINK ABOUT ANGLICANS,ORTODOX,EPISCOPALIANS,METHODISTS ETC IS THAT IT SEEMS OK JUSTS FINE TO TURN ROMAN CATHOLIC FOR ANY OF THESE GROUPS THAT I JUSTS MENTIONED BUT AS HISTORY RECALLS IT THEY GO BACK LIKE MAYBE A CENTURY OR WHAT LATER BUT THE THING IS AS HISTORY RECALLS IT THEY ALSO TAKE BACK CATHEDRALS THERE PERISHES THERE UNIVERSITYS ETC WHAT I AM TRYING TO LOOK HERE IS AT THESE IS THE ANGLICAN BISHOPS SIGNING OVER EVERYTHING TO ROME OR DO THEY NOT BELIEVE WHAT JESUS SAD TO THE RICH MAN YOU MUSTS GIVE EVERYTHING TO THE POOR IN ORDER TO FOLLOW ME THAT THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH JESUS QUOTED ON THAT VERSE .

  • This isn’t the entire Anglican church in America, just the bit of it that disagrees, as we do, with the ‘ordination’ of actively homosexual bishops. It is becoming more and more clear to those in the Anglican church who claim a common heritage with Rome (as some have done, not understanding that to reject Peter is to reject that heritage)that they need the authority that was only given to Peter and his successors: the mainstream (middle of the road) Anglican church is letting in practices that are not compatible with the Tradition St Paul urged us to be true to: “that which I received and in turn passed on to you”.

  • Claudio, the only way you could know what Jesus said, is from Catholic Tradition. In other words no Tradition no Christianity. We are really happy to have our brothers and sisters come home, you are also welcomed.

  • Any church in the US which is “Anglican Use” is a Roman Catholic parish (right now, just a few). Going to mass there is the same as going to a mass at any other Roman Catholic parish, or a liturgy in union with Rome.

    To enter the Church, the people in these parishes will have to do what everyone else does: study what the Church teaches (the Catechism), assent to it, and practice their faith.

    Praise God, who does not leave us orphans but always provides a way for us to know and follow the Truth. And, welcome, brothers and sisters in Christ! Many graces await you!!

  • WHY NOT GO STRAIGHT UP TO THE QUEEN OF ENGLAND WITH THE 80 MILLION ANGLICANS AND TELL HER TO GIVE US ALL ILL SAY 95% OF ENGLAND MEANING CONVERTED TO A PAPAL STATE BECAUSE THESE IS THE MENTALATY THAT WE ARE USING NOW IN DAYS COUNTRYS LIKE ITALY,SPAIN,FRANCE,POLAND,GERMANY,GREATBRITAIN,BRAZIL,ARGENTINA,CHILE,MEXICO,HONDURAS,GUATEMALA,EL SALVADOR,NICARAGUA,VENEZUELA,ECUADOR,PANAMA,COSTARICA ETC ARE 95% ROMAN CATHOLICS THE OTHER 5% OF THE POPULATION FROM THE COUNTRYS MENTIONED ABOVE ARE NOTHING MORE THEN GOVERMENT NUMBERS WE DONT NEED TO BE UNDER THE CURTAIN OF SATAN WE NEED THE CHURCH TO BE THE LIGHT AND STAY AWAY FROM WORLD POLITICS .

  • What would be wrong with a total second christian reformation? If all claim to of one faith why not prove it!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • Arturo,

    You’re a friendly reminder that in-your-face anti-Catholicism is still alive and well in the blogosphere.

    You probably should visit a dissident Catholic blog where you would feel most welcome.

  • Heh, Tito- I only barely scanned the caplock king there, initially thought he was (like my Elf) waiting for the Queen to convert. Makes more sense than what the closer reading put out….

  • “What man is amid the brute creation, such is the Church among the schools of the world.” Ven. John Cardinal Newman

  • Pingback: Top Posts — WordPress.com
  • Pingback: Comfortable Church Chairs And Banquet Chairs | Article Marketing
  • as a convert of two years, who was raised Episcopalian. i am not surprised at all.

    My childhood church has changed out of all recognition… and many of the Anglicans feel the same.

  • Benedictus!

  • Looks like one of Don’s Predictions for 2010 is already shaping up:

    “Pope Benedict’s Anglican Initiative will prove amazingly successful with ever increasing numbers of Anglicans and Episcopalians swimming the Tiber to participate.”

  • It was an easy enough prediction Elaine considering the pent up frustration of so many Anglicans and Episcopalians as to what has happened to their church. I think it has made them ready to join a church which does not take its marching orders from the zeitgeist of the moment.

  • Indeed! Martin Luther would be very happy.. And sad at the same time that it isn’t the church bearing his name isn’t the first to seek such Organic Unity!

  • Welcome…..The sheep are coming home…may God bless them….

  • Malcome said the the only way to know what Jesus said it thru catholic tradition. So, whats wrong with opening the bible? Oh, i forgot. The catholic church doesnt like for people to read the bible.

  • Wayne…stop drinking the kool aid… The catholic Church wrote The Bible. Wise up and read the early Chruch documents…

  • Wait, we’re not supposed to read the Bible?

    Dang, that WOULD make Mass short!

  • Foxfier you hit the nail on the head. Wonder how many have no clue what you are referencing.

  • I have a question, not a comment! What is your permissions policy regarding re-printing your material? I am especially interested in the ff: Anglican Church in America Asks Entry Into Catholic Church. I would like to re-print the article as it is in a Blog post. We will fully abide w/ your requirements for full attribution whatever they are! We are a prayer website w/ members from the twinned Catholic parishes of St. James the Less (La Crescenta) & Holy Redeemer (Montrose) in Southern California. Pls say Yes! We are hoping (& praying even harder)!

  • Connie,

    Just as long as you attribute it to us with a link, we’re ok with it be re-printed!

    In Jesus, Mary, & Joseph,

    Tito

  • Robert Sledzs, re-evaluate your statement that the catholic church wrote the bible. The early fathers were led by God to make copies. Bless them.The gospels were written by hebrews. Not by any catholic church which wasnt around at that time.

  • “The gospels were written by hebrews. Not by any catholic church which wasnt around at that time.”

    Saint Luke would have been stunned to realize that he is a Hebrew! The Catholic Church wayne was founded by Christ. The term Catholic Church was first used in 110AD by Saint Ignatius of Antioch, who was a disciple of Saint John. He used the term to emphasize the universal nature of the Church. (Universal is what the term catholic means.) He was the third Bishop of Antioch and received his consecration from the hands of the Apostles themselves. Learn a little history before you seek to be a troll on a Catholic website.

  • Hi Donald, actally, im not a troll. What i say can be verified either by scripture or history books.I put things in persective and it rubs people the wrong way. Especially if it means that what they believe is false. When i was first saved(born again) i still believed in evolution. I didnt fall to pieces when i found out i was wrong. I was delighted that a false idea was lifted off me. The new testament was written by people who lived thru it. Catholic folks like to believe that the catholic church wrote the bible. Not all,some aware catholic know that the church just compiles the works into one book.That was great. From then on the vatican spiraled down a dark path. Say, does anyone here know how the vatican aquired all its vast land holdings and its wealth? You all seem to be experts on all things catholic.

  • Of course you are a troll wayne, and an ignorant one. I gave you facts that you are unable to respond to so you merely restate that Catholics did not write the Bible.

  • Wayne,

    You’re reading a Bible written by Catholics.

    You think a stork dropped the King James Bible out of thin air?

  • Wayne seems to follow with the Donation of Constantine legend… lol.

  • Tito I have to agree with wayne in this sense. Catholics did not write the old testament. However all of the new testament was written by catholics and the the assembly of the works which makes up the bible was done by the catholic church and then luther chose to revamp the version which has become know as the king james version

  • Terry,

    I know.

    When I say Catholics wrote the Bible, I meant the New Testament. In addition they also put together the Bible.

    Typing too fast for my own good.

  • Catholics wrote the bible? Was Paul and Luke and John catholic? No. There wasnt even a catholic church. Really, im not so concerned about that. Its peoples salvation im worried about. But i do wonder where anyone cmae up with catholics writing the bible. We know who the authors were. But if you feel better thinking they belonged to catholic church, no harm is done. The harm is when you dont read it and or believe it. Donald says im ignorant. Besides claiming catholics didnt write the bible, what else did i ever say that is false or unverifiable?

  • Terry, what changes did Luther make to the bible?

  • Once again wayne you are making a statement without any facts to back it up. I have given you evidence that the term Catholic Church was first used by a disciple of Saint John and that he was consecrated as the third bishop of Antioch by the Apostles. In response you merely restate your conclusion that the Apostles were not Catholic. If you are going to take part in a combox discussion on this blog you need to cite facts to support a conclusion.

    In regard to Luther he rejected these books of the Old Testament that were part of the Christian Bible up to his time: Tobias, Baruch, Judith, Wisdom, Ecclesiastes, 1 Maccabees, 2 Maccabees, 7 Chapters of the Book of Esther and 66 verses of the third chapter of Daniel.

  • For those who may not be aware- the Anglican movement to Rome is not limited to just the United States.

    “Anglicans to be brought back to “full visible unity” with the Catholic Church”- (LifeSiteNews.com) [Tuesday Oct. 20, 2009]

    “First group of ‘Traditionalist” Anglicans in Britain votes to enter Catholic Church”- (LifeSiteNews.com) [Friday Nov. 6, 2009]

    “Australia’s Traditional Anglicans vote to convert to Catholicism” (Telegraph.Co.UK.) [Feb.16,2010]

    Also, comments by Wayne and those of his ilk are learned, and unfortunately are part of a Sunday service. Many are students of Loraine Boettner’s work-[anti-Catholic books,tracts,etc.]

    Catholic’s are not accustomed to attack- it
    may be a good time to read, “Catholicism & Fundamentalism”, Karl Keating, Ignatius Press. It has been in print since, I believe, 1988.

  • Donald, the disciples were humble and did not esteem any man more holy than the next. This is how Jesus taught them. The catholic church with its pecking order of holymen has nothing in common with the work of the dieciples. Further, im not concerned who termed the word cathloic. Does that mean that church is Gods church because of the name? Thats funny. I dont see where jesus or Peter for that matter ever refering to a name for followers of Jesus.Hey Don, theres a rival down the street from your catholic church, its call The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I had one of thier members tell me that thier church was Gods becouse of thier name. So what do we do now? Wait a min,the Jehovas Withness are Gods church, look at thier name.Donald, all joking aside. People who recieve Christ and are born again dont belong to a religion, neither would we join one once saved. Its just me and the Lord. We dont need no stinkin religion. Did i come close to answering your question? Can you answer my question? How did the vatican aquire all its land and wealth during the middle ages?

