Bishop Thomas John Paprocki of the Springfield, Illinois diocese minces no words as to what is at stake in this election:
My dear brothers and sisters in Christ:
Much attention was given at the Democratic National Convention held recently in Charlotte, N.C., to the fact that all references to God had been purged from the draft version of the party platform. After outcries of protest from outside as well as within the Democratic Party, the sentence with the same reference to God used in 2008 was restored to read, “We need a government that stands up for the hopes, values and interests of working people, and gives everyone willing to work hard the chance to make the most of their God-given potential.”
Before anyone relaxes and concludes that all is well now that the Democratic Party Platform contains a single passing reference to God, the way that this was done should give us pause. Convention chairman Antonio Villaraigosa had to call for the voice vote three times because each time the sound level for the “ayes” and the “nays” sounded about even, far short of the two-thirds necessary according to convention rules to amend the platform. That did not stop the convention chairman from declaring, “The ayes have it!”
What is troubling about that is the blatant disregard for the rules and for the apparent wishes of about half the delegates. The reference to God is back in the platform apparently because President Obama wanted it back in. That may be fine for now, but if a future president wants references to God taken out, apparently that can be done regardless of the wishes of the delegates if that is what The Leader wants. That does not bode well for democracy in the Democratic Party.
Even more troubling is that this whole discussion about God in the platform is a distraction from more disturbing matters that have been included in the platform. In 1992 Presidential candidate Bill Clinton famously said that abortion should be “safe, legal and rare.” That was the party’s official position until 2008. Apparently “rare” is so last century that it had to be dropped, because now the Democratic Party Platform says that abortion should be “safe and legal.” Moreover the Democratic Party Platform supports the right to abortion “regardless of the ability to pay.” Well, there are only three ways for that to happen: either taxpayers will be required to fund abortion, or insurance companies will be required to pay for them (as they are now required to pay for contraception), or hospitals will be forced to perform them for free.
Moreover, the Democratic Party Platform also supports same-sex marriage, recognizes that “gay rights are human rights,” and calls for the repeal of the Defense of Marriage Act, the federal law signed by President Clinton in 1996 that defined marriage as the legal union of one man and one woman.
Now, why am I mentioning these matters in the Democratic Party Platform? There are many positive and beneficial planks in the Democratic Party Platform, but I am pointing out those that explicitly endorse intrinsic evils. My job is not to tell you for whom you should vote. But I do have a duty to speak out on moral issues. I would be abdicating this duty if I remained silent out of fear of sounding “political” and didn’t say anything about the morality of these issues. People of faith object to these platform positions that promote serious sins. I know that the Democratic Party’s official “unequivocal” support for abortion is deeply troubling to pro-life Democrats.
So what about the Republicans? I have read the Republican Party Platform and there is nothing in it that supports or promotes an intrinsic evil or a serious sin. The Republican Party Platform does say that courts “should have the option of imposing the death penalty in capital murder cases.” But the Catechism of the Catholic Church says (in paragraph 2267), “Assuming that the guilty party’s identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor. If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people’s safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and more in conformity to the dignity of the human person. Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm — without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself — the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity are very rare, if not practically nonexistent.”
One might argue for different methods in the platform to address the needs of the poor, to feed the hungry and to solve the challenges of immigration, but these are prudential judgments about the most effective means of achieving morally desirable ends, not intrinsic evils.
Certainly there are “pro-choice” Republicans who support abortion rights and “Log Cabin Republicans” who promote same-sex marriage, and they are equally as wrong as their Democratic counterparts. But these positions do not have the official support of their party.
Again, I am not telling you which party or which candidates to vote for or against, but I am saying that you need to think and pray very carefully about your vote, because a vote for a candidate who promotes actions or behaviors that are intrinsically evil and gravely sinful makes you morally complicit and places the eternal salvation of your own soul in serious jeopardy.
I pray that God will give you the wisdom and guidance to make the morally right choices.
May God give us this grace. Amen.
Do you hear that sound? It is the sound of the Church Militant waking again! Bravo Bishop Paprocki!
Thank you, Donald.
Listening to Bp. Paprocki say the bishops “lack the humility to speak on matters outside [their] competence” made me cheer and brought a tear of joy to my eye at the same time. He is defintely a minority amongst his brethren in the USCCB.
