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PopeWatch: Betrayal

VATICAN-POPE-AUDIENCE

 

A sad feature of Catholic history in the contemporary world is the selling out of Catholics by the Vatican in the name of ecumenism and/or diplomacy.  Sandro Magister at his blog Chiesa, gives us a current example:

 

 

ROME, February 20, 2015 – He had a lot to be sorry about, Pope Francis, with the bishops of Ukraine who recently arrived in Rome for their periodic “ad limina” visit.

To these bishops and to their priests and faithful, when two weeks ago Jorge Mario Bergoglio had denounced to the world the war that is devastating their country, the words he had used had sounded terrible. “Fratricidal violence,” the pope had called it, putting everyone on a par, aggressors and victims.

And it had been even worse when Francis had looked up from the text and added on his own: “When I hear the words ‘victory’ or ‘defeat’ I feel a great pain, a great sadness in my heart. Those are not the right word; the only right word is ‘peace.’ Think about it, this is a war among Christians! All of you have the same baptism. You are fighting among Christians. Think about this scandal.”

The fact that Bergoglio has a soft spot for Russia had already been seen with the outbreak of war in Syria, when he called for a day of prayer and fasting to oppose the armed intervention of the United States and France against the regime of Damascus, and Vladimir Putin publicly praised him.

Then there is the influence of the ecumenical factor: of the 200 million Orthodox Christians in the world, 150 million belong to the patriarchate of Moscow and “of all Rus’,” and it is therefore with Moscow above all that the pope wants to cultivate good relations.

But the fact that the aggression of Russia against Ukraine, the armed occupation of its eastern border, the annexation of Crimea should have left the pope indifferent to “victory” or “defeat,” was intolerable for the sentiments of Ukrainian Catholics. All the more so in that these words of Pope Francis promptly brought the applause of Moscow, this time not from Putin but from Orthodox patriarch Kirill, who also has jurisdiction over the Orthodox of Ukraine.

Memories of the persecution of Ukrainian Catholics on the part of the Soviet regime are too fresh. Their Church, after the second world war, was literally annihilated, with countless martyrs killed in the most atrocious ways, crucified, walled up alive, drowned in boiling water.

It was the fall of the Berlin Wall in 1989 that brought this Church out of the catacombs. But its efforts to regain breathing space have been difficult and are still incomplete, with churches and homes in the hands of Orthodox bishops and priests.

Today the almost five million Ukrainian Catholics know very well that they are the true obstacle to the encounter between the pope of Rome and the patriarch of Moscow. But they will not agree to be sacrificed on the altar of this ecumenical dream.

Ukrainian Catholics are resisting in the western part of the country, in Galicia, in Lviv. But in occupied Crimea and the Donbas, the repression has taken another ruthless turn.

The Vatican nuncio in Kiev, American archbishop Thomas E. Gullickson, appointed by Benedict XVI in 2011, has compared it to that of the Soviets in 1946, “with the complicity of the Orthodox brethren and the blessing of Moscow.” He even evoked “the lessons of ISIS and the so-called caliphate in Iraq and Syria,” to say that “such a tragedy” could also happen elsewhere.

The reports that the nuncio is sending to Rome are detailed and alarming. And Ukrainian Catholics have been furious to see how none of this has appeared in the words of Pope Francis. It is their conviction that in the Roman curia as well, as in Ukraine, the pro-Russian party has free rein and is influencing the pope.

On February 10 the secretariat of state responded to the protests of Ukrainian Catholics with a note, to “clarify that the pope has always intended to address all the interested parties, trusting in the sincere effort of each one to apply the agreements reached by common accord and recalling the principle of international law.”

But this slight reference to legality was certainly not enough to worry Moscow, certain by now that its annexation of Crimea has in fact been accepted by all, including the Vatican, and that for the Donbas, Russianized and with no more Catholics, the same thing could happen.

Go here to read the rest.  Popes have a lot on their plates and often have to take a very long view of the issues they confront.  However, the long view too often means that Catholics in a tight place are often left to fend for themselves, the Vatican fearful of speaking up for them and thereby endangering other concerns.  PopeWatch understands this, but he also understands that we can be so eager to come to terms with our adversaries, that we leave our Catholic brothers and sisters to suffer, while the Pope engages in a global chess game with forces that hate the Church.  Even worse is when a Pope seems completely indifferent to the concerns of local Catholics and eager to come to terms with their oppressors.