  • wayne, I’ll take your latest stream of consciousness comment as an admission that you know bupkis about the history of the Church or history in general.

  • Brother terrance, any facts i give out are just that, cold fact of history, easily verifiable. But you cant get an unbiasrd history from catholic history books. Listen to this true story Terrance; a while back, yrs ago, i took my girlfriends boy to the local library for some school project or another. While standing next to a bookshelf i saw a book titled The Inquisition. I started thumbing thru to get to the gory parts. None. Its said that during the inquisition, people were just asked questions and let go. No one was hurt. Hince the name inquisition.I couldnt believe this was a serious work. I went to the front to see who wrote it. No author, just printed by the Catholic Press,1950. Ive been to Catholic answers.com and seen more unbelieveable distortions. If you want reliable history, go to college textbooks and other non religious publications.

  • I don’t know who “Brother terrance” is, but the next time you have the urge to read about the Spanish Inquisition you might try reading Henry Kamen’s study on it which is the most up to date account.

    http://www.amazon.com/Spanish-Inquisition-Historical-Revision/dp/0300078803

    You truly do not have a clue about history do you wayne?

  • Wayne he left out a few books.

  • Pingback: Anglican Church in America asks to come into the Catholic Church « Cooperating with Grace
  • wayne, a little history assignment for you if you really want to learn about the history of the Church. Tell me which Catholic wrote this:

    “And this food is called among us Eucharist, of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, “This do ye in remembrance of Me, this is My body;” and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, “This is My blood;” and gave it to them alone. Which the wicked devils have imitated in the mysteries of Mithras, commanding the same thing to be done. For, that bread and a cup of water are placed with certain incantations in the mystic rites of one who is being initiated, you either know or can learn.”

  • Wayne i’m also curious as to how factual you think the da vinci code is?

  • Wayne my name is Terrence, not terrance. Out of respect it would be nice to at least get the spelling of my name correct, and use a capital T.

    You are fast and loose with words. You claim any facts you give are just that. Cold fact (facts) of history. Funny, but you never “reference” any of these cold, hard, facts, that are easily verifiable?

    You write in riddles and you lead one to believe you think this way. You have managed to expose yourself as someone who has little to no understanding of the history of the Roman Empire, before Christ, and after his birth to present day.

    Am I to understand you do not believe that a great majority of Anglicans are leaving to be part of the Roman Catholic Church? Afterall, this is what this article is about. The Anglicans I quoted from – Catholic site, and a secular news source, do not seem valid enough for you. You can find these stories in any major newspaper throughout the U.S., Canada, England, Australia. Here is another one for you Wayne: the Eastern Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church are also reuniting after splitting
    July 16, 1054. That is where such “insignificant” places like Antioch, Alexandria, Constantinople (Istanbul, Turkey today) happened to be located in the early Church. This of course was before the birth of Martin Luther Nov. 10, 1483, the German Catholic Monk.

    Wayne this may help enlighten you about how Martin Luther viewed the world. “Much scholary debate has concentrated on Luthers’s writings about Jews. His statements that Jews’ homes should be destroyed, their synagogues burned, money confiscated and liberty curtailed were revived and used in propganda by the Nazis in 1933-45. As a result of this and his revolutionary theological views, his legacy remains controversal. In 1983, the Luthern Church-Missouri Synod, denouced Luther’s “hostile attitude” toward the Jews. In 1994, the Church Council of the Evangelical Luthern Church in Ameriica announced: “As did many of Luther’s own companions in the sisteenth century, we reject this violent invective, and yet more do we express our help and abiding sorrow over its tragic effects on subsequent generations.” (Declaration of the Evangelical Luthern Church in America to the Jewish Community, April 18, 1994) (Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.)

  • Ill deal with one at a time. Terrance, my shift key doesnt work half the time. Some letter dont come out capital. Terry, Da Vinci code is a novel, nothing more. Donald, historical facts are facts. Do i have to mention books to you? Im pretty good with roman history. An overview of sorts.I would have to refer to books for dates and some names and what not. Donald, who cares what man wrote that paragraph? Jesus said; Let God be true and every man a liar. Let me make this clear to everyone; im not interested in what men say, or what some church org says about itself. Of course they will talk wonderfull about themselves, when in fact they are full of dead mens bones.Inquisition history; ive seen it with my own eyes and touched it with my hands, so there is no need to try to buffalow me there. Ive been to the torture chambers all thru europe. Ive seen the devices that the vatican used on people. The first one i went into, i had to run out cause i was about to throw up. Guided by the Holy Spirit, who are they kidding? I think i know why no one answered my question as to how the catholic church got rich. As to why the anglicals and the russian orthodox want to join the roman church, well, my grandma used to tell me; Wayne, it takes all kinds. The unsaved are capable of doing anything and everything.Come on some brave soul, answer my question, please, with sugar on top.

  • Wayne,

    Where inside the Bible is the word Bible?

    Where inside the Bible are the words “sola scriptura”.

    The apostles were just men, why don’t you discount them.

    And back to Donald’s point, why haven’t you addressed his evidence?

    I bet you even deny chapter 6 of the Holy Gospel of Saint John!

  • Almost forgot. Dont look at me for what Luther said. The only thing i admire about him is that he stood up to the vatican and blasted them for selling salvation. Which they still do.Amazing people still fall for that. P.T. Barnum used to say; A sucker is born every minute.

  • Hi Bro Tito. I went to the site Bro Donald put there for me. What evidence of Dons are you refering to. His msgs are pretty big. I read the reviews to the amazon book on inquisition.The author is following catholic lines, deny deny deny. These torture chambers are so numerous that if only 100 people died in each them, the numbers would be big. Thats not counting the ones that werent killed in the, the ones burned alive outside. i still get sick thinking of it. Why anglicans want to team up with an org like this,…beyond me

  • I’ve been looking into converting and I found the responses to Wayne very helpful in providing me with more information I need. Thank you all and God bless!

  • wayne, Henry Kamen is one of the foremost living historians of Spanish history.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Kamen

    I can understand that you prefer your bigotry to historical facts, but that isn’t acceptable on this blog. If you are going to make a historical statement that the Apostles were not Catholic, you have to defend it with historical evidence. And I note you still have not told me which Catholic wrote the statement I quoted above about the Eucharist. Lazy and bigoted are a poor way to go through life wayne.

  • Regarding the supposed great wealth of the Vatican, it is not the hierarchy of the Church which owns property; it is the Church as a whole, meaning approximately 1.5 billion people around the world. Take the value of all Church property and divide it by 1.5 billion and you will see how “wealthy” we really are. Any entity with that many members and a 2000 year history would of necessity have accumulated something. There must be places for its members to gather for worship, education and social purposes. The great works of art are there to inspire anyone who wishes to gaze upon them. Unlike museums, our church buildings do not charge admission and do not profit from the beauty they contain.

    If the Church were to sell it all today to feed the poor, their hunger would be abated for but a brief time and then they would be hungry again and the Church left with no places to worship or beautiful art to inspire and no resources to help the needy.

    Jesus, Himself, said that the poor would be with us always. Furthermore, the Catholic Church is the single greatest provider of charitable goods and services to people of all faiths throughout the world. We Catholics feed more hungry people, build more homes for the homeless and provide more medical services without expecting anything in return than all the other Christian churches combined. “Help carry one another’s burdens; in that way you will fulfill the law of Christ.” Gal 6: 2 and “If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and no food for the day, and you say to them, ‘Good-bye and good luck! Keep warm and well fed,’ but do not meet their bodily needs, what good is that? So it is with the faith that does nothing in practice. It is thoroughly lifeless.” James 2: 15-17 “You must perceive that a person is justified by his works and not by faith alone.” James 2:24

    So we Catholics take our faith very seriously and live it through our works. The “wealth” of the Church provides resources to do as the Bible instructs us to do for our fellow man and for coming together to worship God.

    Regarding Bible reading, the Mass is filled with scripture, so to say we don’t read the Bible simply demonstrates ignorance. Anyone who goes to Mass every Sunday will have gone through the entire Bible (Old and New Testaments) every three years. Those who attend daily Mass go through the Bible yearly. And, yes, for those non-Catholics out there who don’t know any better, we do read the Bible on our own and we do have Bible studies outside of the Mass. No, we don’t tend to be experts at quoting chapter and verse, but where in the Bible does it tell us that is important?

    P.S. Wayne still is misspelling Terrence’s name. There is no “a”.

  • Hi Jennifer, Terrence, no a. Of course some catholics read the bible. What i said was that the catholic policy is for people not to get into the bible. Ive had catholic after catholic tell me thier priest discourages reading by themselves. Yes in mass the say a few verses.Jennifer , thanks for trying to answer my question.Even though didnt answer the question i still commend you. The others dont want to open that can of worms. The question was HOW the catholic church became so wealthy.By the way, my best friend was in rome a few months ago. They charge for the vatican tour now. I dont remember them charging me, but that was long time ago. Terrence, with an e, you say i deny the news stories of anglicans wanting in with the catholic church. No i dont.I believe the reports. Like i say, the unsaved will do anything.Luthers stand on the jews; he was a catholic monk. Luther just talked, the church did the walk. They put to death many jews thru europe.TerrEnce, i dont know who wrote that paragraph you put up? It could have been my mother. How would i know. Is that your only way of discrediting me? People here just say im ignorant, but they stop short of denying the inquisition killed bible believers and jews by the thousands. The only charge that sticks is that im sort of ignorant of what the catholic church teaches, but i have been closing that gap fast.I know lots of what it teaches. TITO, the word bible isnt in the bible. There was no bible back then. Sola scriptura wasnt mentioned by that term either. That just a ploy used by the church to justify its off the wall teachings.And i dont deny John chap 6 or any part of bible. I would beg to differ on your spin on it which would be, if youre catholic, would be catholic spin.Any religion can take the same verse and say it means thier religion is the best.You see folks, im here to say that its not religion that saves you, its your one on one with Jesus. You go to him one quiet time and ask him to show himself.

  • WAYNE, Can I just ask you something? Like, this is a Catholic website you’re on. I’m taking an educated guess and saying you’re not Catholic and don’t agree with Catholicism, so why are you on this website? Is it to change the minds of the Catholics here? From all the arguing taking place here, I don’t think that’s gonna happen so why not just stop trying. I only ask because I’m subscribed to emails from this site and every day I’ve been getting the emails of arguments and I don’t enjoy it. LOL. I only subscribed because I was curious about what people thought of the Anglican church making this decision and nobody is even talking about that anymore, now all I see is argument.