I forgot to add that he said that at the USCCB general meeting a few months ago.
May he be the first of many – not the last of the few.
It is SO refreshing to hear the truth! God bless you Bishop Paprocki! I would only ask you to continue to use your First Amendment Rights of freedom of speech and announce as a private citizen who you are voting for at the federal and state levels that will have a voice on the issues you mentioned.
I would also ask you to send a copy of your statement to all of your brother bishops and ask them to join you.
Yet, I know Catholics who will still vote for Obama. They’re liberals who in their arrogance really believe they are smarter and morally superior to us “conservatives.” They tell me they see the “big picture” and “what’s best for the common good.” How they’re able to look pass child murder and sodomy always amazes me. I’m praying that the Holy Spirit will open their eyes and turn their hearts – for their sake and for the sake of our country.
Yes sir, that’s my bishop. My favorite lines: “In 1992 Presidential candidate Bill Clinton famously said that abortion should be ‘safe, legal, and rare.’ That was the party’s official position until 2008. Apparently, ‘rare’ is so last century that it had to be dropped”.
“I would only ask you to continue to use your First Amendment Rights of freedom of speech and announce as a private citizen who you are voting for at the federal and state levels”
Not sure I agree with that. Balloting is secret for a reason and I don’t think we should set a precedent of expecting or demanding that ANY citizen, including bishops, state whom they are going to vote for. Besides, I think the answer to the question of whom the Bishop is NOT going to vote for is pretty obvious. Beyond that, several morally acceptable alternatives are available (vote GOP, vote third party/write in, or don’t vote at all).
Well, actually Don the Kiwi, he seems more like the last of the few. Many prominent individual bishops like Cdl Dolan and Abp Chaput as well as USCCB as a whole, spend way too much time using their good offices carrying on about matters outside their competence. They spend way too much time making statements opposing capital punishment and defending illegal immigrstion. These statements are not only ill informed, but I believe they go to the lengths of being dishonest. Cdl. Dolan equated the state of AZ’s legitimate effort to deal with its illegal imigrtion problem (SB 1070) with the Klu Klux Klan. I do not see how that is not an act of libel. For a Catholic bishop, especially one of Dolan’s prominence to engage in such in act is a scandal. But yu can judge for yourself:
http://www.catholic.org/politics/story.php?id=36322
So, hearing Bp Paprocki tell his brother bishops at a USCCB to basically shut up on matters outside their competence was an understatement, but a breath of fresh air nonetheless.
With few exceptions, the Church Militant in the U.S. is sorely lacking in adequate generals to lead in the war we are up against. Anyone who thinks otherwise is delusional in mmy opinion.
@Elaine Krewer
“Not sure I agree with that. Balloting is secret for a reason and I don’t think we should set a precedent of expecting or demanding that ANY citizen, including bishops, state whom they are going to vote for. Besides, I think the answer to the question of whom the Bishop is NOT going to vote for is pretty obvious. Beyond that, several morally acceptable alternatives are available (vote GOP, vote third party/write in, or don’t vote at all).”
Yes, “balloting” is secret if one wants it to be. But many prominent people publically tell people who they are supporting. This election is unlike any we have ever had. The Church, itself, has a stake in it that they can’t just rely on the Supreme Court to protect them; they have to protect themselves. “A bird in the hand is better than two in the bush,” and they have a bird in hand with this election. There is no way this man should be reelected president BUT he has lots of money behind him (I wonder why) and a lying news media and a fawning entertainment industry who will do all they can to protect and boost him up while trying to destroy his opponent. The Church has an army of people, but over half of them remain in and vote for the Decadent Party. Why? Because the bishops have failed in helping them to learn how to develop a properly formed conscience with their confusing booklet, “Faithful Citizenship.” This “instruction” booklet, created to supposedly enable a Catholic to discern how to develop a properly form conscience was intentionally written, I suspect, to enable a Catholic to “feel” correct in voting for who ever they want to. That is why after so many years of babies being murdered, and so many years of “Faithful Citizenship,” so many Catholics still give their name identification and votes to the pro-abortion, Decadent Party, and that includes a majority of the registered-to-vote clergy, and bishops, too.
