Comments on: A Just War http://the-american-catholic.com/2009/07/06/a-just-war/ Politics and Culture from a Catholic perspective. Thu, 24 May 2012 01:13:39 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: awakaman http://the-american-catholic.com/2009/07/06/a-just-war/#comment-3244 awakaman Wed, 08 Jul 2009 11:11:39 +0000 http://the-american-catholic.com/?p=10371#comment-3244 Hand hit the submit button prior to finishing: Finallhy what do you mean by "the US prevailed and were able to stand as a successful contrasting example." How so? By showing that we were willing to kill alot of our own troops, others troops and a lot of innocent civilians in the name of "liberty and freedom/" By showing that we were willing to enter into an alliance with one evil in order to defeat another? Sure the Axis were defeated but excuse me if I view the post WWII world as much worse than the ante bellum world - and that applies to the effect the prolonged and expanded war had on areas of the world which were not ceaded to Stalin and Mao after the war. Hand hit the submit button prior to finishing:

Finallhy what do you mean by “the US prevailed and were able to stand as a successful contrasting example.” How so? By showing that we were willing to kill alot of our own troops, others troops and a lot of innocent civilians in the name of “liberty and freedom/” By showing that we were willing to enter into an alliance with one evil in order to defeat another? Sure the Axis were defeated but excuse me if I view the post WWII world as much worse than the ante bellum world – and that applies to the effect the prolonged and expanded war had on areas of the world which were not ceaded to Stalin and Mao after the war.

]]> By: Donald R. McClarey http://the-american-catholic.com/2009/07/06/a-just-war/#comment-3243 Donald R. McClarey Wed, 08 Jul 2009 11:07:25 +0000 http://the-american-catholic.com/?p=10371#comment-3243 No, awakaman, without a doubt one of them would have prevailed, probably the Nazis without lendlease to the USSR and the western bombing campaign that tied down so much of the Luftwaffe in the West, not to mention a third of the Wehrmacht that, without western opposition, could have been deployed against the USSR. Then the West would probably have faced a Nazi regime armed with nuclear ICBMs circa 1952. No, awakaman, without a doubt one of them would have prevailed, probably the Nazis without lendlease to the USSR and the western bombing campaign that tied down so much of the Luftwaffe in the West, not to mention a third of the Wehrmacht that, without western opposition, could have been deployed against the USSR. Then the West would probably have faced a Nazi regime armed with nuclear ICBMs circa 1952.

]]> By: awakaman http://the-american-catholic.com/2009/07/06/a-just-war/#comment-3242 awakaman Wed, 08 Jul 2009 10:58:50 +0000 http://the-american-catholic.com/?p=10371#comment-3242 Rick: You state that the "fate of these people would have been no better had the Axis Powers not been defeated" but the point of my previous post was maybe they would not have been in a better position under the Axis then the Communists but a lot fewer of them would have been dead as a result of a four year war of attrition. "[T]hose 60 years may have been a drop in the bucket compared to what might have been?" I think the most probable result of non-British/French/US intervention would have been a prolonged war of attrition between Germany and the USSR which woud have resulted in the collapse of both regiemes. Finally, what do you mean by the US prevailed Rick:

You state that the “fate of these people would have been no better had the Axis Powers not been defeated” but the point of my previous post was maybe they would not have been in a better position under the Axis then the Communists but a lot fewer of them would have been dead as a result of a four year war of attrition.

“[T]hose 60 years may have been a drop in the bucket compared to what might have been?” I think the most probable result of non-British/French/US intervention would have been a prolonged war of attrition between Germany and the USSR which woud have resulted in the collapse of both regiemes.