  • Shacoria, would you like me to go away? And take my message to ask Jesus to be born again so you can enter heaven? Why dont you like that message?

  • Wayne,

    Why are you afraid to answer any of our questions?

  • I must appologise for something. Ive given the idea im just attacking catholicism. Im suggesting that no organised religion will save you. JWs, mormons, seventh days, baptist,assemblies of God, you name them. If i came here exposing the false practices of Jehovas Witness you all would agree with me. Thats why youre not in that church cause you dont believe in them.Earlier i posed a question; How did the catholic church get so rich. No one wants to answer, for good reason.Here goes the answer; Innocent III came up withthe Decreta Vergenti 1199. This document , of his own doing, sanctioned the vatican to kill or and torture people who didnt agree with catholicism AND confiscate their property.Most of the time the vatican made sure these heretics lived on choice land and all grouped togeather. Next in the crosshairs were the Cathars, a people who shunned the excessive and unbiblical ways of the catholic church. You know, men in fancy robes and idols all around, a continuation of roman pagan idolatry. So,the vatican had its loyal troops decimate these docil people and took their land. This senario is repeated over and over again.Its a matter of history for anyone who wants to search.That how the church got rich. Theft and murder.

  • Tito my brother, please repeat the questions you want me to try to answer. Im not God, so lots of questions i have no answer for, but ill give my honest opinion.

  • WAYNE, I just want the arguing to stop. Let’s get back to the topic at hand. Let’s say what we feel about the “Anglican Church In America Asks Entry Into Catholic Church” because that’s what this is about.

  • fair enough Shacoria. I think the Anglican org is running low on cash. They think by joining the big boys they can keep thier cushy jobs. Hey, getting a paycheck regularly. Thats what im about also.Everybody needs an income.

  • I wish to thank, Jennifer- (thoughtful attempt to satisfy Wayne’s relentless harping about the Vatican’s acquired wealth over it’s 2,000 year history- also her message regarding how Catholics live the “SCRIPTURE” [the book Wayne claims we do not read] providing food, clothing, shelter, to all nations, regardless of race, creed, or color.) To Donald R.- (who must be exhausted-no matter what logic he attemped with Wayne, it was just pushed aside.) To Shacoria- who would like the arguing to just “stop”. It seems Wayne delibertly, and in a vicious manner,caused many of us to become angry and miss the whole intent of this article- “Anglicans coming home”, after Henry VIII’s seperation in 1534.
    It is encouraging to see how many of you took the time to express your yourselves in a positive manner,defending the faith we love. Something, sadly
    Wayne refuses to accept, nor attempt to understand.

  • Thank you Terrence! wayne has a bad case of invincible ignorance. I pray that he will ultimately receive the grace to be cured from his affliction.

  • Hello ,
    The Eucharistic paragraphs were written by…..?
    Did I miss the name?
    They are beautiful!

    The WAY is the Catholic Church with Jesus Christ The KING as our Bridegroom!
    Thanks, Tom

  • Donald, the historical facts are sad and i guess im vicious for reminding people of them. The message is Christ and him crucified and risen. People here say i should come to the truth. Is the truth on my knees in front of a statue? And you call me ignorant?

  • “Donald, the historical facts are sad and i guess im vicious for reminding people of them”

    wayne, you have not stated any historical facts in this entire thread. You are ignorant of the history of the Church, and you are too lazy to learn the facts.

  • Terrence, thanks for the acknowledgement. Wayne, again you fail to get the point. You are obviously determined to hate and condemn the Church. I won’t try again to explain 2000 years of accumulated wealth by a 1.5 billion member entity since you will look only for dark episodes in Church history and completely discount anything possitive.

    Again, we don’t just “read a few verses” at Mass. Parishes provide bulletins that include a list of readings for the daily Masses so that those Catholics unable to attend Mass every day may look them up in their own Bibles and read them on their own time. Catholics everywhere are encouraged by the Church to read from Holy Scripture daily and are not limited to the official readings of the Mass.

    Your repeated assertions that the Church’s policy discourages independent bible reading is simply wrong. You have been misinformed and you have had multiple practicing Catholics here tell you that we read the Bible, and not in defiance of an oppressive hierarchy, and yet you obstinately persist in spouting falsehood. The average practicing Catholic of my age who attends Mass regularly has read it 15 to 20 times and more devout ones such as me have read it 30 or more times.

    Think about it. If you are wrong on this one thing about which you are so adamant, what else may you be wrong about?

    About being saved, “whoever believes and is baptized will be saved” Mk 16: 16. Faith is necessary for salvation but faith ALONE is not sufficient. “None of those who cry out, ‘Lord, Lord’ will enter the kingdom of God but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven” Mt 7: 21-22 Also, one can lose one’s salvation. “Consider the kindness and the severity of God — severity toward those who fell, kindness toward you, provided you remain in his kindness; if you do not, you too will be cut off.” Rom 11: 22.

    You say you spurn all organized religion/churches but value the Bible. Well that is contradictory. “Would you show contempt for the church of God?” 1Cor 11:22 “We should not absent ourselves from the assembly, as some do, but encourage one another” Heb 10: 25

    On that note, I invite you to go to Mass at a Catholic Church near you. Go with an open mind and heart. Listen to the prayers which come directly from scripture and to the readings. Notice that we are not in the habit of citing chapter and verse but that we do include a great deal of scripture in our service. Even our Eucharistic prayer includes a great deal of OT and NT passages if you are sharp enough to detect them. Go to Mass but do not partake of Holy Communion since you do not yet have a true understanding of its significance and are not IN Communion with the Catholic Church. After you have attended several Catholic Masses, perhaps you will be better able to communicate with people like us with some genuine knowledge.

    Peace be with you.

  • Tito,

    Thanks so much for your prompt reply! (And even more for your positive, very-Christian & generous response to our reprint permission request!) Of course, we will abide by your attribution requirement of leaving a link intact w/ the reprinted material. More powerful blessings to you & your organization!

    BTW, can i take this as the general policy I can apply to other materials from your site that we wish to reprint?

    GBU all the time,
    Connie I. Ko

  • Connie I. Ko,

    Absolutely!

    In Jesus, Mary, & Joseph,

    Tito

  • What is interesting is how you all prattle on about historical facts and the true church but seem to forget the 11th century dustup. If you wanted true reunion you should join the Orthodox Church and then endeavor to bring Rome back into the fold. It’s actually the closest thing to historic and pure Christianity that you can get. Don’t need any kind of fun stipulations to be married, etc.

  • Pardon me while I guffaw. All the Orthodox need to do is to live up to the agreement that they made at the Council of Florence in 1439 and all is forgiven.

  • Shacoria

    Thanks for steering the conversation back to the original topic. This is a favorite trick of the evil one…. steering us off target, especially with fallacious arguments. While we should evangelize non Catholics, we also need to know when someone is only interested in arguing and keeping us off the original topic which is our great joy of reunification.

  • You know Wayne, I do believe in evolution…both the scientific kind (What a wonderful God to have created such a magnificant plan) and the evolution of the Church.The human race continues to evolve both physically and spiritually and we continue to add to our understanding of God. and His plan.
    The Church has travelled through the Ages with us humans and likewise has grown and changed as the centuries passed.We now understand how babies are concieved , how germs make us sick and that the earth revolves around the sun. We have changed our forms of government from monarchies to democracies in many places.So as the Middle Ages recede into history we recognize that at one time the Vatican was a monarchy as were most of the world’s governments. The Church has acknowledged her participation in the Inquisition to her shame (of which I’ve been aware all of my long life) and . There are many errors in the Churh’s history but the Churh is made up of sinful human beings and our God is a merciful God. So the Church acted like a medieval kingdom and acquired armies aamd wealth along with her neighbors.Much of that welth has been lavished on the world’s poor and suffering. But art like The Pieta , ancient writings , gold and silver lavished upon the Church by grateful belivers is beyond value. The Church has preserved much through wars plagues and invasions. I guess if you add it all up the Church has done much more good in the world than evil But that’s only what I think.

  • Wayne keeps harping on the inquistion and as catholics we are aware of this wart and all other warts, and as alice pointed out these were do to human weakness. Remember, however, that through all the bad times the Dogma of our faith has never been changed from the beginning. Why, because it is Christ’s church and as he said He will be with it until the end of the world.

  • Terry, you should see some of the dogma.99.99% of people have no idea what the church fathers came up with. You would be amazed. But its not shocking cause the ideas were widespread and still are, like negro inferiority. Its in the Canons. But never mind that. My comp was not moving until now so sorry for the delay in responding.Finally someone admits the reign of terror called inquisition. By the way, the office in charge if the killings, the Holy Office, is still there.The point im making by bringing it up is to make you thing that…Hmmmmm…maybe the holy spirit isnt guiding this church after all.Thats ALL im getting at. Im suggesting that possibly the catholic church isnt a vehicle for salvation. Or any other religion.Corint 11;32 talks about assembling. The saints assembled to bolster each other. How in the heck can you turn that around to mean that the catholic church is gods church? You guys take any scripture, any one at all and turn it into the catholic church.People, get your head out of that ritual ridden religion and ask Jesus himself to show you Himself.I see Donald is still claiming i know nothing, but i noticed he never takes any example of history i mention and says its false. Hes the ‘shoot the messenger’ type. You good people ever stop and think, Hmmmmm..Jesus said that the road to salvation is narrow and FEW that be thereon.Broad is the path to destruction and many be thereon.Any of you bible scholars ever toss that one around? When Jesus says few he means Few, and when he says Many , he means MANY.Yes buddy. In relation to the topic on hand,the anglicans joining up with the vatican, what does that bring to mind? A few devout catholics in here have reminded me on how many catholics there are in the world and now there will be more. One, i forgot, a female, said” lets evangelize people”. in other words, lets make more catholic converts.Well folks, that just fullfills Jesus words. The path to salvation is narrow.It wont accomodate billions. So, whats going to happen to all these billion catholics? For that matter, any group or religion? For that matter everyone.Ill let you in on a secret. Many are called but few are chosen. I rarely come across born again people in blogs or out in public. They are so few its not funny.Oh, i know a number of them. God lets us find each other. We are strangers in a strange land.

  • The Church built Western civilization:

    http://www.amazon.com/Catholic-Church-Built-Western-Civilization/dp/0895260387

    As for this “narrow” stuff, um… do you not understand that what is meant is that most people won’t choose salvation – not that they can’t?

    Any Catholic can become a saint.