So, here we are, at a cross road. Catholics are the largest, single voting block for the Decadent Party. The bishops realize it; they enabled that to continue with “Faithful Citizenship” and have never really done anything to change it after seeing how Catholics continued voting. Do the bishops want to see the Supreme Court stacked with more pro-abortion justices? Do the bishops want to see more abortions paid for with taxpayer dollars? Do the bishops want to see theirs and their flocks’ freedom of religion continued to be destroyed? Do the bishops want to close down Catholic schools and hospitals? Do the bishops want to see marriage destroyed? Which party do the bishops what to see in power when Archbishop Weakland’s autobiography comes out in a month or two telling about his homosexual lifestyle as priest and bishop? Which party do they trust to treat the Church right, the Decadent Party or the Decent Party? Do they really want Catholics to vote for a third party or do a write in? No, it is time the bishops step up and lead by example. This is a spiritual war, not just an election. And God placed them in a leadership position to lead the troops into battle. It’s time to lead by example and tell us who THEY are voting for. That way Catholics will KNOW what the end result is of having a properly formed conscience.
Romans 1:28-30
“They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed, and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant, and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil.”
in 2012, “they” are concentrated among democrats.
If churches want to get political, they must be taxed like any other business.
First rate idea John. Right after the Federal and State governments begin paying Churches for the charitable work they do, the hospitals they provide and the schools they run. Every government budget in this country would collapse if governments had to pick up the slack caused by Churches ceasing to engage in charity.
The Church is made of people, and these people pay taxes. Even the priests and bishops surely pay income taxes the same as any other person who receives an income. So why should the Church (i.e., the people who make up the Church) have to pay taxes twice for their freedom of speech? Just because the liberal elite doesn’t like the truth in the message?
PS, there are no taxes in either Heaven or Hell, and we all end up in one of those two places, Purgatory being a pit stop on the way for those bound for Heaven.
BTW, isn’t Planned Parenthood tax exempt? What about all the Eco-wacko enviro-nazi groups? They are politically active. If the Church is to be taxed, then why not them? Liberals never can their proposals to their logical conclusions.
@John
“If churches want to get political, they must be taxed like any other business.”
What is “political” about what the churches are talking about?
@John,
Yes! We’ll start with the black racists that call themselves “the Reverend . . . ”
And, move on to ACORN, every taxpayer-funded community group, etc.
My beloved American Catholics, this is the time to Vote for your Final Eternal Destination. The Catholic Church Divine Teachings of God’sTruth has already convicted anyone who will vote for Obama and his “Merchants’ of Death” Gospel. From far off here, we hope the Novena you have commenced to-day – the 29th of September, will influence you all to make the ONLY RIGHT DECISION.
God bless Bishop Paprocki. May the remainder of the American bishops follow his lead.We pray that God will give all of us courage in these difficult days.
Mary@42 and all, there was a sermon on EWTN (repeats three times today) by the Bishop of Lincoln describing the spiritual essence of what is happening and how our prayer can help. I can’t do justice to his words about the power of the seven Archangels and the rest of them in helping us with those taken by the fallen angels; he said we pray for the souls of people controlled by the demons who tempt and destroy good.
Novena from 9/29 (Feast of the Guardian Angels) to 10/7 (Feast of Our Lady of the Rosary) is for all to do in these days of the struggle.
religiousliberties.org/novena/ has the prayer (s).
Parocki, should look a little closer at the alternative before he makes his proclamations. I know of few Catholics that can stomach the policies of selfishness, uncaring the the poor, seniors, & less educated by the alternative – they will all be voting the other way. shame shame Parocki
Too many Catholics LPM are precisely of your mindset. It apparently never enters into your, or their, calculations that the ruinous economic policies of Obama will ultimately lead to the slashing of the government handouts that seem to be the be-all and end-all for casting ballots. Beyond that, you care not a fig for abortion, gay marriage, the HHS mandate or a host of other issues where the current regime is directly opposed to the Catholic Church. You are selling out the Church for the Welfare State, and you will not even have the Welfare State much longer.
Donald, I’m afraid we are at very opposite poles on this issue.
The Pope himself said national healthcare is a right.
http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/11/19/pope-is-no-tea-partier-benedict-backs-guaranteed-health-care-fo/
Gay marriage is what my neighbor does and does not infringe upon me. The fact that my neighbor can’t be with their partner in a hospital does seem like quite the travesty though.