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Donald R. McClarey

Cradle Catholic. Active in the pro-life movement since 1973. Father of three and happily married for 35 years. Small town lawyer and amateur historian. Former president of the board of directors of the local crisis pregnancy center for a decade.

59 Comments

  1. Father of seven,
    Which will happen when St. Peter’s Basilica gets a suicide bomber….since terror is about video and iconic target sites.

  2. The Catholic relationship with the orthodox is crucial. Europe does not help the Christian numbers, because many have discarded their Christian heritage. The only numbers that are growing strong are those in the Islamic nations- not too far from Russia and Ukraine; and of course Atheist China.

    It’s like the idiocy of the Christians in the Middle East- the pettiness of the Orthodox and Catholic rivalries has distracted from the impending Muslim assault that is wiping the Middle East of all of its Christians. To the point where the Lebanese Catholic Patriarch is making it harder for a Maronite to immigrate outside of Lebanon- with Christians being in the minority (something unprecedented since the constitution says that the President must be Catholic Maronite). And urging Lebanese ex-patriots to register their Lebanese citizenship- because they fear that one day the change of the Constitution could be forced by a growing majority Muslim population that would want a Muslim President.

    Anyway I digress. Sorry. I guess I’m talking about strength in numbers here. The theme is universal.

    The bigger picture, is for the unity between the Catholics and the Orthodox to be strengthened. The Muslim and Atheist threat is far greater. Do we not want Orthodox Russia on our side? Putin will not be there forever (I hope).

    We, Catholics and Orthodox- Christians- both believe in the One Risen Lord Jesus Christ.

  3. Constant capitulation to political correctness at home and abroad is dragging Christianity from the twilight of tolerance worship into the deeper darkness of divine diversity. Soon our cry in the night can only be “Come Lord Jesus”.

  4. Ezabelle wrote, “The only numbers that are growing strong are those in the Islamic nations- not too far from Russia and Ukraine”

    About a seventh of the population of the Russian Federation is Muslim; the North Caucasus is overwhelmingly so. Muslims make up about a fifth of the population of Moscow.

    Since the 1980s many Muslim counties have seen a sharp decline in population growth, paralleling the growth in female literacy. Iran, Lebanon, Tunisia, and Turkey all have Total Fertility Rates at or below the replacement level of 2.1. Those showing the most rapid growth, Niger with a TFR of 7.1 and Mali with a TFR of 6.3 are also the poorest and most backward.

  5. THE Russians have always been an oppressive people. My maternal Finnish grandfather immigrated from the old country back in the early 1900’s. One of the main reasons he did so was to get away from the Russian oppression of Finland. he always told my mom and her siblings the Russians can never be trusted. The 20th century proved my grandfather was right. It’s a pity that Pope Francis isn’t as smart as my grandfather.

  6. I see the fingerprints of +Kasper again. +Kasper headed up the Congregation for the Eastern Churches when +John Paul II was Pope. +Kasper’s failed mission was to get the Russian Orthodox Church Patriarch to agree to a Papal visit to Moscow. The Moscow Patriarch HATES the existence of the Ukrainian Catholic Church. He believes that the Catholic Church, specifically the Poles, used subterfuge to steal HIS flock centuries ago. Of course, the land that is present day Western Ukraine and Belarus was part of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and the then Orthodox people of the region wanted no part of the Russian czars, who were bloody and cruel.

    A visit to Moscow has been a Papal fantasy for generations, kinda like winning the Powerball and just as realistic. The Holy See has hesitated giving the UGCC Archbishop the title Patriarch because it would anger Moscow. It is worth noting that there is a tiny Russian Catholic Church, which uses the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, that is almost abandoned and forgotten by Rome because they want so badly this meeting with the MP.

    Most Catholics, even most observant Catholics in the Western world have no idea of the antipathy held by Eastern Orthodox hierarchs against the Catholic Church. There are rather few Eastern Orthodox in the United States and most Catholics can go years without seeing an Orthodox church or meeting an Eastern Orthodox. Pittsburgh is, of course, an exception. We in the West have dealt with Protestantism, which is almost nonexistent in the Christian East.

    I don’t care what the Moscow Patriarch says, thinks or does. The current Pontificate has strong words and actions only against Catholics who prefer the Missal of 1962. well, them and people involved in fracking. Invading Russians, Muslim terrorists, the LCWR…….not a peep.