  • Joe, any human can become a saint. The definition of a saint is someone who is saved and born again, which mean the same thing.Dear jennifer, i attended mass a number of times when i was young on Xmas eve. My parents didnt go. i asked my across the street neighbors to take me cause i thought it was the rite thing to do on Xmas eve. My family was , what you call protestant. But i always wanted to do more on Xmas than eat chips and dip and caviar. I had a hunger for Jesus.I didnt know it at the time.But ive been to mass jennifer.Its hollow as a bell.When Jesus healed people, did he do some repeated sermon or wave some gold trinket around? Jennifer, i have an assignment for you. Find out what the official colors of the catholic church are. Or the Vatican colors, which ever.Joe, its not that i dont understand what narrow is, Jesus said the path is narrow, argue with Him

  • Gold and silvery white are the primary colors symbolizing the keys to the Kingdom given to St. Peter. see Matthew 16:19. Why do you ask?

    I still recommend you attend some Masses. Youth often grow impatient with all the readings and homily in the Mass. Even many Catholics don’t develop a real love for the Mass until adulthood. You cannot depend upon memories of a few Christmas Masses from your youth. Especially since you likely had no understanding of what was happening.

    Also, I think your instincts were right when you said “i always wanted to do more on Xmas than eat chips and dip and caviar. I had a hunger for Jesus.” I understand that hunger is what drove you to go to Mass in the first place. Well it is that hunger that brings us Catholics back again and again. Our deep love of the Lord draws us to Him in the Sacraments.

    Do I have a personal relationship with Jesus? ABSOLUTELY!!! Have I been born again? MOST CERTAINLY!
    I don’t understand why other Christians think that Catholic Christians are not “born again” and don’t have personal relationships with Jesus. It is just another example of people passing judgement on others out of ignorance. If you really want to get to know us rather than just wanting to change us or win an argument against us you might begin to see the truth.

  • Hi Jennifer.Do you have a best friend or a brother or a sister? can you tell me one of thier names?

  • I almost forgot. Jennifer, purple and scarlet are official colors. here is an excerpt from catholic answers……It is appropriate for Catholic clerics to wear purple and scarlet, if for no other reason because they have been liturgical colors of the true religion since ancient Israel.

    http://www.catholic.com/library/Hunting_the_Whore_of_Babylon.asp

  • Dear Jennifer, dont count on me joining the catholic religion. I just cant get into the statues and the holymen with big robes and the icons and gold cups and what not.

  • Wayne,

    No one here is going to join you in your anti-Catholic bigotry and sectarian Protestantism, so, why don’t you go find something better to do?

  • Brother Joe, have you noticed that i ask folks here to go to Jesus and ask him for salvation? Is this what you calll anti-catholic? You have spoken well my brother. because the cathoilc church doesnt want you to go to Jesus. They want you to go to Mary and all sorts of dead people. Joe, get on your knees and pray to dead people all you want.you have my blessing.Joe , this is my something better to do, warn my brothers and sisters.You seem to Hate the message of Jesus saves. cause you love the message of idols saves.so get on your rusty knees and pray to those idols

  • Joe is symtomatic of the catholic problem. 99.99% of faithfull catholics dont know what is going on behind the curtians.Most of my childhood friends were catholic and i looked up to them.They didnt do drugs and they did chores like yardwork and pool cleaning.Most of us had pools.Look behing the curtains. have any of you bible scholars heard of the black pope? Dont take my word for any of it…search it on internet, then get back with me.search….BLACK POPE

  • “Joe is symtomatic of the catholic problem.”

    I don’t think I could have asked for a nicer compliment. Thank you 🙂

    And, I’ll be sure to throw in some extra prayers to “dead people” on your behalf. You can thank me later.

  • let me be honest. Joe hates me because if im rite, all his family who have passed away have no salvation. That hurts.The best he can do now is save himself, and that is thru Jesus himself, not thru gold cups or statues or icons. Are you bible scholars aware that when jesus whipped the money changers and what not out of the temple, that most of them were selling religious items? Jesus hates religious items. Catholic loves religious items.Hence, anti christ behaviour.

  • Bro Joe, i dont want to see you unsaved in the last day.You have to ask Jesus for the answer in some quiet time you have. mAYBE BEFOR BED.Dont listen to me. Ask Jesus to show you the way.

  • Joe is most likely a wonderfull person who loves God. As are most catholics. i was unsaved also. I was congregationalist. It meant nothing.But in the judgement, those who claim god god wont enter heaven because Jesus didnt know them.Gold trinkets and incense wont get you a personal relation with Christ.

  • I’m at least glad to see that, however unsaved we Catholics may be, we have better spelling, grammar and capitalization abilities.

  • Wayne I have been away for the past few days-you have posted 24X in the past 7 days- I see you still hate the Catholic Church; your “space bar” is still acting-up, and you continue to berate everyone who makes a comment you do not agree with.

    Here is where we are tonight, at least you and me. You read the bible. (given to you by the Catholic Church, that took 400 years to compile, and another 1000 years before it went to the printing press). You deny that. You have been saved. And according to you there is no universal “Katholikos”,(gk)Church.

    When I pray the Rosary in front of the abortion clinic next week, I will say an “Ave Maria”, for your
    salvation. And on my Chotki beads, “Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God have mercy on me, a sinner”, for myself.

    God bless Jennifer, Joe, Donald, Terry and all my Roman Catholic friends.

  • Wayne, I have several best friends, two sisters and a brother. Don’t see the need to share their names with you. They are all friends in Christ and most of them are also Catholic.

  • Wayne, You are mistaken about the official colors of the Vatican. They are yellow and white as I stated. What you refer to are LITURGICAL colors and there are several more than just scarlet and purple. Liturgical colors are quite different than the official Vatican colors which you would know if you had any understanding of the Catholic faith and liturgy.

  • Wayne, Catholics are not required to get into statues and icons – they are mere symbols. I’m not sure what you mean by the holy men with big robes – if you are referring to Bishops etc. there is no assumption that they are holy and we know that they are only human just as Christ’s first disciples were flawed. Many abandoned Him and went back to their old ways when he told them His flesh is food indeed and His blood is drink indeed. Of the twelve that remained, one betrayed Him, one denied Him and all but one abandoned Him during His passion. Even after His resurection, one persisted in disbelieving until He was provided with physical proof. Why should we expect their predecessors to be any better than the men hand picked by our Lord?
    You have a great deal of misconceptions about the Church.

  • Wayne, I find great joy that the ACA has asked to join the Catholic Church and I also praise God when he fills someone like you with so many questions about our faith. Perhaps in your efforts to get to the bottom of things you will actually discover the Truth (Jesus Christ) and come into full communion with Him in His one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church against which the gaits of hell will not prevail, not ever, past, present or future.

    Jesus said the God of Abraham, Isaac and Moses is God of the living, not the dead, so we know that those who have died and gone to heaven are alive and we do not worship them but ask them to pray for us just as we ask people around us who we think may have a special relationship with Jesus to pray for us. That is what is meant by the communion of saints in the Apostles Creed which most Christions proclaim – not just Catholics.

    Peace be with you.

  • Terrence, God bless you also and may the Holy Spirit guide you and provide you with all the Graces He can bestow as you pray at the abortion mill. I am a prayer partner for a couple ladies who pray at the mills. Can’t go in person because I am disabled, unable to drive, and am dependent on others for transportation – also at high risk of having a seizure if exposed to the elements for very long. So I offer my suffering up in union with Christ’s suffering on behalf of those who pray or counsel at the sidewalk, the men and women who are contemplating abortion, and for all the so-called doctors and nurses who provide those murderous services. God can turn even the most hardened of hearts.

    I think the fact that the Catholic Church is vertually the only one that has never wavered in its position on the evils of abortion and contraception is one of the reasons other Christians are softening towards us and coming home to the only faith that holds the fullness of truth, not just selected fragments.

  • let me be honest. Joe hates me

    If you actually believe that, you’ve got a greatly inflated notion of the effect you may have. His last post is good advice if you have no intent to listen as well as talk.

    He DISAGREES with you because you are wrong, and may be annoyed that you will not engage rationally or work with facts–or he may have shrugged and forgotten all about you.

    He did probably care more than most, since he seems to have done more than scan your wave of posts.

    Jennifer… you’re nuts, and a better person than I.

  • Jennifer and others, my aim is not to pick on your religion.Though its a easy one to find fault with. My aim is to exhort you to go straight to the source< Jesus, for salvation instead of depending on any organization. The reason for the history reminders were to make you think about if the catholic church can actually save you or even does it have the ability to dish god out. No man or org has god in a can and can serve him at will. Just do me a favor, think about it for a while. Jennifer, keep on with your battle againt the baby killers.

  • WAYNE, WHY ARE YOU STILL HERE? CAN’T YOU SEE IT’S NOT ACCOMPLISHING ANYTHING.

    formspring.me/shaqrob

  • It seems I heard that there has already been some applications to the vatican. Can anyone verify this or have I been dreaming?

  • I need to know much about the church historically and current affairs.

  • Raphael when you see wayne’s post just ignore it. He hasn’t a clue what the catholic church is about. There are books I am sure will give you pure history of the church. If you are interested in theological history from the first few centuries you would have to read the Fathers and Doctors of the Church. To get a feel for the overall faith and to get basics on the attitude of current affairs get the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

  • Benedict XVI moved to receive members of the Anglican Communion into the church without even speaking of it to the Archbishop of Canterbury beforehand. He also repeated the questionable assertion that Anglican orders are invalid.Benedict is a genius? None of this seems wise to me.

    In addition, the hierarchy worldwide, as well as Benedict have so completely and dishonorably managed the sex abuse scandal, that I cannot understand where I fit in the church. The usual tactic was followed: stonewall and all will pass. Everything has to come out. Now! Or there will be no healing over the long-term.

    Everyone needs to come to Rome? What prideful deceit!

  • Thomas,

    He was approached by Anglicans wanting nothing to do with Canterbury.

    As far as Anglican orders being invalid, that was said by an earlier pope (and was correct).

    With your ‘sex’ scandal comments, that means your really not looking to engage in dialogue, just vitriol.

  • …the “poaching” thing, AGAIN?!?

    How come it always ends up applied to Catholics, I wonder, but never…oh…any Catholic converted out? Ooh, can’t use that as a hammer, never mind.

  • You’re not convincing anyone. You’re not angering anyone. No one here is impressed by your blustering ignorance. I’m not sure what your intention or goal was in posting, but all you’re doing is making a public global record of your idiocy. It’s rather sad.

  • Wayne,

    Ditto Chris M.

    You’ll regret what you posted if you ever bother to do any research.