On HHS – why are we suddenly upset about coverage of contraceptives by Protestant employees at our facilities when they were covered before? (we know none of the Catholics are using them … right?). Perhaps we can require them to eat fish on Fridays or attend church on Holy Days of Obligation too.
Don’t make a deal with the devil on a single issue. Change the single issue. Saving a party of selfish people is a herculean task.
I could go on.
You should list all of the ruinous Obama policies and lets go through them.
@LPM –
“Parocki, should look a little closer at the alternative before he makes his proclamations. I know of few Catholics that can stomach the policies of selfishness, uncaring the the poor, seniors, & less educated by the alternative…”
You must have misunderstood him. He WAS talking about the decadent Democrat Party, the party that loves intrinsic evil and doesn’t want to hear about God or the capitol of Israel in their party platform.
LPM, you are right: “Saving a party of selfish people is a herculean task.”
The more we try, the worst the Decadent, Democrat Party gets.
Liberal progressive Democrats, placing Government as God and blasphemously making Obama their Christ, obviously do not think that conservative orthodox Christians possess any reading or critical thinking skills.
The link that LPM gave goes to the Huffington Post, indeed a part of the Magisterium of satan’s church of liberal progressivism. However, the article fortunately includes a link to the Zenit article which records the Pope’s actual speech. That speech is here:
http://www.zenit.org/article-31001?l=english
Now the Pope said, “It is necessary to work with greater commitment at all levels so that the right to health is rendered effective, favoring access to primary health care.”
Contrary to LPM’s assertion, the Pope did not say, “It is necessary to work with greater commitment at all levels so that the right to health care is rendered effective…”
Nor did the Pope say, “Government must provide cost-free health care.” BTW, in John Chapter 12, when Jesus feet were being bathes with costly oil, Judas iscariot said that the oil could have been sold and the proceeds gone to feed the poor. Scripture says he did not state this because he cared for the poor, but because he carried the money purse and used to steal therefrom. So everytime I read of advocacy of social justice with my tax dollars being made by people like LPM, I think of Judas Iscariot.
Now what LPM ignores is what the Pope did say towards the end of his speech, “Unfortunately, next to positive and encouraging results, there are opinions and lines of thought that wound it: I am referring to questions such as those connected with so-called ‘reproductive health,’ with recourse to artificial techniques of procreation entailing the destruction of embryos, or with legalized euthanasia. Love of justice, the protection of life from conception to its natural end, respect for the dignity of every human being, are to be upheld and witnessed, even against the current: the fundamental ethical values are the common patrimony of universal morality and the basis of democratic coexistence.”
Additionally, if LPM is going to insist that we comply with the Pope’s words on health care by virtue of his office as supreme Pontiff, the Episcopus Primus Iter Pares, then equally so ought we to comply with the Pope’s words on the threat to liberty that the current culture of radical secularism (which sacramentalizes the infanticide of the unborn and the filth of homosexuality) presents. That speech is here:
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/speeches/2012/january/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20120119_bishops-usa_en.html
I shall be unequivocal:
Death to Democracy – two wolves and one sheep voting on what’s for dinner!
Defeat abortion and homosexual perversion!
Long Live Liberty!
Viva Cristo Rey!
“The Pope himself said national healthcare is a right.”
You can look long and hard and you will never find any endorsement of ObamaCare by the Pope.
“Gay marriage is what my neighbor does and does not infringe upon me. The fact that my neighbor can’t be with their partner in a hospital does seem like quite the travesty though. ”
Changing the definition of marriage has no impact on you? Ridiculous. As for the hospital canard that is solved by a simple legal document called a power of attorney.
“On HHS – why are we suddenly upset about coverage of contraceptives by Protestant employees at our facilities when they were covered before?”
Because the government is mandating the coverage with no option for the employer to opt out. Does freedom of conscience mean nothing to you?
“Don’t make a deal with the devil on a single issue.”
Actually that is what you have done. “Take care of me Nanny State! Wah!” You sell out your Catholic birthright for a fool’s gold guarantee of being cared for by the State.
If you are really interested in what the Pope says, go here to read his warning as to how religious freedom is under threat in America:
https://the-american-catholic.com/2012/01/20/pope-benedict-religious-freedom-under-threat-in-america/
“Death to Democracy – two wolves and one sheep voting on what’s for dinner!”