  7. Michael Paterson-Seymour.: “Those showing the most rapid growth, Niger with a TFR of 7.1 and Mali with a TFR of 6.3 are also the poorest and most backward.”
    .
    Having a great number of children has no relation to being poor and or backward. The people are backward because they are poor, but they are not stupid. Carrying water from a stream or common well, no good medical care, poor diet. These effects of poverty are dehumanizing, but the number of children is not responsible for these burdens.

  8. ““When I hear the words ‘victory’ or ‘defeat’ I feel a great pain, a great sadness in my heart. Those are not the right word; the only right word is ‘peace.’ -Pope Francis ? Peace at any price ? People have a right to self defense of their homeland. There is such a thing a false peace.

  9. Cardinal Biffi preached a retreat in Feb of 2007 for B16:
    “VATICAN CITY, FEB. 28, 2007 (Zenit.org).- The Antichrist is the reduction of Christianity to an ideology, instead of a personal encounter with the Savior, says the cardinal directing the retreat which Benedict XVI is attending. Cardinal Giacomo Biffi, retired archbishop of Bologna, delivered that message during a meditation Tuesday, drawing on the work of Russian philosopher Vladimir Sergeyevich Solovyov…..
    “According to Vatican Radio’s summary of his preaching, the cardinal explained that ‘the teaching that the great Russian philosopher left us is that Christianity cannot be reduced to a set of values.
    At the center of being a Christian is, in fact, the personal encounter with Jesus Christ.’ Quoting the work Three Dialogues on War, Progress and the End of History, Cardinal Biffi told his listeners that ‘the Antichrist presents himself as pacifist…. ecologist and…. ecumenist.’
    “‘He will convoke an ecumenical council and will seek the consensus of all the Christian confessions, granting something to each one. The masses will follow him, with the exception of small groups of Catholics, Orthodox and Protestants,’ he said. The cardinal added that Solovyov says in that work: ‘Days will come in Christianity in which they will try to reduce the salvific event to a mere series of values.’
    “In his Tale of the Antichrist Solovyov foresees that a small group of Catholics, Orthodox and Protestants will resist and will say to the Antichrist:
    ‘You give us everything, except what interests us, Jesus Christ.’
    For Cardinal Biffi, this narrative is a warning: ‘Today, in fact, we run the risk of having a Christianity which puts aside Jesus with his cross and resurrection.’
    “The 78-year-old cardinal said that if Christians
    .
    ‘limited themselves to speaking of shared values they would be more accepted on television programs and in social groups. But in this way, they will have renounced Jesus, the overwhelming reality of the resurrection.’
    The cardinal said he believes that this is ‘the danger that Christians face in our days… the Son of God cannot be reduced to a series of good projects sanctioned by the prevailing worldly mentality… There are relative values, such as solidarity, love of peace and respect for nature.
    If these become absolute, uprooting or even opposing the proclamation of the event of salvation, then these values become an instigation to idolatry and obstacles on the way of salvation.”

  10. Mary de Voe wrote, “Having a great number of children has no relation to being poor and or backward.”

    I never said it did. I merely pointed out that, because they are poor and backward, Niger and Mali are a threat to no one. Developed Muslim counties, like Iran and Turkey, with powerful armed forces and an industrial infrastructure that could pose a threat to the West, are not “growing in numbers,” but have TFRs below replacement levels – Iran 1.9 and Turkey 2.0.

  11. MPS wrote:
    “Since the 1980s many Muslim counties have seen a sharp decline in population growth, paralleling the growth in female literacy. Iran, Lebanon, Tunisia, and Turkey…”

    No. Lebanon is not a Muslim country. In the same way Russia or the United States are not Muslim countries.

    As you said, Russia has a vast Muslim population, but so does the USA and the UK and Australia. But the laws of all of these countries do not reflect Islamic laws.

    In Lebanon, The President, for example, has to be a Maronite Christian, the Prime Minister a Sunni Muslim, the Speaker of the Parliament a Shi’a Muslim, the Deputy Prime Minister and the Deputy Speaker of Parliament Eastern Orthodox. It is the attempt to fairly represent the demographic distribution of the 18 recognized religious groups in government.