  • Ok Tito my friend, fair enough. Ill do research. In the meantime, disprove anything i said. I dont mean documentation, just tell me what statement,phrase or word i said was incorrect. I get this same stuff on other sites.They just say im wrong or ignorant, usually both. Tell me what you disagree with. Thanks for your time

  • Wayne- you spend time picking fights with poor logic because your unicorn has a flat and the elves aren’t calling back.

    Disprove anything I just said.

  • “Wayne- you spend time picking fights with poor logic because your unicorn has a flat and the elves aren’t calling back.”

    Brilliant Foxfier! I am going to steal that gem for future use.

  • wayne,

    As a fellow Christian, I apologize for the “idiocy” comment. It was mean and uncalled for. I appreciate your intent to do some research.. BUT.. if you’re researching with a hermeneutic of suspicion (IOW, you already KNOW you’re right and you’re just looking for ammo), it won’t do anyone any good since you’ll only see what you want to see. Try reading to see what we believe from OUR point of view, instead of one colored by your own particular beliefs and experiences.

  • Donald-
    just a pet peeve. (one in a huge flock I can’t seem to cull)

    Someone making claims should provide evidence, not demand others do it for them.

  • Well, you guys are batting %100. I made 3 accusations about catholic church and not one of you has the hutzspa to say any one is wrong. Images…the catholic churches and websites are full of them.When god came down on the mount when the israelis left egypt, he didnt show any likeness of himself lest the people make am image to venerate it.Which he doesnt want at all. Tell me im wrong.The priesthood is a homosexual fraternaty….some one tell me im wrong.Ok there are a few straight priest, thats given. Idols, arent the catholic churches filled with statues from small to big? Someone tell me im wrong. Calling me names wont clear those idols out of your church.

  • some one tell me im wrong

    You’re wrong.

    Happy?

  • Im happy now. Thanks Fox

  • Here is my point. We all want salvation. The way to do it is ask Christ himself to reveal himself to you. Dont waste valuable time expecting others to do it for you.

  • Wayne,

    You need to back up your accusations with evidence.

  • Tito, give you evidence? My friend, are you handicapped? Can you see? Just asking. Just walk into a catholic church and look around. You will see statues applenty.Iconic pictures also. By the tons.Im i wrong? My girlfriend is catholic. From new jersey. She fills me in on what i dont know. She hates the catholic church now. Then there is this monsterance(good name) that the wizard(priest) turns a wafer into the actual body of christ.Ive seen peole on their knees praying and singing to that golden trinket on EWTN. Go ahead, say it aint so.ou are asking me if the catholic church has statues? Any one in here can answer that. Shabby way to go about this my friend Tito. If you are embarrased of your religion, find a good bible believing church in your area. I can help you if you live in the USA

  • “monsterance”

    The term is monstrance, you idiot. It is used to hold the body of Christ.

    Tito, I think that far too much time has been wasted on this dim witted bigot. It is your thread, but I think he should be banned. He is unable to argue effectively, expresses himself clumsily and is so ill-informed as to be comic. Aside from unintentional humor, he has nothing to offer other than raw hate.

  • Begging the question: you take as given that icons and statues are idols.

    Appeal to authority, or possibly hearsay: your girlfriend was Catholic and now hates the Church.

    Argument by definition: you define Transubstantiation as invalid, and define the Body of Christ as a mere “wafer.”

    You are incorrect about EWTN showing people worshiping a “golden trinket.” I’m going to guess you mean Eucharistic Adoration, since you mention a monstrance. (That is the holder, not the “wafer.”)

    Jesus said: this is my body, this is my blood. Do this in memory of me.

    It is His body.

    Argue with Him.

  • Mike I liked your comment however I would like to see him go looking to prove he’s right because I would bet he can’t. A couple of pretty well known names tried just that and became a couple of very staunch catholics, I’m thinking of John Henry Neumann and Scott Hahn. They are the tip of the iceberg.

    Wayne You are so far off on our comments it is unbelievable. You can’t seem to get it into your head that the root of the church is the faith, not people.

    As Christ told the apostles I will be with you until the end of time. So keep ranting, and when you are through you will be gone and the Catholic Church will still be here. May the Holy Spirit come on you and show you the way to the truth.

  • Wayne,

    Until you begin to offer evidence your comments will not be approved for viewing.

  • Wayne:
    I assume you are a card carrying Protestant? In the age of the internet I’m surprised that you are so ignorant. You should spend time doing some serious research regarding the things you have been saying about the Catholic Church. Your answers are from the 1800s and 1900s when information about anything and everything was not readily availiable to the serious researcher.
    Have you ever wondered why the Supreme Court now has five Catholics and possibly three Jewish Justices? It’s not even the brain power. It’s the ability to use natural law and common sense. You are sound as if you have no ability to think logically. By the way statues are just beautiful remembers of great people that have long past our way. Washington DC has tons of statutes. Get over it. Many of them are beautiful works of art and a great monument to our civilization.

  • Touche Tito Edwards,It may help to tell our blogging Catholic hater he is in good company with every 20th century athiest and so-called progressive secular in his boring vitriol against the Catholic church, this Catholic hating is so new york times. A reminder that it was the Catholic & Orthodox church before the sad split that canonized the present Christian Bible. statues in a Catholic church are JUST THAT statues, and as pointed out reminders of those great men & women that went before us, as are Ikons in Orthodoxy. Tito you have infinitely more patience than I have towards Catholic haters, my language would have been a hell of a lot more colourful, Mea Culpa

  • Im not a catholic hater. I am an historian. I remind or teach history. Its your idea that i hate. But what has the CC done over the yrs? Kill bible believers and so forth. Call me names but the Cc history remains the same.

  • Wayne,

    If you know history why do you continue to lie.

  • Brother Tito, glad to talk to you. Why dont you tell me what you think is a lie? Then i can document it.You just say i lie without saying what im lieing about. Im open to being corrected. Thanks for talking to me.

  • Pingback: Benoît XVI en Angleterre: que va-t-il faire dans cette galère?
  • The facts remain the same:
    Roman Catholicism represents a radical departure from original/authentic Christianity. I’m not supposing Christianity doesn’t ‘develop’ or progress through time and assume new forms. But Catholicism under Rome has actually altered the essence of Christianity.
    From reading teh New Testament, no one would ever get a sense of Mary that is understood at Rome. In fact, scripture is such that it doesn’t permit the evolution of such an idea. Neither would one assume a devotion to Mary based on a faithful and informed reading of the N.T.
    Abstention from marriage and certain foods as commanded by church leaders is a departure from apostolic orthodoxy. The Greek church seems to recognize this at least in relation to marriage for priests.
    The Roman chruch was the only major church available for much of European history, and it was tolerated and even enjoyed. But when it developed beyond certain scriptural parameters and grew corrupt, other churches formed. Apostolic continuity depends on the maintenance of Christianity under the leadership of the church. If the leaders have succession but are in possession of alien beliefs, there is no real succession. The leaders and sacraments may be in place, but the religion has basically altered, and it is a sham. The most important thing here is to correctly understand the essence of Christianity and the church. If people understand that, I think they can then grasp much else. But it is like a gestalt switch.
    4.

  • So, you’re deciding that the organized Christianity that has been around since before there was a collected NT is a radical departure, based on your own reading of the NT.

    The same NT that, by the way, has Jesus doing his first big public miracle…because his mom said to….

    How about some citations with exactly where it’s departed and why you think things are impossible or obvious?

  • Yes, God’s people played a role in scripture and its canonization. That is most certainly true.
    However, I am not basing anything on my own ‘take’ or ‘read.’
    Mary was his mother and things of course played themselves out on a human plane too–we acknowledge that and are glad–God incarnated himself and dwelt with us. He becdame like one of us.
    The Roman church didn’t significantly depart at once. It took time and depending on who you read through the centuries will probably determine where you place the final ‘departure.’
    But to say a profound break with Christianity ocurred by 1300-1500 AD is certainly not unreasonable.
    This will depend on what parts of Europe, what aspects of Roman Catholicism we cite, etc.
    Things like this don’t get pinned down precisely. But like the flu, you know it when it’s there.
    Hope that helps.

  • You said that reading the NT made it clear the Church had departed from the “original” and “authentic” Christianity.

    You still haven’t offered the citations and reasoning.

    Barring any sort of rational support, you’re in the “I don’t like it so I’m grasping” camp.

    Shoot, you specifically call out our treatment of Mary, going so far as to say: scripture is such that it doesn’t permit the evolution of such an idea.

    You claimed it; support it.

  • “But to say a profound break with Christianity ocurred by 1300-1500 AD is certainly not unreasonable.”

    Not reasonable and ahistoric. The essential dogmas of the Catholic Church were well established by the end of the Fifth Century, including Marian devotion. The Catholic Church that you claim is a radical departure from Christianity is the original Christian Church. All other Christian sects and denominations are breakaways from the Catholic Church, or breakaways from breakaways.

  • Sal,

    Where are the citations from the NT you claim?

    You’re making up information out of thin air.

  • Concerning Marian devotion:
    1. Some of scripture demonstrates Mary’s influence upon Jesus.
    2. Other aspects of the N.T. highlight the relativity of things in light of the fulfillment–e.g. here are my mother, brother and sisters–those who do my will.
    e.g. Blessed is she who gave you suck: nay, rather….

    What’s really fundamental here is not which verses we highlight, but the overall tenor or gist if you get what I mean.

    As for the year 500, I don’t really think so.
    Patristic writings use Mary as symbol and there is talk of Eve, sin and newness, etc. This is in keeping with the patristic / greco approach of the use of analogous thought. As Chirst was the new Adam, so let’s have one for Mary/ Eve. THAT SHOULD NOT BE VIEWED ANACHRONISTICALLY (READING BACK INTO HISTORY A LATER DEVELOPMENT THAT WAS MORE MEDIEVAL).
    Hope that helps.

  • Sal-
    you claimed that the scripture would not allow it.

    Support your claim with evidence, not more claims.

    All you are doing is hand-waving.

  • OK then. I take it you want the simple answer. Concerning Marian devotion:
    1. God Father, Son and Holy Ghost requires our full devotion.
    2. Devotion to any saint who’s gone on to glory will sidetrack us; that is idolatry and we are warned of it at the conclusion of the epistle to Jude.
    3. Apparitions have become a part of Marian devotion.
    Attempted communication with a saint who’s gone on can result in contact with an unlean spirit. (If we or an angel from heaven, as Paul says, should proclaim to you a gospel other than what you’ve received, let them be cursed.
    Does that address it satisfactorily?

  • You made the claim scripture is such that it doesn’t permit the evolution of such an idea; you still have not supported that claim, let alone the rest of it.

    Support your claim– you have yet to cite a single specific writing.