No Paul, Democracy is a grand thing. Our problem is not Democracy but the attacks on it.
Donald,
I should make a difference between (1) Democracy being simply majority rules regardless of the right of the individual to life and liberty and (2) Democracy being a Constitutional Republic where the right of the individual to life and liberty is sacrosanct. The former resulted in the Athenian crowd voting that Socrates should die and the mob in the courtyard of Pontius Pilate crying, “Crucifige eum, crucifge eum!” The latter is what our nation once was and now is not. I am sorry that my comment does not include or address this distinction.
@donald:
“In fact Pope Benedict joined WHO’s call for universal health coverage just before its report hit the press. He called health care a moral responsibility of government and an “inalienable right,” regardless of social and economic status or ability to pay. He cautioned that the privatization of health care should “not become a threat to the accessibility, availability, and quality of health care.””
http://www.uscatholic.org/culture/social-justice/2011/01/papal-prescription
You: “Changing the definition of marriage has no impact on you? Ridiculous. ”
why? It doesn’t impact me, is there something special about you that you are impacted? It doesn’t impact a Catholic marriage, it’s a state definition.
You: “Because the government is mandating the coverage with no option for the employer to opt out. Does freedom of conscience mean nothing to you?”
Mark 12:17 “Well, then,” Jesus said, “give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar, and give to God what belongs to God.” His reply completely amazed them.
you: “Actually that is what you have done. “Take care of me Nanny State! Wah!” You sell out your Catholic birthright for a fool’s gold guarantee of being cared for by the State.”
What is the Catholic position on the death penalty? I think it’s clear
What is the Catholic position on helping the poor? I think it’s clear
What is the Catholic position on taking care of children? I think it’s clear
What is ….
I could go on
“In fact Pope Benedict joined WHO’s call for universal health coverage just before its report hit the press.”
Once again that is not an endorsement of ObamaCare as the opposition of the Bishops in this country indicate. I note that you did not address the concern of the Pope that I linked to about the assault on religious freedom by the Obama administration.
“why? It doesn’t impact me”
Don’t be deliberately obtuse. Heterosexual marriage is the foundation of our civilization. Homosexual marriage extends to a sexual perversion the same honored status of marriage to the union between man and woman blessed by Christ at Cana. That you can’t see how this impacts you is an indication of how unimportant the Faith is to you. The whole drive for homosexual marriage is directly contrary to the teaching of the Church that homosexual sex is always evil. It has nothing to do with marriage per se, but rather is another way that homosexual activists seek to compel people to act as if homosexuality is normal and good.
“give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar,”
Our consciences do not belong to Caesar and neither does our Church.
“What is the Catholic position on the death penalty?”
Actually Obama is not against the death penalty. The Catholic position on the death penalty right now, as opposed to the position of the Church for 1950 years, could charitably be called confused.
“What is the Catholic position on helping the poor?”
That we each have an individual duty to the poor. Christ did not spend time in Judaea crying out for Caesar to establish a welfare state.
“What is the Catholic position on taking care of children?”
That they are best taken care of by their parents in the bonds of Holy Matrimony. That the Church is opposed to homosexual adoption, something pushed by the Obama administration. That sex education is best left up to parents, as opposed to the State. That they are not to be slaughtered by the type of child murder called abortion.
The Catholic position on death penalty is clear: visiting the death penalty on the unborn is murder. The blood of 53 million innocents cries out to the Lord for vengeance, and Scripture says, “Vengeance is mind; I shall repay.” Payment time draweth nigh.
The Catholic position on helping the poor is clear: each member of the Body of Christ is to do corporal works of mercy and not abdicate that responsibility to Caesar. It’s called personal responsibility and accountability.
The Catholic position on taking care of children is clear: raise them in the fear and admonition of the Lord.
No people who allow the death penalty to be visited on the unborn or who accept the sanctification of the filth of homosexual sodomy deserve health care. The people of Judah and Israel found this out the hard way. It took deportation by Nebuchadnezzer and Sennacherib to bring them to that realization. The wages of sin are death!
“Seek first the Kingdom of God and His righteousness and all these things shall be added unto thee as well.” That’s the ticket to recovery.
The Gospel of conversion and repentance precedes health and prosperity. All the time. Everywhere. And in every case.