    Turkey had a secular government, but the head is always a Muslim because the population is predominantly made up of, Muslims. But Turkey does not abide by Sharia law. So is Turkey technically a “muslim country”?

    Syria and Israel both boarder Lebanon. And they have been direct threats to Lebanon, causing constant instability in the region. Neither have any interest in the protection or security of the Maronites or the Orthodox population. Both Muslims and Jews are indifferent. Maronites and Orthodox Christian groups need to stay focused in their unity. Particularly in their voting power.

    Lebanon is but a small representation of what is happening to Christians on a greater global level. It is in the interest of the Ukrainian Catholics, that the Pope keep the Orthodox contingents onside. I do agree, that the Pope needs to speak up for his Catholics contingents, and he should have made reference. But, I’m not sure what difference it would make in real time, to the protection of Ukraines sovereignty or its security in the region. Putin is a bully. But Obama is passive aggressive. I wander what is worse?

    Obama sits back and let’s the pro-active Putin do the pushing and shoving. And the nation with the greatest army on earth (the USA), is powerless? And the Pope is to blame?

  12. Maybe the Pope has it right and is not “selling out catholics” as you stated. He is patiently supporting what is right. The government in the Ukraine is the product of an overthrow of what the people freely elected earlier. This revolution in the Ukraine was planned and directed in a simple and predictable manner by a group you have not identified. Victoria Noodleman, or Nooland as she is now called was involved. This may give you a hint. The piece you have issued here is playing into the hands of propaganda ministers that are not our friends. Dig a little deeper. The truth is there and can be uncovered.

  13. Anzlyne: Thank you, thank you. What you have written and brought to our notice is valuable beyond expression. Thank you. I am going to save the post for my children.
    .
    God is a Trinity of Persons. A relationship with the Sovereign Person of Jesus Christ is called religion. Religion is a freedom, the first freedom inscribed and guaranteed in our First Amendment. Religion is a relationship with the Sacred Heart of Jesus, Who is Mercy and Justice and Truth. A religion without a relationship with the Person of Jesus Christ is not human.
    .
    Michael Paterson-Seymour: It is a clarification, not a criticism. I was afraid that you might take it as a criticism and I did not know how to make that actual. I am glad that you have confirmed your position, for it is true.
    .
    Children is how the Holy Spirit renews the face of the earth. You will find a correlation between the incidence of infant mortality and the incidence of conception. It is an expression of man’s will to survive. It is normal, healthy and natural. Population control violates everything human. Sorry, had to say that.

  14. Ezabelle
    Both Turkey and Lebanon have large Muslim majorities, Turkey overwhelmingly so at 98.6%, higher than the Palestinian territories (97.5%) or Syria (92.8%). A substantial majority (59.7%) of Lebanon’s population is Muslim.
    Turkey abolished the Ottoman legal system, under which Muslim and non-Muslim subjects and foreigners were all subject to different laws (or traditions having the force of law) in 1924. It adopted the Swiss Civil Code, the German Commercial Code and the Italian Penal Codes as they stood, although these have since been amended. The Constitution of 1982 declares Turkey to be a “lay, democratic and social republic.” This is taken word for work from the French Constitution of 4 October 1958.

  15. Thanks MPS
    Lebanese people are a distinct nation independent from the Arab nation. Lebanese nationalism considers the Lebanese people to be direct descendants of the Phoenician people.
    The Christian share of Lebanon’s population as of 2014 is 41%. Therefore, the country has the largest percentage of Christians of all the Middle Eastern nations. One would say that Lebanon has an “Arab face” rather than being an Arab nation.

    The constitutional remit of the President of Lebanon (a position reserved solely for a Catholic Maronite Christian) includes the role of Commander in Chief of the armed forces, as well as the sole ability to form and dissolve governments. The role of president of the Lebanese Central bank is also a position reserved for Lebanese Christians. This is owed to the historical and contemporary influence of Lebanese Christians among the key bankers of the Middle East region.

  16. Don, here is a simple test. Consider contraception, abortion, pornography, usury via IMF loans, and support for the family. Which side is the new Ukraine government on? Which side of these issues is Putin on? Over the past decades a slow change has occurred. Jesus said to judge by the fruits. Now, which side are you on?