Finally, what do you mean by the US prevailed

]]> By: Rick Lugari http://the-american-catholic.com/2009/07/06/a-just-war/#comment-3241 Rick Lugari Tue, 07 Jul 2009 23:36:50 +0000 http://the-american-catholic.com/?p=10371#comment-3241 Awakaman, while your point is not lost on me, and I have great sympathy regarding the fate of Eastern Europe post-war, I think WWII is poor support for your point. I think FDR selling out Eastern Europe to Stalin was basically immoral, imprudent, unnecessary and unwise. However, the fate of those people would have been no better had the Axis Powers not been defeated, plus much of Western Europe and a good chunk of Asia and other parts of the world would have suffered the same fate. And since Western Europe and the US prevailed and were able to stand as a successful contrasting example - and as a stumbling block to Communist expansion - those 60 years may have been a drop in the bucket in comparison to what might have been. I don't like playing "what-if" all that much, but I think these are reasonable observations and conclusions. Awakaman, while your point is not lost on me, and I have great sympathy regarding the fate of Eastern Europe post-war, I think WWII is poor support for your point. I think FDR selling out Eastern Europe to Stalin was basically immoral, imprudent, unnecessary and unwise. However, the fate of those people would have been no better had the Axis Powers not been defeated, plus much of Western Europe and a good chunk of Asia and other parts of the world would have suffered the same fate. And since Western Europe and the US prevailed and were able to stand as a successful contrasting example – and as a stumbling block to Communist expansion – those 60 years may have been a drop in the bucket in comparison to what might have been. I don’t like playing “what-if” all that much, but I think these are reasonable observations and conclusions.

]]> By: awakaman http://the-american-catholic.com/2009/07/06/a-just-war/#comment-3240 awakaman Tue, 07 Jul 2009 23:12:01 +0000 http://the-american-catholic.com/?p=10371#comment-3240 I believe that by "there must be a serious prospect of success" can be interpreted to mean whether the intended consequences will be met without any unintended adverse consequences which are just as bad if not worse then the evils being fought. For example, World War II may have eliminated the Nazis but resulted in a great part of Europe falling under the yoke of Communism for over 60 years. As Howard Zinn once wrote: <i><b>We’ve got to rethink this question of war and come to the conclusion that war cannot be accepted, no matter what the reasons given, or the excuse: liberty, democracy; this, that. War is by definition the indiscriminate killing of huge numbers of people for ends that are uncertain. Think about means and ends, and apply it to war. The means are horrible, certainly. The ends, uncertain. That alone should make you hesitate.</i></b> I believe that by “there must be a serious prospect of success” can be interpreted to mean whether the intended consequences will be met without any unintended adverse consequences which are just as bad if not worse then the evils being fought. For example, World War II may have eliminated the Nazis but resulted in a great part of Europe falling under the yoke of Communism for over 60 years.

As Howard Zinn once wrote:

We’ve got to rethink this question of war and come to the conclusion that war cannot be accepted, no matter what the reasons given, or the excuse: liberty, democracy; this, that. War is by definition the indiscriminate killing of huge numbers of people for ends that are uncertain. Think about means and ends, and apply it to war. The means are horrible, certainly. The ends, uncertain. That alone should make you hesitate.

]]> By: Zak http://the-american-catholic.com/2009/07/06/a-just-war/#comment-3239 Zak Tue, 07 Jul 2009 14:55:36 +0000 http://the-american-catholic.com/?p=10371#comment-3239 When we consider the justice of the colonists cause, we should do well not to forget their opposition to the Quebec act and to limits on their ability to encroach on territory that the British crown had yielded, in treaties, to Indian tribes. I'm not sure how these causes, the justice of which is, at the least, suspect, would affect the overall <i>jus ad bellum</i> of the Revolution, but the do seem like they need to be considered. When we consider the justice of the colonists cause, we should do well not to forget their opposition to the Quebec act and to limits on their ability to encroach on territory that the British crown had yielded, in treaties, to Indian tribes. I’m not sure how these causes, the justice of which is, at the least, suspect, would affect the overall jus ad bellum of the Revolution, but the do seem like they need to be considered.

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