Donald
millions of Catholics and I disagree with you.
You want to avoid providing healthcare to others, you confuse you religious belief with state actions, you are willing to vote for the party of the death penalty, you keep discussing some nanny state which is some concoction of the selfish.
I must admit this quote “Heterosexual marriage is the foundation of our civilization. Homosexual marriage extends to a sexual perversion the same honored status of marriage to the union between man and woman blessed by Christ at Cana. That you can’t see how this impacts you is an indication of how unimportant the Faith is to you. The whole drive for homosexual marriage is directly contrary to the teaching of the Church that homosexual sex is always evil. It has nothing to do with marriage per se, but rather is another way that homosexual activists seek to compel people to act as if homosexuality is normal and good.” is funny. I for one find your suggestion that allowing my neighbor to be different and either an endorsement or encouraging it unsupported by mine or anyones commentary. I have no desire to live in your theocracy.
good luck
This is amusing.
Truth does not depend on what millions of Catholics think or don’t think. Truth is not subject to a Democratic vote.
Scripture says that sodomizers, adulterers, fornicators, thieves, liars, murderers and drunkards do NOT get to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. It doesn’t matter what millions of Catholics think. BTW, God destroyed Sodom and Gommorah because of their sexual filth. God does NOT change. He always does the same thing in the same way. So we should buckle up.
Jesus came to establish the Kingdom of God which is a theocracy. And Heaven most assuredly is a theocracy where Scripture says the sexual perverts are unwelcome. On the other hand, chaste and celibate people of same sex attraction are welcome.
So if someone doesn’t want to live in a theocracy, then the only other alternative is hell.
Once again you failed to address the statement of the Pope regarding the threat to religious liberty posed by the Obama administration.
“You want to avoid providing healthcare to others”
No what I want to do away with is ObamaCare. I have no problem with the State assisting the indigent who need medical treatment, but such a goal does not require turning over our healthcare system to the Federal government.
“you are willing to vote for the party of the death penalty,”
3. Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia. For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia.
http://www.priestsforlife.org/magisterium/bishops/04-07ratzingerommunion.htm
“you keep discussing some nanny state which is some concoction of the selfish.”
If twere only true.
” I have no desire to live in your theocracy.”
By your definition you have been living in a theocracy for some time if the definition of a theocracy is not having gay marriage. Since the Church is opposed to gay marriage I assume therefore that you think the Church is attempting to impose a theocracy. Here’s a hint: Catholic teaching that you don’t like does not constitute a theocracy.
“you are willing to vote for the party of the death penalty,”
That would include Obama and the regime’s piratical, untrammeled drone assassination campaigns with no trial, no jury, no habeus corpus, no countless appeals, . . .
I never imagined I would agree with Ralph Nader on anything. Obama is a war criminal.
“Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia”…..so you say
I believe nearly 50M uninsured does
Your primacy of a single issue versus a portfolio of selfishness exhibited by the party of selfish and vengeful people make no sense.
You want the state to define marriage for our church. I don’t care what the state defines for marriage. I care what my church defines for marriage. If you care so much for their definition or marriage, you should care about their definition of divorce too….do you? I could go on.
I’m still waiting for your response to your first wild assertion – please list all of the ruinous Obama policies and lets go through them.
-guy
I would note once again that you have not addressed the warning of Pope Benedict as to the threat posed to American religious freedom by the Obama administration.
“Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia”…..so you say
I agree with the words but they are Cardinal Ratzinger’s, not mine
“Your primacy of a single issue versus a portfolio of selfishness exhibited by the party of selfish and vengeful people make no sense.”
Actually I believe that Obama’s enthusiastic support for the child murder known as abortion that snuffs out almost a million innocent lives a year in this country would be sufficient for no decent human being to give him any support whatsoever. As it happens, I also oppose Obama on a whole host of issues.
“You want the state to define marriage for our church.”
No, I want the State to recognize that marriage can no more exist between two homosexuals than it can between a man and his car. The attempt to transform marriage into something it is not should offend anyone with an atom of common sense.
“I’m still waiting for your response to your first wild assertion – please list all of the ruinous Obama policies and lets go through them.”
You will find hundreds of posts by me and others on this site listing chapter and verse as to Obama’s support for abortion, his HHS mandate, his insane fiscal policies, his ruinous economic policies, his contempt for American liberties, etc. Have a ball reading them.