  17. Regardless of the intentions behind it, ecumenism has turned into the universal solvent of Catholicism. Time and again, we sacrifice our identity on the altar of dialogue, and all we get in return is weaker. Should we work with other Christians? Yep. But if ecumenism means we have to regard Catholicism–or even a group of Catholics–as inconvenient, then the very concept has become a cancer.

  18. And, once again, the Pope gives another convincing impression of a man who likes other people’s children better than his own.

  19. From the link that Donald posted-
    http://www.cruxnow.com/church/2015/02/23/ukrainian-catholic-leader-urges-pope-to-be-tougher-on-russia/

    “…Shevchuk also insisted that Putin’s recent claims to be a defender of persecuted Christians in various parts of the world, especially the Middle East, ring hollow.”

    Hahahaha. Really?

    He defends global Christians, with the same effect he defends Ukraine’s Christians.

    The only thing he defends effectively is the bottom-line on Natural Gas and Oil. Ruthless.

  20. The government in the Ukraine is the product of an overthrow of what the people freely elected earlier.

    The President of the Ukraine abandoned his post when the military and the security services would not obey orders. Some overthrow. His parliamentary caucus also abandoned him. He was the only official who departed and was promptly replaced with a new elected president. (My pet peeve with Putin press agents is that they tell bald lies like the one you uttered).

  21. And, once again, the Pope gives another convincing impression of a man who likes other people’s children better than his own.

    The disreputable Mr. Sailer uses the term ‘leapfrogging loyalties’, and it’s a signature of a certain sort of bourgeois. What’s depressing about this Pope is how stereotyped his attitudes are, and not in ways proper for a bishop.

  22. Don, here is a simple test. Consider contraception, abortion, pornography, usury via IMF loans, and support for the family. Which side is the new Ukraine government on?

    The acute problems the Ukrainian government is facing (generated by Russia) involve none of these issues.

  23. Rick, you have swallowed Putin propaganda

    Wagers Rick is a consumer of alt-right opinion journalism, where this sort of stuff is the orthodoxy among writers and readers alike. You’ll recall that Thomas Fleming destroyed Chronicles subscriber base with his bizarre investment in the holy cause of violent Serb particularism (but the Rockford Institute was evidently getting just enough donations that they did not need the 14,000 subscribers who evaporated from their mailing lists). One of the periodic features of alt-right publications is an article trashing the Kosovo government. It’s so warped and perverse you begin to wonder if it is astroturf.

  24. OK, just one more test. Art, you can join in too. Which side is promoting and which side is banning gay parades? This is the litmus test of truth. Go ahead, give it a try.

  25. OK, just one more test. Art, you can join in too. Which side is promoting and which side is banning gay parades? This is the litmus test of truth. Go ahead, give it a try.

    You fancy Mr. Poroshenko has time to think about ‘Gay Pride’ parades?

  26. If people are curious as to what the term “useful idiot” means, or what constitutes one, I believe Rick has provided an excellent example. Next he will be telling us that he’s seen the future in Russia, and it works.

  27. I can tolerate insults but why not have some adult discourse here. So go ahead and check out the details. The big revolutions today involve contraception, easy divorce, abortion and gay “marriage.” So I ask you again, what are the positions of the new government in the Ukraine and Russia on these subjects and what is their apparent direction from this point? You owe it to yourself to know which side you are on. Consider it a good practice question for the big test at the end – your particular judgment.

  28. Mary, I will remember. I will try to help them when I can. Now you remember the revolution in October 1917 was Bolshevik and Lenin was involved. There is a connection with this event and the leaders driving revolution in the Ukraine today. Consider the tables turned.

  29. The big revolutions today involve contraception, easy divorce, abortion and gay “marriage.”

    And here I thought the big revolution involved beheading Christians.

  30. And here I thought the big revolution involved beheading Christians

    Well, according to Rick’s logic, ISIL and the Islamic jihadis throughout the Middle East are the good guys. After all, they are big foes of gay marriage and the like.

    Rick, adults don’t swallow the propaganda of would-be dictators. And since my reference obviously went over your head, please google Lincoln Steffens.

  31. Here is what I found on Lincoln Steffens from the online Encyclopedia Britannica.

    ” … Events in Mexico and Russia turned Steffens’ attention from reform to revolution. After a trip to Petrograd (now Saint Petersburg) in 1919 he wrote a friend, “I have seen the future; and it works.” His unorthodoxy lost him his American audience during the 1920s; he continued to study revolutionary politics in Europe and became something of a legendary character for the younger expatriates. After the great success of his Autobiography (1931), he supported many communist activities but refused identification with any party or doctrine.”