  • OK then. Scripture delineates Mary—by the end of the BIblical narrative we have an idea of her. That idea is completely out of harmony with what evolved through Roman Catholic tradition. So the N.T. gives us this story and through it we learn of her role. Then the Roman church describes her another way, affording to her a different character, new attributes and a place in the cult of worship. The Roman church takes i.t upon itself to do all of this. Of course it happens gradually, but that’s the issue–it sort of comes in through the back door.
    Scripture also doesn’t permit devotion to angels or those who’ve gone on to glory. E.G. Paul warns readers not to get caught up in the worship of angels. Saints who go to be with the Lord are now absent from us E.G. to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Do you need more verses?

  • “As for the year 500, I don’t really think so.”

    I know you don’t think so and you are wrong. Popular devotion to Mary long predated the Council of Ephesus in 431. Here are a few quotations from early Church Fathers regarding the Blessed Virgin:

    http://www.catholic.com/library/Mary_Mother_of_God.asp

  • Sal,

    Point to me in the Bible where the Catholic Church put what Mary said as “gospel”?

    Do you even know how Sacred Scripture was put together?

  • Some of those quotations are aptly spoken. Others are idolotrous. But these things didn’t crystallize into dogma until very much later.

  • Some Marian dogma wasn’t actually pronounced officially until the nineteenth century.

  • That’s why I don’t consider teh Roman church as having had a Marian DEVOTION by 500 AD.

  • Sal, you have still not supported your claim with the actual writings.

    Is it really this difficult? Why do you keep trying to change the topic?

  • By actual writings do you mean scripture? or the quotations at the website?

  • “Some of those quotations are aptly spoken. Others are idolotrous.”

    And that is your problem. The Christian Church from the earliest times is the Catholic Church. Marian devotion is not something that came about in the Middle Ages, but is something that existed from the earliest times, just like belief in the real presence, confession as a sacrament, etc. Blessed Cardinal Newman said that to be deep into history is to cease to be Protestant. Hold whatever beliefs you wish, but it is intellectually dishonest to attempt to separate the Catholic Church from the early Church. The two are one and the same.

  • I say again:
    give your specific sources.

    Over and over again, you offer different versions of “I think scripture means” without even offering chapter and verse of what you claim as source.

    Again, as I have from my first reply to you:
    How about some citations with exactly where it’s departed and why you think things are impossible or obvious?
    and
    You still haven’t offered the citations and reasoning.

  • Sirs:

    I am an historian–I hold a degree in European history. Of course, we don’t want to be guilty of beoing ahistoric-I understand where the cardinal was coming from. That’s why I don’t say the Roman church departed from Christianity at once everywhere. In fact, I hold out the hope that it will be renewed and restored–even if that means people exiting it and beginning anew. Unity in the Spirit and organizational uniformity are two different things. I’m not claiming that the Catholic church was never Christian or that it can’t some day be so again. All I’m saying is that officially it departed by a certain point along the historical timeline.

    OK–WHAT CITATIONS / VERSES DO YOU THINK YOU NEED FOR PROOF THAT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH WRONGLY INNOVATED AND OVERREACHED?

    Thanks.

  • Sal, you made claims, claims about readings from a single text.

    Prove it. Stop trying to hand-wave it away, stop trying to shift the conversation, stop trying to shift the burden of evidence.

    We even narrowed it down so you can focus, laser-like, on a single subtopic: scripture is such that it doesn’t permit the evolution of such an idea, that idea being how the modern Church treats Mary.

  • First John concludes with this exhortation: keep away from anything that might take God’s place in your hearts—another translation has it as keep away from idols (I paraphrase).

    Romans 1:25 says: they traded the truth of God for a lie and worshiped and served created things rather than the creator who is forever praised.

  • Of course it can be reversed–where would one get the assumption that one could innovate concerning Mary? After all, the thought never crossed MY mind.
    Do you see what I’m saying here?

  • Sal,

    The burden of proof is upon you to prove your theory.

    (18) And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. (19) I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

    –Holy Gospel of Saint Matthew 16:18-19

    I have to go meet up with a friend, but I’ll be back in three hours and see if you can provide any evidence at all, historical or scriptural.

  • Argument and citation, Sal.

    Throwing out a paraphrase and a single out of context verse is not even a decent citation, let alone an argument, and is far from strong enough for the statements you offered when you started.

    Romans 1:25 (context)
    25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

    1 John 5:13-21
    13I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. 14This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. 15And if we know that he hears us—whatever we ask—we know that we have what we asked of him.
    16If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that. 17All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.

    18We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one cannot harm him. 19We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one. 20We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true—even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

    21Dear children, keep yourselves from idols.

  • Sir, it’s really very simple I think. I’m not one of those Protestants who wants always to begin and end with scriptural verses as if the whole debate were in relation to a scientifically precise or logical puzzle. I’m supposing, and I believe rightly, that to evolve a sense or definition of Mary beyond scripture is unwarranted (and that to elevate her to a place of status beyond that to which the Christian story itself has placed her is to commit error). Once again, I think it’s really about what the Bible has to way, but not necessarily in some precise or literal way. When we read the gospels a certain idea about Mary ought to emerge in peoples’ minds. We all ought to share a basic conception of her and that conception, regardless of faith tradition, goes something like this: Mary walked with God. She faithfully waited upon the Lord and when He spoke she listened and responded with obedience. Hence God chose her as a vessel through which Christ was born into the world. Now Mary, because she was holy–a child of God–is with him in heaven. And of course, this is in itself totallyt awesome. But scripture has here given us a portrait of Mary which must reign us in, so to speak. We are not at liberty to devise a radically new conception of her. Neither are we free to create a cult of devotion around her. The story itself has bound us you see–unless of course one wishes to rewrite the story.

  • Sir, it’s really very simple I think.

    That is probably the root of the problem: you made a claim of evidence, when it is really just an “I think.”

    You stated that it was not permitted by scripture.

    Now, you say that it’s not in “some precise or literal way.”

    Again, I ask:
    can you give evidence and argument, as you claimed, from the New Testament?

  • Now concerning Peter, the keys, the church, etc., all of this is used as a figure of speech. God wants to communicate to his followers that Peter in his weakness is strong; though he appears timid, God mightily works in him. Christ has Peter say what Christ already knows is in his heart–Jesus is the Christ–the Messiah–the Anointed One. And if he is, we can go nowhere else. Regardless of what others say, Peter at this moment acknowledges his Lord. And it is upon that Rock (not Peter alone who has been considered but a pebble, but Peter plus his confession: that Rock) that CHrist will build his church. And his church will not be overcome–it’s victorious in the Christ of God.
    Now the keys given are a sign of the authority which belongs to the church–the church is the pillar and ground of the truth and what is decided there, if it be God’s will, is then ratified in heaven.

  • My use of “I think” was in an effort to sound polite.
    I’m sorry if that was misunderstood.

  • And my quote of it was a simple rhetorical device to politely point out that you have still not supported your claims with anything but more claims.

    You say you have a degree in history; would your professors have really let you get away with this personal experience as proof? Hand-waving away any need for evidence? Broad and grandiose statements, rather than reason and the actual sources?

  • When blogging it just simply isn’t practical. And I don’t have books at hand.
    However, if you’ve read everything I’ve written, it’s all based upon written sources–we’re not talking about personal experience here, at least as far as I can tell.

  • The evidence I have may not have been presented in the form you would prefer, but it is there. Go back through the dialogue and you’ll be able to glean lots of evidence.

  • And I don’t have books at hand.

    The site I linked has a huge number of Bible versions.

    You made claims about the New Testament. There’s the books. Go for it.

    . Go back through the dialogue and you’ll be able to glean lots of evidence.

    If it is there, why do you not glean it yourself, organize it and post?

    When blogging it just simply isn’t practical.

    It’s incredibly easy; here is a page that explains how to do links, here is code for formating the text. (A list usable of HTML tags is below the comment box, as well.)
    You can also simply cite Bible verses and version.

  • I’ve already given you food for thought. I’d like you to digest some of it in Christian love.

    If you haven’t already caught the gist of what I’m saying by now, the issue may have to do with one of the following:
    1. Differing paradigms—and here I include how people understand the role of tradition and the nature of the chruch and such things.
    2. Style of argumentation–what I’m noticing is that you seek to communicate and search for evicdence in a certain way.
    a. literal approach (perhaps similar to the way in which fundamentalists debate) and I’m outside that trajectory somewhat.
    b. use of sources cited on the spot and reasoning greatly on the level of particulars. I’m not Thomistic. I think Aquinas’ approach is highly problematic. To wish always to think in Aristotelian cateogories—I’m goin g to be honest with you—it’snot really the Christian apologetic. Neither is a platonistic approach. To let the Bible simply inform our thinking is probably the best way to go and I think I’ve been assuming that’s the way to debate. And I think you’ve been assuming it’s not. That may be part of the issue too.
    What do you think?

  • I’ve already given you food for thought.

    No, you made claims and failed to support them.

    When challenged, you tried to change the topic, shift the conversation, shift the burden of evidence, use an appeal to authority to bolster your standing and then tried to claim you had already given enough information.

    This is not food for thought, this is standard operating procedure for those who are not accustomed to having to support their claims with anything but bluster.

    There is also a rather thick ribbon of attempts to appeal to emotion or ad hominems. (Implying that offering quotes to support a claim is something “those” Protestants do, frequent urging to ‘read closely’ or again, etc)

    You have made claims.
    Support them.

  • OK—in 2 Corinthians Chapter 11 verses 3 and 4 it reads: But I fear that somehow your pure and undivided devotion to Christ will be corrupted just as Eve was deceived by the cujnign ways of the serpent. You happily put up with whatever anyone tells you, even if they preach a different jesus than the one we preah, or a different kind of spirit than the one you received, or a different kind of gospel than the one you believed.

    Now, things don’t usually occur in exactly the same way. But a similar theme was underway here in the early church. Defection can and does come from within the ranks. Things change. People change. Ideas change. Organizational structure changes. Paul wrote to churches that were dynamically changing. Some were orthodox in some ways. Some were quite unorthodox in some ways. Some were beset with problems and in danger of death. A church can go through the stages we do–it begins, grows, sickens and dies. The universal church of course continues.

  • Another example–check out Revelation Chaps. 1-3 where John addresses the seven churches of Asia Minor. Each is held to the standard. The last one (Laodicea) is not lively–its lampstand removed. A church, such as the church at Rome, can die. So can a local Baptist church.

