Comments on: Nat Hentoff on the Death Panels http://the-american-catholic.com/2009/08/19/nat-hentoff-on-the-death-panels/ Politics and Culture from a Catholic perspective. Thu, 09 Feb 2012 12:06:27 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: S.B. http://the-american-catholic.com/2009/08/19/nat-hentoff-on-the-death-panels/#comment-3861 S.B. Fri, 21 Aug 2009 03:04:31 +0000 http://the-american-catholic.com/?p=11670#comment-3861 Elaine -- that's an interesting idea. For example, there is a very good case for having the government implement a Pigouvian tax or a fine on the use of antibiotics. The overuse of antibiotics has led to resistant superbugs, such as MRSA, which then kill or maim people. It's a public health hazard. It's surreal that we're talking about making the health hazard worse (i.e., helping people pay for antibiotics). Elaine — that’s an interesting idea. For example, there is a very good case for having the government implement a Pigouvian tax or a fine on the use of antibiotics. The overuse of antibiotics has led to resistant superbugs, such as MRSA, which then kill or maim people. It’s a public health hazard. It’s surreal that we’re talking about making the health hazard worse (i.e., helping people pay for antibiotics).

]]> By: DarwinCatholic http://the-american-catholic.com/2009/08/19/nat-hentoff-on-the-death-panels/#comment-3860 DarwinCatholic Thu, 20 Aug 2009 15:25:58 +0000 http://the-american-catholic.com/?p=11670#comment-3860 MM, Did you see fit to inform your European interlocutors that Americans are (when they bother to think of the continent) totally disgusted with the collapse of religion and the family in Europe, with the overall low wages and economic opportunity, and with the social acceptability of sport event violence and public drunkeness? Or do you only convey disapproval one way -- from former colonial masters to their ex-subjects who better stop dragging their knuckles and bloody-well get with the program? Overall, the fact that more Europeans relocate to the US than Americans relocate to Europe probably tells us more about how people really feel than your discussions with like-minded friends across the pond. SB, In a sense, the comparison is a bit simplistic. I think a better analysis might be the percentage of people admitted to hospital who die from (or are seriously injured by) hospital contracted diseases and malpractice versus the percentage of the uninsured who die from lacking essential mediate care. Still, the overall point is very important: Health care and health are not synonymous. For example, if you eliminate accidents, suicides and homicides, the US actually has a higher life expectancy than any of the countries our health care system is usually compared to. And although everyone (except apparently MM) recognizes the UK's NHS is a total cluster, and death rates from nearly all specific ailement (especially preventable hospital-contracted diseases resulting from lack of sanitary conditions) are much higher in the UK than elsewhere in Europe, their life expectancy is actually pretty much the same as in countries with much more functional health care systems. Medical care can help individual people life longer, but the effect of health care provision on overall population life expectancy is much more remote. (I suppose because how long you live _after_ beign diagnosed with cancer doesn't have all that much effect on the overall population life expectancy -- as compared to factors like how common cancer and heart disease are overall.) MM,

Did you see fit to inform your European interlocutors that Americans are (when they bother to think of the continent) totally disgusted with the collapse of religion and the family in Europe, with the overall low wages and economic opportunity, and with the social acceptability of sport event violence and public drunkeness? Or do you only convey disapproval one way — from former colonial masters to their ex-subjects who better stop dragging their knuckles and bloody-well get with the program? Overall, the fact that more Europeans relocate to the US than Americans relocate to Europe probably tells us more about how people really feel than your discussions with like-minded friends across the pond.

SB,

In a sense, the comparison is a bit simplistic. I think a better analysis might be the percentage of people admitted to hospital who die from (or are seriously injured by) hospital contracted diseases and malpractice versus the percentage of the uninsured who die from lacking essential mediate care.

Still, the overall point is very important: Health care and health are not synonymous. For example, if you eliminate accidents, suicides and homicides, the US actually has a higher life expectancy than any of the countries our health care system is usually compared to. And although everyone (except apparently MM) recognizes the UK’s NHS is a total cluster, and death rates from nearly all specific ailement (especially preventable hospital-contracted diseases resulting from lack of sanitary conditions) are much higher in the UK than elsewhere in Europe, their life expectancy is actually pretty much the same as in countries with much more functional health care systems.

Medical care can help individual people life longer, but the effect of health care provision on overall population life expectancy is much more remote. (I suppose because how long you live _after_ beign diagnosed with cancer doesn’t have all that much effect on the overall population life expectancy — as compared to factors like how common cancer and heart disease are overall.)