    This does not sound like someone I would quote so freely.

  32. Rick wrote, “Now you remember the revolution in October 1917 was Bolshevik and Lenin was involved.”

    Indeed he was and, no doubt, you will recall what Lenin said of the Ukraine: “The proletariat cannot but fight against the forcible retention of the oppressed nations within the boundaries of a given state, and this is exactly what the struggle for the right of self-determination means. The proletariat must demand the right of political secession for the colonies and for the nations that ‘its own’ nation oppresses. Unless it does this, proletarian internationalism will remain a meaningless phrase; mutual confidence and class solidarity between the workers of the oppressing and oppressed nations will be impossible.”

    Lenin remained faithful to this position to the end: immediately after the October Revolution, when Rosa Luxembourg argued that small nations should be given full sovereignty only if progressive forces would predominate in the new state, Lenin was in favour of an unconditional right to secede.

    It was Stalin who returned to pre-Revolutionary tsarist policy: Russia’s colonisation of Siberia in the 17th century and Muslim Asia in the 19th was no longer condemned as imperialist expansion, but celebrated for setting these traditional societies on the path of progressive modernisation. Putin’s foreign policy is a clear continuation of the tsarist-Stalinist line. No wonder all the European fascist parties – in Hungary, France, Italy, Serbia support his Ukrainian policy.

  33. Michael, the people of the Ukraine voted to stay with their current leader at the time and were substantially aligned with Russia by choice for two elections in a row. The second was held to satisfy cries of foul play from outside the Ukraine. In the third election outside forces were finally able to overturn the will of the good people of Ukraine and install their “man.” The outside influence included Victoria Nooland (formerly Noodleman). In this case self-determination was squashed. Consider, how is forced outside intervention to enable self-determination and democracy working in Iraq? Judge by the fruits Michael.

  34. Thanks Elzabelle. That page is horribly buggy. Poroshenko is mentioned only in passing and is never quoted in that article. What it says is that his parliamentary caucus (no others) has non specific plans to introduce some sort of legislation in response to physical attacks on Kiev homosexuals. Pretty weak tea.

    I can tolerate insults

    Quit lying and you’ll be treated more respectfully.

    Michael, the people of the Ukraine voted to stay with their current leader at the time and were substantially aligned with Russia by choice for two elections in a row.

    The Ukraine does not have a portfolio of political parties with an abiding constituency. Results vary wildly from one election to another and blocs are reconstituted every other year. The more Russophile parties have won between 10% and 43% of the ballots in parliamentary elections depending on the year. The east Ukrainian candidate for President has won between 3% of the vote and 57% of the vote depending on the year. As is, the constituency for the Russophile parties has collapsed for the time being and the Party of Regions repudiated Yanukovich in February 2014.

  35. Arlt Dleco wrote to Elzabelle:

    “I can tolerate insults.”

    You should, as you don’t mind giving them.

    “Quit lying and you’ll be treated more respectfully”

    I highly doubt it.

    Quote “You fancy Mr. Poroshenko has time to think about ‘Gay Pride’ parades?” Unquote.

    Well if Wikipedia is an acceptable source by you:
    ” a draft law that would make it illegal to talk about homosexuality in public and in the media and to import, distribution and broadcast of video, photo and audio products that “encourages homosexuality” (with penalties of up to five years in prison and fines for up to 5,000 Ukrainian hryvnia (616 United States dollar[22])) was passed in first reading in the Verkhovna Rada (Ukrainian Parliament) on 2 October 2012. This law has since then yet to pass a second parliamentary reading yet (on 4 October 2012 a second vote was tentatively scheduled for (coming) October 16[18]) and is yet to be signed by Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych in order to become a law….Early February 2013 Ukraine’s foreign minister Leonid Kozhara stated that a law prohibiting discrimination against gays will be adopted soon.[26] The Verkhovna Rada on 14 May 2013 indefinitely postponed a vote on a bill that would have barred employers from rejecting workers based on their sexual orientation.”

    And also this “non-buggy” link:

    http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/7/5/despite-a-move-towardeuropelgbtukrainiansfacenewhurdles.html

    Ukraine wants to be part of the EU. Why put anti-homosexual laws in place if a pro-Russian hand isn’t forcing it. Or better yet, why hold off on passing so-called “anti-homosexual discrimination laws” if Russia has nothing to do with it.