Obama’s enthusiastic support? you should demonstrate the enthusiasm. I’m guessing you can demonstrate as much as you can his ruinous policies.
you should be able to list them, it should be easy. Don’t expect me to do your work. Its your wild assertion.
Ratzinger can say anything he wants, you quote it since it supports your position without defense of any of your other positions. Many Bishops / Cardinals say many things – should I gather a list of a few? I’m sure you will find many US positions and policies under attack.
I would note once again that you have not addressed the warning of Pope Benedict as to the threat posed to American religious freedom by the Obama administration.
“Obama’s enthusiastic support? you should demonstrate the enthusiasm. ”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUl99id2SvM
“you should be able to list them, it should be easy. Don’t expect me to do your work. Its your wild assertion.”
The posts are there, read them. Even trolls have to work at this blog.
“Ratzinger can say anything he wants”
Yes, and since he is now Pope that gives added heft to his letter.
@LPM
“please list all of the ruinous Obama policies and lets go through them.”
Why don’t you list all of the successful Obama polices?
Obama’s enthusiastic support? Y
youshould demonstrate how he has been enthusiastic.the enthusiasm.I’m guessing you can demonstrate his enthusiasm as wellmuchas you have been able to demonstrate how his policies have been ruinouscan his ruinous policies.Y
you should be able to list them, it should be easy. Don’t expect me to do your work. It‘s your wild assertion.Pope Benedict XVI
Ratzingercan say anything he wants.,Yyou quote himitsince heitsupports your position even though other statements contradict yours.without defense of any of your other positions.ManyBishops and/Cardinals have issued different statementssay many things– should Igather alist of a few? I’m sure you will find many that are critical of American governmentUS positions andpoliciesunder attack.Editor’s note: Just thought I would help you make your comment a little clearer.
LPM “I believe nearly 50M uninsured (does (have the same moral weight)”
When you start fibbing about numbers you really lose me. You know that number includes 20 M illegal immigrants which Obamacare doesn’t cover since anyone who says it does is a liar right ? You know it includes another 15-20M who Choose not to have health insurance though they could afford it. One of my aunts fit that category. Compelling them to pay for health insurance may or may not be good policy but it is hardly providing the needy a Benefit. So we are left with 10 M with a real problem. Many of these only have short term gaps in coverage or they did until Obama took office and created the category of Out-of-the-Workforce whether-you-like-it-or-not. A 50 page bill could have taken care of this issue without the other 2650 pages tacked on. Finally like most Leftists you confuse medical insurance with medical care. Obama has explicitly stated on national TV that his (rationing) boards will deny care and tell people to take a pain pill (and die out of sight). But to you that is compassion because everyone except illegals of course has “Health Insurance”. Actually you were careful to avoid saying that everyone ( including illegals) doesn’t already have health Care in the US. What kind of health care does a bankrupt country provide? Let’s ask residents of Greece, Spain, Italy and the late great Soviet Union how that worked with their universal coverage.
Finally let’s get real. Leftists like Obama and yourself want a single payer system. Obama has said so himself on tape. So have many Democrats. OK if single payer is so great, present the reasons to the public and convince them to go to such a system. The deception and corruption evident with Obamacare have poisoned the public’s opinion of it but Progressives like yourself still want to ram it through. Thanks for your compassion.
Rozin, Donald and God’s Angels, Saints and Saints-Militant, it is no use trying to drum sense into LPM& Company. They have sold their souls to the Devil. By and by they will come face to face with their Maker…..His words????? “”””THY WILL BE DONE””””. Let us just pray for them. God will win this War, as He has always Done when Satan raises his proud and arrogant head against Him.