  • But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve 4 by his cunning, your thoughts may be corrupted from a sincere (and pure) commitment to Christ.
    4
    For if someone comes and preaches another Jesus 5 than the one we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it well enough.
    5
    6 For I think that I am not in any way inferior to these “superapostles.”
    6
    Even if I am untrained in speaking, I am not so in knowledge; in every way we have made this plain to you in all things. 7
    7

    Ironic you should quote this, as you are showing up and trying to tell us other than what they passed down.

    You do not make an argument for any of the claims you made, either Roman Catholicism represents a radical departure from original/authentic Christianity. or that our respect for Mary is not possible, due to the New Testament.

  • More examples: 2 Timothy Chap. 3 verses 14-16 read: But you must remain faithful to the things you have been taught. You know they are true for you know you can trust those who taught you. You have been taught the holy Scriptures form childhood, and they have given you the wisdom to receive the salvation that tcomes by trusting in Christ Jesus.l All Scriptre is inspired by God iand is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives. IT CORRECTS US WHEN WE ARE WRONG ADN TEACHES US TO DO WHAT IS RIGHT. (So it is a kind of measuring rod, if you will).

  • Revelation chapters 1-3?

    As evidence that “a Church can die”?

    This is not “another” example, this is grasping at straws.

  • Here is a further example: 2 Timothy Chapter 4 verses 3-4 read; For a time is coming when people will no longer listen to sound and wholesome teaching. They will follow their own desires and will look for teachers who will tell them whativer their itching ears want to hear. They will reject the truth and chase after myths.

    SO–PEOPLES CONCEPTION OF TRUTH ERODES—-THE SITUATION IS ALWAYS DYNAMIC AND PRECARIOUS FOR ANY SINGLE CHURCH.

  • All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
    17
    so that one who belongs to God may be competent, equipped for every good work.

    Still, you do not make your argument.

    Organize your quotes and argument and post an argument and citation that actually supports even one of your claims.

  • Paul warns his listeneres and readers–the warning is in favor of a conservative tendancy—resist radical innovation.

  • Like, say, some guy on a message board that claims that his reading of scripture is true and the Church is radically altered into a form that is not in keeping with the New Testament, yet either cannot or will not organize and cite anything to support his claims?

  • There will come a time when people will condemn marriage and the eating of certain foods.

    The Chruch of Rome has done both those things.

    I’m not saying it was a dirrect prophecy pertaining jsut to tthat. But when Paul or someone states something like that, you can bet it will be a problem in at least one place somehwere down the road.

  • Now you’re not even trying. Ancient, lame, and doesn’t match up with your prior claims.

  • YOUR NOT PLAYING BY YOUR OWN RULES.

    You wish to be very rigorous and logical. We’re not dealing with a scientific treatise here. Neither is it a mathematical equation. We’re discussing matters of faith.

    Now I’ve given you something very substantial whcih you’ve chosen to write off:
    Paul prophecied people would come along and forbid marriage and the eating of certain foods. He warned his listeners and readers of this.

    THEN I STATED THAT THE ROMAN CHURCH AT SOME POINT ACTUALLY DID THIS.

    There marriage pronouncement still holds for clergy.

    I’m not sure as to the rules concerning food at this point.

    When Paul brings something like that up, it means it’s going to happen at least once in the future and that people need to tend toward conservatism–resisting serious innovation.

    When a church introduces things that are fundamentally new, it can cease to be a church in the proper sense. I’ve givben you several verses where the Bible expresses this point: A church can cease to be a church because people from within its own ranks introduced new teaching. The church will in that case have sickened and died.

  • Paul was a former tax collector, if he said such a thing then as likely as not he was predicting the rise of global statism, opposed to authentic Christian ministry, such as we are witnessing in our own lifetimes, i.e. the promotion of so-called “homosexual marriage,” that is no more than a thinly-veiled attempt to eviscerate monogamous marriage as it has been known throughout civilized history, and the prohibition by civil authorities against individuals consuming whatever foods or substances that they choose, something that would have been strongly authoritarian even under Roman pagan imperialist standards.

  • Not playing by my own rules?

    I did not state “rules,” I am simply asking, as I have for several hours, that you give citation and a coherent argument for the radical claims you have made.

    You consistently fail to do this, no matter what help I offer.

    Your attempts to bully and manipulate are as pathetic as they are obvious, and you simply cannot manage to stick to a subject, nor can you grasp that you saying “I stated” is not proof.

    You made factual claims, and you keep trying to back them up with your own authority, and seem to be getting frustrated when that is not accepted.

    You eventually threw up a handful of verses that were slightly related, grabbed an old anti-Catholic saw. (which is extensively debunked at the link, chapter and verse)

    When that didn’t work, you threw a fit and tried to claim cheating.

    Make your argument, and support it.

  • Linus–I think you are thinking of one of the other apostles.

    Foxfier–I’ve already made many arguments and have supported them too.

    A rigorously logical approach will not get at the core of the issue. It’s not mathematics and it’s not even science. A Spirit-guided and prayerful reading of scripture is in order. What we should be after, as I see it, is the morphology or grammar of things. When you see the broader shape of Christianity, the incidentals will fall into place.

    Peace

  • No one can pull one over on Foxfier 🙂

    Hands down the best debater here at TAC.

  • Now I shall retire. I’m in need of some nourishment and a good night’s rest.

    The Lord bless all of you!
    Praise to God!

  • Bravo Foxfier! If you ever wanted to go over to the Dark Side and become an attorney, you would be formidable in cross examination!

  • *blush*

    Just tired of folks dancing around going “I can, I can… I did, didn’t you see it, you fool?!”

  • If sal is a history teacher, I’m super sorry for her students.
    If what she has posted here is her sum knowledge of debating the Truth of the Catholic Church, the kids she teaches will be loaded up with subjective interpretations of what is written by any historian.

    Like what the revisionists are teaching in Japan WRT the attack on Pearl Harbour. And of course, the Crusades were a cowardly and unprovoked attack on the peace loving, Jew and Christian friendly Muslims of that time.

  • Someone has not paid attention to the comments. Christianity can not be decided through logical debate. It is a matter of faith–and faith will beget understanding. As Anselm stated: I believe because it is absurd.

  • As Spengler remarked, Anselm was able to say that because the West was in its “springtime.” But at a later point Aquinas would have us tied up in syllogisms. And that is what I’m trying to argue against. If you are strictly bound by logic, Christianity will make no sense whatsoever. Even Jesuitical theory acknowledges that a point exists where one must ‘make the leap.’

  • 1) “Credo quia absurdum”– “I believe because it is absurd”– is a famous misquote of Tertullian’s credibile est, quia ineptum est .

    2) Anselm is associated with the notion that God is “that than which nothing greater can be thought”.

    Anselm was famous for apply reason to faith.

  • What has Athens to do with Jerusalem?

  • To claim the authority of the scriptures, you have to actually use them, Sal. Not flail around and talk about you, you, you.

  • Judaism was a faith-based religion. People believed in God–they placed their hope and trust in him. He seemed hidden as much as he seemed revealed. Jesus claimed he was his son which made further demands upon faith–what reason could make sense of that?

  • The scriptures are authoritative; why have you still not used them to prove your claims?

  • When Isaac was called upon to sacrifice his son through whom his progeny would come–and thereby the promises–reason was of little if any value. Of course Abraham reasoned that God could raise the dead as we learn in Hebrews, but that in itself really amounted to faith. For God to give life to the dead and to do so at that time in God’s plan was a remarkably faith-inspired idea—one that a person would not arrive at through logic.

  • Well, yes they are authoritative—I’m glad we agree on that!

    I guess if you wish to prove a claim in relation to Mary it would be this: Where in the authoritative N.T. do we find a devotion to her, the ever-virgin status, the assumption, etc.?

    So the burden, I believe, would be on one to explain how the ideas arose and became dogmatized.

  • Also, given St. Augustine’s insight which we generally term original sin, how could Mary be sinless? Applying logic, and here goes because you wanted this, each parent before here would have to hae been without sin going back to aDAM AND eVE. You see what I mean?

  • Where in the Bible do you get this sola scriptura notion that it must be in the NT? Do you not understand that “authoritative” means true and accurate, not “the only possible source”?

    The Church was established by the Bible; it is on you to support your claim that she has, as you originally claimed, radically changed.

  • Stop trying to change the subject, Sal.

  • If a church begets notions that are not already in the canon, and the canon is closed, and no one assumes it’s ongoing, and then there are these novel notions——tell me, is one to assume they are a continuation of Christian thought?
    I think not.
    If the notions are novel, and Paul was forever warning his congregants of that potential, then Christianity is being altered.

  • AND THEN WE ARE IN DANGER OF WHAT PAUL SPOKE REGARDING A NEW OR DIFFERENT GOSPEL—ONE THAT HAS NOT BEEN ALREADY PREACHED.

  • “Christianity can not be decided through logical debate.”

    So is that your premise or your conclusion?

  • You jump from “the Bible is authoritative” to all of that.

    You’re trying to change the subject, again.

    AND THEN WE ARE IN DANGER OF WHAT PAUL SPOKE REGARDING A NEW OR DIFFERENT GOSPEL—ONE THAT HAS NOT BEEN ALREADY PREACHED.

    Like the one that you are promoting, since you have thus far been unable to support your claims.

  • Because it seems to me that you have a premise (a false one, but a premise still), from which you draw a conclusion.

    It seems to me you’re making a logical argument.

    All Fox is doing is asking you to support your premise with facts. She’s not even asking for a logical argument. She’s asking for facts.

    If you don’t even know the difference between a fact and a syllogism, then it’s no wonder no one can make any sense of you.

  • Sal-
    Yeah, I guess you might be right. I’m more of a James man myself, and certainly no expert on the Bible. It was a stretch for me to try and answer your claims, given your total lack of scriptural reference or even proper grammar. I’ll stand back and let others beat their head against the brick wall for now.

  • You have established an apologetic approach that is logically-based, I think. And you wish for the argument to proceed along those lines.

    What I am saying is that I am not an advocate of Acquinas and I don’t see matters of the faith in light of logig.

    The otehr issue concerns the quotation of verses. I can not quote a verse in support of something else, at least not usually. That verse is set in a context of its own.

    Regarding premises, yes there is one’s premise concerning tradition and when followed out to its conclusion, it yields separate ones obviously.

  • So your premise is probably the following: The church yields tradition and that tradition becomes authoritative over time given certain qualifications.

    Mine is the following: The church has tradition (more in the form of baggage) and tradition is more or less ooptional, sometimes desirable and at other times undesirable.

    We need periodically to clean house, so to speak. Semper reformanda.

  • You have established an apologetic approach that is logically-based, I think.

    I haven’t established anything in this conversation.