    Wikipedia:
    “On 12 December 1991 Ukraine became the first post-Soviet country recognized by the UN to decriminalise homosexuality.”

    Wikipedia again:
    “Today Ukraine is considered to be the most homophobic country in Europe. In a 2010 European study, 28% of Ukrainians polled believed that LGBT individuals should live freely and however they like. Russia, with 25%, had the lowest percent of support.”

  36. Well if Wikipedia is an acceptable source by you:

    It isn’t.

    All legal regimes regarding homosexuality have their drawbacks. Anti-sodomy laws have the advantage of containing homosexual practice and subcultural development and allowing some discretion to police to engage in order maintenance. The flip side of that is that it provides tools for dubious characters in law enforcement to harass people who are largely harmless to the larger world if not to themselves and their social circle. A libertarian dispensation regarding consensual sodomy can lead to the development of sex-for-rent slums absent deft law enforcement and proved in this country an unstable equilibrium (or no equilibrium at all) given the dispositions of the ‘vanguard’ homosexual population. Anti-discrimination law is bad in so far as it removes from private parties the discretion necessary for true free association, has lawyers second-guessing the decisions of everyone else, and provides succor for workplace troublemakers; the small downside to disposing of it is that such would provide a conduit for a different brand of workplace troublemaker to harass contextually unproblematic employees.

  37. “Well if Wikipedia is an acceptable source by you:….well it isn’t”.

    Yes it is acceptable by you.

    Art Deco wrote :

    “In this case self-determination was squashed.

    I have had this discussion I do not know how many times with Putin press agents. The default to bald mendacity is stupefying.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_parliamentary_election,_2014

    You quoted Wikipedia!

    Nevertheless, I agree with you that anti-homosexual discrimination laws take away a persons free determination to discern right from wrong and act on it. I am totally against any government taking away an individuals right to oppose immorality.

    But, what I was trying to express to you, is that although it may seem that the Ukraine don’t have time to address the protests of minorities- such as homosexuals- the reality is that non-action in the case of homosexuality laws in the Ukraine as been a product of Russian coercion. Homosexuality is illegal in Russia. And Putin will make sure it is illegal in the Ukraine.

    With impending war in the Ukraine, and like so many other countries in the world which live with political and social instability, the hot issues do not just go away. Life goes on. Society goes on living. Issues still rear their heads.

  38. You quoted Wikipedia!

    Because they’re the conduit for the International Foundation for Electoral Systems, who used to run their own site.

    Rick is in the business of spinning political fictions and for the pointless harassment of an injured foreign country because he fancies some of the social policies current in Russia. Whether ‘life goes on’ or not, the President of the Ukraine is facing existential threats from a hostile neighboring state. He has other things to do than cogitate on questions properly the province of municipal government (e.g. parade permits).

  39. “Whether ‘life goes on’ or not, the President of the Ukraine is facing existential threats from a hostile neighboring state. He has other things to do than cogitate on questions properly the province of municipal government (e.g. parade permits).”

    Well der! Nobody is talking about permits for parades, or permits for busking, or permits for community markets or permits for lah-Di-dah festivals. You took that one right off course by trivialising the point.

    Russia is telling the Ukraine exactly how the cookie is crumbling – from the top to the bottom – who will be the Ukrainian President, which pipes Ukraine’s natural gas and oil will run through, and what Ukraine’s social policies will be.
    Can homosexuality exist in “Putins Ukraine”. If Putin has his way it will be a big fat no.

    Ironically, in light of his own personal life, the idea of Putin legalising any sort of morality, in Russia or wherever, is one big joke.

  40. Art Deco wrote, “Anti-sodomy laws have the advantage of containing homosexual practice and subcultural development and allowing some discretion to police to engage in order maintenance.”
    They are really only appropriate in a confessional state. It is no accident that the new Penal Code, proposed by Louis Michel le Peletier, Marquis de Saint-Fargeau (promulgated September 26 – October 6, 1791) abolished, without a debate, the crimes of blasphemy, sodomy and witchcraft [le blasphème, la sodomie et la sorcellerie]
    They really have no place in a republic that neither recognises, salaries or subsidises any cult.