]]> By: Art Deco http://the-american-catholic.com/2009/08/19/nat-hentoff-on-the-death-panels/#comment-3859 Art Deco Thu, 20 Aug 2009 11:01:15 +0000 http://the-american-catholic.com/?p=11670#comment-3859 Ivan Illich was something of a crank, but he did have a point to make about the degree to which life expectancy is fairly insensitive to the sophistication of medical practice and the degree to which illness can be iatrogenic. I have a wretched example in my immediate family. Ivan Illich was something of a crank, but he did have a point to make about the degree to which life expectancy is fairly insensitive to the sophistication of medical practice and the degree to which illness can be iatrogenic. I have a wretched example in my immediate family.

]]> By: Elaine Krewer http://the-american-catholic.com/2009/08/19/nat-hentoff-on-the-death-panels/#comment-3858 Elaine Krewer Thu, 20 Aug 2009 07:51:40 +0000 http://the-american-catholic.com/?p=11670#comment-3858 S.B.'s argument that from 12 to 43 times as many people die FROM healthcare as from a lack of health insurance would seem to indicate that we should be arguing for LIMITING health insurance coverage instead of expanding it. Or, rather, it would if you followed the same logic as those who insist that the allegedly vast numbers of people dying from lack of health insurance proves we need a national or universal health care system. S.B.’s argument that from 12 to 43 times as many people die FROM healthcare as from a lack of health insurance would seem to indicate that we should be arguing for LIMITING health insurance coverage instead of expanding it.

Or, rather, it would if you followed the same logic as those who insist that the allegedly vast numbers of people dying from lack of health insurance proves we need a national or universal health care system.

]]> By: S.B. http://the-american-catholic.com/2009/08/19/nat-hentoff-on-the-death-panels/#comment-3857 S.B. Thu, 20 Aug 2009 03:23:07 +0000 http://the-american-catholic.com/?p=11670#comment-3857 Anyone who thinks that citing European snobs is helpful when arguing with Americans is letting his passion get the better of his ability to make an argument. Anyway, I don't get the passion here. I care about whether people are healthy. But, as any literate person knows, insured-status is a very poor proxy for whether someone gets healthcare, and then getting healthcare is a very poor proxy for whether someone is actually made healthy. For the information of people not blinded by ideology and rage, listen to this amazing fact: The number of people killed by getting healthcare (hospital infections, doctor error, etc) is 43 TIMES the number of people who die for lack of health insurance. (Compare http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2004/mar2004_awsi_death_02.htm and http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/healthcare/2002-05-22-insurance-deaths.htm). 43 times the number of dead people. Killed by healthcare. Too startling a figure, you say? A more conservative estimate comes from Barbara Starfield's JAMA article in 2000, which estimated that 225,000 people die every year from getting too much healthcare. That's 12 times the number allegedly killed for a lack of health insurance. But people who wouldn't know a JAMA article from a NEJM article are all whining about how to give more healthcare to more people. Anyone who thinks that citing European snobs is helpful when arguing with Americans is letting his passion get the better of his ability to make an argument.

Anyway, I don’t get the passion here. I care about whether people are healthy. But, as any literate person knows, insured-status is a very poor proxy for whether someone gets healthcare, and then getting healthcare is a very poor proxy for whether someone is actually made healthy.

For the information of people not blinded by ideology and rage, listen to this amazing fact: The number of people killed by getting healthcare (hospital infections, doctor error, etc) is 43 TIMES the number of people who die for lack of health insurance. (Compare http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2004/mar2004_awsi_death_02.htm and http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/healthcare/2002-05-22-insurance-deaths.htm).

43 times the number of dead people. Killed by healthcare.

Too startling a figure, you say? A more conservative estimate comes from Barbara Starfield’s JAMA article in 2000, which estimated that 225,000 people die every year from getting too much healthcare. That’s 12 times the number allegedly killed for a lack of health insurance.

But people who wouldn’t know a JAMA article from a NEJM article are all whining about how to give more healthcare to more people.

]]> By: Donna V. http://the-american-catholic.com/2009/08/19/nat-hentoff-on-the-death-panels/#comment-3856 Donna V. Thu, 20 Aug 2009 03:22:37 +0000 http://the-american-catholic.com/?p=11670#comment-3856 I have been following the uproar in the British press regarding MEP Daniel Hannan's comments. The thing that struck me was that both his critics and supporters seem to agree that mixed sex wards are a bit much. I think most Americans would balk at the very idea of <i>wards</i>, nevermind mixed sex ones! I have had more experience of being a patient than I would have liked over the past few years. Being an inpatient is not fun, even if you have a private room. Being in a ward with 29 strangers of both sexes - oh, yes, that's quite "progressive" - by the standards of 1870. I have been following the uproar in the British press regarding MEP Daniel Hannan’s comments. The thing that struck me was that both his critics and supporters seem to agree that mixed sex wards are a bit much.

I think most Americans would balk at the very idea of wards, nevermind mixed sex ones! I have had more experience of being a patient than I would have liked over the past few years. Being an inpatient is not fun, even if you have a private room. Being in a ward with 29 strangers of both sexes – oh, yes, that’s quite “progressive” – by the standards of 1870.

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