    All I have done is asked you to support your statements, using the Bible.

    You have still failed to do this, and keep trying to change the subject, throwing out random verses, well known slanders, radical misquotes and out of context quotes.

    Support your claims– that the Church is radically different and that Marian devotions are absolutely impossible developments from the text of scripture– with the New Testament.

  • I should clarify: asked you to support your statements about the contents of the Bible with actual statements from the Bible.

    I’m not even limiting you to the New Testament.

  • So following your format, the conclusions of the two premises would be

    yours: tradition can potentially be on a par with scripture.

    mine: tradition is always subservient to scripture and must be constantly measured against it.
    The upshot here is that tradition is never authoritative, normative, or binding for God’s people. It is always discardable and in fact must be discarded when it becomes a hindrance, e.g. something that conflicts witih the overall tenor of God’s written story–not necessarily a single verse of it.

    Hope that helps.

  • So we’re not looking at quotes here. We’re dealing with God’s overall story–the larger narrative of his plan with humanity. From Genesis to Revelation we get a sense of the characters, i.e. Mary.

    Mary is in the tradition of a number of excellent faith heroes. She listens for God’s word and responds with obedience. The song speaks of her as the O.T. songs speak of faith giants–Hail, etc. etc. Blessed art thou among women————-in other words she is chosen and special and God works in and through her.

    Now having said that, she is not without sin, she is not–as far as I can tell based on the context of Jesus’ discussion with people in the N.T.—ever-virigin, she is not assumed up like Enoch who is just taken.
    She is not there for a Rosary to develop around her–the symbolism of the Rose does not apply to her on the basis of what we learn in Scripture.

    She is a woman of sorrows and faith, of great joy and pain, and she is ranked with such as were like her.

    But, and there is a big but here, she is not one that scripture anticipated a devotion to.

  • You still have not backed up your claims, Sal.

    You said:
    Roman Catholicism represents a radical departure from original/authentic Christianity. I’m not supposing Christianity doesn’t ‘develop’ or progress through time and assume new forms. But Catholicism under Rome has actually altered the essence of Christianity.

    Show the radical departure.
    Offer the scriptures that place the Church outside of true Christianity.

    From reading teh New Testament, no one would ever get a sense of Mary that is understood at Rome. In fact, scripture is such that it doesn’t permit the evolution of such an idea. Neither would one assume a devotion to Mary based on a faithful and informed reading of the N.T.

    Supply the scripture that will not permit the evolution of the idea of Mary as she is understood in Rome.
    Offer actual readings which would ban such a development.

  • The symbolism of the Rose emerges from later Western culture. Around 1100 or so you had what was called the cult of romance and the rose was big. The rose became a tool in the church’s arsenel. It was baptized as it were–given new meaning and eventually applied to Mary.

    Mary was actaully in all probability arranged to be with Joseph through family. So the rose is very much out of place there.

    Because it was ‘sanctified’ the rose finds a place in high literature, including Dante’s paradiso and one can even detect it in cathedral architecture.

    But that is of course all medieval—definitely not a part of the Jewish world of Mary’s day.

  • New Testament, chapter and verse, Sal.

    Your attempts to change the topic will not work.

    You made big claims, and it’s really obvious to all of us here that you are either unwilling or unable to justify them.

  • In case I have not done so already, I want to get across the idea that we can not rely on verses or quote minor passages–at least not most of the time.

    Each verse is enmeshed in surrounding verses and so on until, working your way outward by degrees, where back at the whole bible again. And this leads me to my point. I’m sorry if it seems circular, but the Bible IS the word of God.

    Now as such, we must read it from cover to cover and take the story on faith.

    If you wish to work from a verse or two it won’t make sense. That verse was never meant to function on its own. It hasn’t got sufficient meaning by itself. It takes on a ‘full’ sense within the larger context, eventually the whole Bible.

    Now I understand the Fundamentalists like to work the other way–but I don’t approve. Meet me on terms of the Bible, not on Fundamentalist terms. I’m not a Fundamentalist and I don’t think you are either.

  • In case I have not done so already, I want to get across the idea that we can not rely on verses or quote minor passages–at least not most of the time.

    Your initial statement about a faithful reading of scripture is counter to this new claim.

    Support your initial claim about the NT, Sal.

    If you cannot support your statement, you shouldn’t make it, and since you did, you should say “I cannot support my claim from Scripture.”

  • Like I said, way back when:
    Barring any sort of rational support, you’re in the “I don’t like it so I’m grasping” camp.

  • So the Bible presents us with a story—a story of God, people, and what happens throughout their interaction. From reading the story we get a sense of our place within it. As N. T. Wright commented, we are called upon to improvise. Now I would like to add that this improvisation does not constitute license for introducing something essenially new.

    This kind of matter is not like adding two and two.

    We’re dealing with how people understand tradition.

    My claim is that any tradition that becomes authoritative and / or conflicts with what the Bible has already stated is a tradition that needs to be scrapped.

  • The N. T. reveals that Jesus’ had earthly siblings.
    Hence, Mary could not be ever-virgin.

    There now is a concrete proof of what you have been fishing for.

    The Bible states outrightly that no one is without sin.

    Mary was therefore sinful.

  • You have made a big deal that the scriptures are authoritative.

    Respect their authority and cite them, Sal.

    We get the idea, you think you’re right. What a shock. Support your claims.

    You’re quick enough to make new claims, yet are unwilling to defend what you say you believe….

  • The N. T. reveals that Jesus’ had earthly siblings.

    Wrong, but at least it’s specific.

    There now is a concrete proof of what you have been fishing for.

    No, that is a claim. You’ve offered lots of vague yet sweeping claims.

    If you have a history degree as claimed, you should be able to tell the difference. You should be able to make a claim, support it with evidence, and offer sources for that evidence with great ease.

    I’ve given you two different sites with Bibles and the tools to put in the hyperlinks.

    You cannot even manage to cite chapter and verse.

  • For heaven’s sake, even Jesus quoted Scripture to make his points.

    The truth is really ever so simple. All of his teachings, all of his points, all of his ways – simplicity incarnate.

    It is the heretics who complicate things, who invent hidden or alternate meanings, because the simple truths are too hard to digest.

    Jesus established the Catholic Church when he gave the keys of heaven and an unfailing faith to St. Peter. He who hears Jesus, hears the Church. He gave the apostles and their successors the power to bind and to loose, and promised that He would be with them until the end of time. It is upon these very simple and clear promises of Christ that the Church has the authority to proclaim and clarify the truths revealed in Scripture, with the aid of the Holy Spirit.

    Why don’t you read the Gospels some time.

  • MARY SAID, MY SPIRIT REGJOICES IN GOD MY SAVIOR.

    HENCE, MARY ALSO NEEDED A SAVIOR LIKE EVERYONE ELSE.

    I DIDN’T WANT TO HAVE TO BRING THESE THINGS UP BUT YOU KEEP ASKING FOR IT.

  • So I’m citing an exact quote–it’s in what you call the magnificat. Check it out.

    Thanks and peace to you.

  • In Mary’s song, Mary rejoices in God her savior (kind of like when we call on Jesus). He was her savior and redeemer. She was a part of Israel and in Adam–so therefore in need of the redemption that came through Christ. She looked forward to teh promises with anticipation, thanksgiving and praise!

    Shalom!

  • Sal
    you are not citing scripture, nor are you making your case.

    Stop trying to change the subject, and just offer support and an argument from scripture for either of your original two claims.

  • Marian devotion in all of its aspects grew up over centuries–it usually emerged from the bottom. Then it gradually gained acceptance among the elite. It was accelerated by the need to evangelize and gain support. It also found acceptance due to its similarities to many of the goddess cults of pagan Europe. Marian devotion has about it the pomp and glitz of the Orient, and probably can be traced to the same place of origin from which there arrived such cults as the Mater Dolorosa, etc.

  • Mary’s song, Luke, chap. 1 verse 47 and it reads:
    How my spirit rejoices in God my Savior!
    Holy Bible–New Living Translation, C.2007

    Mary looked to God as her personal savior.

    That is plainly noticable.

  • Getting closer to a decent argument, but that still doesn’t support your claim that the New Testament makes modern Marian devotions unthinkable as a progression from the scriptures.

    Even though it’s an improvement, it’s still rather vague, as well as not having any citations– Biblical or otherwise.

    This article on the history of Marian devotion is a good example of how you could form your argument.

    Hey, if you get it all organized and linked, you can even put it up to enlighten others! Google offers free sites.

  • To follow up in case it has not already been deduced, a person in need of a Savior is one who has sin.

  • I’ll work on that all tomorrow. But you’ve not responded to the argument I posed.

  • So Mary had sin. She was not immaculate.

    Jesus had half-brothers. Mary was not always virgin.

    I think James was one of Jesus’ half-brothers.

  • In context, from after Elizabeth’s greeting to the visiting Mary:
    And Mary said: 16 “My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord;
    47
    my spirit rejoices in God my savior.
    48
    For he has looked upon his handmaid’s lowliness; behold, from now on will all ages call me blessed.
    49
    The Mighty One has done great things for me, and holy is his name.

    That Mary was a believer is far from a shock.

    It’s rather the reason she agreed to carry our Lord, and has nothing to do with the Immaculate Conception.

    But you’ve not responded to the argument I posed.

    You have not made an argument from scripture, as you repeatedly claimed you could. You’ve barely even quoted the Bible, and when you have, it’s been disjointed, out of context and without a framework to match it up with your claims.

    I will not build you an argument and then tear it down myself.

  • More claims, without support, Sal.

    Look at this and this if you need help to figure out how to format a citation in to your claims; those are two different formats for citing scripture in support of a claim, and then forming the result into an argument.

  • The cult of Mary is practiced because of the definition the church at Rome affords to tradition.

    Paul implies a much more static notion of tradition when he states, “hold on to the traditions you’ve been given,” and “don’t be moved by this or that apparantly new thing,” and so on.

    So new traditions (those succeeding the canon) must be carefully viewed to see if they are in harmony with scripoture. If they aren’t, they need to be scrapped.

  • The symbolism of the sacred heart and the rose have been wrongly applied to Mary. They do not match up with anything concerning Mary in scripture.

    1. The sacred heart is nowhere found there.
    2. The rose had to do with romantic love.

    The symbols surrounding her cultic statue relate to the woman clothed in the sun standing on the moon, etc. in Revelation who can just as easily be translated as Israel/the Chruch.

    Yet, the official statue (the one that’s duplicated for the Roman Catholic altar and that yields little variety from one to another) has Mary appearing as the lady in John’s vision.

    Can you asnwer why that is?