I love my Catholic faith but the Church leaders are corrupt. The Church wanted Obamacare and lobbied heavily for it. They asked for abortion ‘neutral’ language which they didn’t get. Instead, they got a ‘universal healthcare system’ that pays for abortion, birth control and the morning after pill and will force them to pay also. It makes me cry they would push for a universal health system with a President whose first act as President was to reverse the Mexico City policy but our bishops are blind. Our Pope in First Things wrote an article in 2006 titled,”Europe and It’s Discontents” where he writes, “In many respects, democratic socialism was and is close to Catholic social doctirne and has in any case made a remarkable contribution to the formation of a social consciousness.” So, after Obama was elected he wrote his economic encyclical to give to Obama to let him know he’s on the same page except for abortion. Their economic ideas are alike and if the church wants something they are willing to ask for ‘abortion neutral’ language or call cops on their own parishoners who maybe trying to educate on candidates prolife record but it might threaten their tax exempt status. Ultimately, the Pope has showed his true stripes when he set policy regarding the sexual abuse in the Church and ignored all the abused children for the betterment of the Church. The Church leaders are all about themselves and their kingdom of brick and mortar, the laity and unborn are runover ultimately. We need religious freedom and conscience rights but mine have been run over to promote abortion around the world. I think the bishops are a little too late.
Mary@42
Thank you but I’m not trying to convince LPM, I’m trying to drive him off. Progressives hate facts and thus history (and you know what Burke etc said about that). However they have an endless supply of agitprop techniques to dance around using words.
“Once again that is not an endorsement of ObamaCare as the opposition of the Bishops in this country indicate. I note that you did not address the concern of the Pope that I linked to about the assault on religious freedom by the Obama administration.”
Now, Donald there were individual bishops who raised concerns about how a governement takeover of health care can be squared with the principle of subsidiarity. But the U.S. Bishops, by and large, seemed to have no problem with government run healthcare. The only reason the USCCB finally oppsed Obamacare was its funding of abortion.
The U.S. Bishops are far more enthusiastic about opposing the death penalty and supporting illegal immigration (issues where a Catholic can faithfully take either side) than they are about opposing Obamacare, even post-HHS mandate.
With illegal immigration the USCCB filed a friend of the court brief opposing AZ’s SB 1070. You even had Cdl. Mahony and now Cdl Dolan engaging in despicable, and I think libelous, attacks against SB 1070 (I link to Cdl Dolan’s attack in an earlier post on this thread). Did they do any such thing with Obamacare, even with its coverage of abortion? NOOOO!!!!
I don’t think I need to go into how badly the bishops have allowed themselves to be expploited by anti-death penalty activists. Heck, even Bp. Paprocki’s presentation was fuzzy on that issue. He cites the 2nd Edition of CCC, which any theologically literate person knows is problematically worded with its lumping prudential judgments in with the doctrinal aspects.
Like I have said before, until the bishops own up to how they have contributed to this mess, it will continue. Mark my word!!
Furthermore, I find it odd that Bp Paprocki didn’t just cite the then-Cdl Ratzinger 2004 Letter to Cdl McCarrick,which by the way was issued in Ratzinger’s offical capacity as prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, which gives it magisterial heft independent of the fact that he is now Pontiff.
It seems that our bishops are allergic to that letter because they never mention it when it comes to the death penalty.
“I have read the Republican Party Platform and there is nothing in it that supports or promotes an intrinsic evil or a serious sin. ”
Read that again, you in the Decadent, Democrat Party. The Decent Party has nothing in THEIR party platform that is a “serious sin,” let alone an intrinsic evil. What more is needed to know to have a “properly formed conscience” in who to vote for?
Rozin, hear you, loud and clear. However, my experience (and I am a 74 year-old Cradle Catholic to-day) is that those who hate God and His One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church can never be outshouted. So, you can go on hammering them but they will never bend.
@Greg….please remember Peter, the First Pope, denied His Master Three times and when Jesus was being crucified the whole lot of the Eleven, except young John, were nowhere to be found.
And when Jesus appeared to them in the Upper Room where they had locked themselves out of fear, they were so ashamed. YET He did not disinherit them of the Apostolate He had bestowed upon them….and we are here, 2,000 year plus, hail and strong and have weathered more horrifying persecution and torture that this one on our hands.
True, your Bishops were, no doubt, asleep when the Evil One was planning how to hit Christ’s Bride. But, believe me, He will defend her and all His faithful Flock . And we remain steadfast and strong and SHALL NEVER BOW OR KNLEEL before the Beast
Paul Ryan has said he is comfortable with Romney’s postion on abortion for the exceptions of rape, incest, and life of the mother. Such is an intrinsic evil and a moral absolute. Please Google: “Paul Ryan on airplane comments on abortion” to confirm this. Tom Hoefling of the American Independent Party appears to be 100% in sync with Catholic Teaching.