Comments on: Is There a Liturgical Counterrevolution Underway? I Hope So.

By: Hildebrand on Schism, Heresy, Truth and Unity « Non Nobis

Hildebrand on Schism, Heresy, Truth and Unity « Non Nobis — Wed, 13 Jan 2010 12:00:50 +0000

[...] opinion, but to call attention to a simple fact; that a surprisingly controversial perspective I put forward back in September of 2009 is shared by a man whom Pope Pius XII called a “Doctor of the Church for the 20th [...]

By: Adios Heretics, Hello Orthodoxy! « The American Catholic

Adios Heretics, Hello Orthodoxy! « The American Catholic — Wed, 02 Dec 2009 19:27:27 +0000

[...] Marxist elements of Liberation Theology[2]. This continued with Pope Benedict XVI’s Reform of the Reform by liberalizing access to the Latin Mass and his ecumenical efforts of reuniting [...]

By: Joe Hargrave

Joe Hargrave — Wed, 16 Sep 2009 21:11:23 +0000

“you are telling people who are not “satisfied” (thus, not getting their desire) to leave and excommunicate themselves.”

I am telling people who are dissatisfied TO THE POINT OF REBELLION to leave because they will do far more damage if they stay.

“The proper response is to encourage them to be faithful to the Church despite whatever desires they have…”

And what I have said clearly only applies to people upon whom that encouragement HAS FAILED. I’m sorry to burst this utopian, “man is inherently good” bubble you seem to inhabit, but some people cannot and and will not be moved by such an appeal. When that becomes manifest, then I say it is better for them to leave than to destroy the Church. I will not apologize for that.

“Tradition is living, and the Church, not the individual, is the authentic interpreter.”

Again, you seem to miss the whole damned point here; the Church is preparing to move in a more traditional direction precisely because of the damage that notions such as yours have done.

What you are arguing is that it is impossible to arrive at truth, that we cannot know what tradition actually is. Why not extend this, Henry, to all matters? Why not morality as well?

I have closed comments because this exchange has become ridiculous. I have no desire to repeat for the 10th time that I did not say something that Henry says I did.

By: jonathanjones02

jonathanjones02 — Wed, 16 Sep 2009 21:05:33 +0000

you have been criticizing me for a position I do not hold

In one sentence, this gets to the heart of it: here in this thread, as so often on others.

By: Henry Karlson

Henry Karlson — Wed, 16 Sep 2009 21:03:57 +0000

Darwin

I am not the one who is telling people “excommunicate yourself.”

By: Henry Karlson

Henry Karlson — Wed, 16 Sep 2009 21:02:55 +0000

For the record, no. People can “explain what they desire”. But in the end, what people desire is totally irrelevant; the Church never has and never ought to reflect our “desires”. It is about aligning our will to God’s.

That is the point. You are telling people who are not “satisfied” (thus, not getting their desire) to leave and excommunicate themselves. I am saying that is not the proper response! The proper response is to encourage them to be faithful to the Church despite whatever desires they have, and whether or not they are satisfied, while feeling free to put to question, in the proper way, what is happening and explain what they feel is being neglected. That is the whole point.

As for them being yours, actually, they are – you are doing with tradition what Protestants do with the Bible. “That’s not me, that’s the Bible speaking.” “That’s not me, that’s tradition speaking.” But it is you who is reading the tradition and interpreting it; of course you are free to do so and raise your voice as you explain what you interpret that tradition to be; it is another thing assuming your reading is one and the same as the tradition. Tradition is living, and the Church, not the individual, is the authentic interpreter.