  41. Nobody is talking about permits for parades,

    Yes, Rick was talking about that. See above.

    They are really only appropriate in a confessional state.

    You need to contain your impulse to utter non sequiturs. Consensual sodomy was unlawful in New York State until 1980, when the state Court of Appeals ruled (arbitrarily) that such could not be enforced. (The plaintiff-appellant was a man who had been arrested going at in a parked car). It was not so because New York was a confessional state. New York has had no religious establishment since the last quarter of the 18th century and no uncontested establishment since the time of Charles II. It was so because it was the common opinion that no decent person engaged in consensual sodomy. Or adultery (also unlawful, and with the same prescribed penalties). Or incest. Or deflowered a 15 year old girl. Prostitution was (and remains) unlawful with the very same penalties which once attached to consensual sodomy. Laws on prostitution are aids to public order maintenance, just as are the laws on consensual sodomy.

  42. the new Penal Code, proposed by Louis Michel le Peletier, Marquis de Saint-Fargeau (promulgated September 26 – October 6, 1791) abolished, without a debate

    And next we hear your argument on behalf of French practices on the periodicity of bathing, what counts as good manners among service personnel in Paris, and what counts as upstanding behavior among French presidents.

  43. “abolished, without a debate, the crimes of blasphemy, sodomy and witchcraft [le blasphème, la sodomie et la sorcellerie]”

    The French went on punishing sodomy under other penal provisions. As for Louis Michel le Peletier, Marquis de Saint-Fargeau, he was a typical French revolutionary loon who wished to establish schools where boys and girls would be taught revolutionary principles rather than academic subjects. An assassin’s blade cut short his career shortly after he cast the deciding vote for the judicial murder of King Louis XVI.

  44. Yes, Rick, I’m sure at the final judgment we’ll hear something like this: “I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you took me in, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you comforted me, I was in prison and you visited me, BUT, you did not express sufficient approval in a blog comments section for a Russian dictator who used me as a crutch to draw support for his imperial ambitions, so depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.”

  45. Art Deco
    The laws of New York you describe are all of them part of the New England Puritan legacy.
    In England, from which most of New York’s law was derived, adultery was never a crime (except during the Commonwealth); incest was not a crime until 1906. Prostitution was not (and is not) a crime, although there are a number of offences associated with it (soliciting in a public place, loitering and importuning, brothel-keeping and living off immoral earnings are examples)
    In short, both in New York, in Scotland and in England under the Commonwealth, matters formerly of ecclesiastical cognizance were criminalised under Calvinist influence. Such legislation can long survive the motives that occasioned its introduction; in Scotland, the Incest Act 1567 survived until 1986 and, as late as 2008, the courts were still wrestling with the proper construction of Lev XVIII (HMA v BL)

  46. “The laws of New York you describe are all of them part of the New England Puritan legacy.”

    Ludicrous MPS. New England puritanism had zero influence in New York at any time. Even in New England puritanism was a spent force by the time of the American Revolution.

  47. The laws of New York you describe are all of them part of the New England Puritan legacy.

    New York had formal but not uncontested religious establishments, which is to say rival Dutch Reformed and Anglican congregations. New Jersey also had contention between sects, whereas Pennsylvania (foundationally Quaker) and Delaware had no religious establishment at all (something which applied as well in Rhode Island). The middle colonies were not New England and in the South, there was an intense contrast between Maryland (which had a Calvinist establishment abusing a Catholic minority) and the lax Anglican establishments of the remainder. On the other end of the business, Nova Scotia and Newfoundland had purely nominal establishments (and Newfoundland hardly any clergy). Every place in British North America differed from every other place.

  48. Donald R McClarey wrote: “Even in New England puritanism was a spent force by the time of the American Revolution.”
    No doubt. But note that temporal laws against sodomy, incest, fornication and adultery were unknown to the English Common Law and that their introduction everywhere in Europe can be traced to Calvinist influence (not all Puritans were Calvinists, of course, but they all called on the civil power to repress vice and depreciated the rôle of the ecclesiastical courts). Such laws were favoured by the Low Church or Evangelical party in Anglicanism and Lutheran states adopted them, but always on the model of Geneva.
    Civil laws against adultery were, it is true, influenced, particularly in German, by the Reception of the Civil Law. Here the story is rather complicated. But, of course, the Civil Law was never received in NY.

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