Cardinal O'Malley's Disconnect

cardinal-omalley

There is a disconnect between Cardinal O’Malley’s recent statements regarding the referral for abortions at Catholic hospitals in Boston and what is actually happening on the ground.  Sean Patrick Cardinal O’Malley, Archbishop of the Archdiocese of Boston, has stated in so many words that no abortions will be referred to patients in Catholic hospitals that is run by Caritas Christi Health Care Network (Caritas).  On the other hand the Boston Globe has reported that last week Thursday Massachusetts state regulators voted to accept a joint venture between a Catholic hospital chain and a healthcare organization that covers abortions, Centene (pronounced sen-teen).

This new joint venture between Caritas and Centene, called the Commonwealth Family Health Plan, will provide information on where to get an abortion at all Catholic hospitals operating under Caritas.  In addition Centene is a St. Louis based health organization that no hospital in the state of Massachusetts offers.  So basically this ‘joint venture’ will only be operating in Catholic hospitals under the Caritas plan.

The Boston Globe reports (emphasis mine):

“Among the written assurances are a pledge that medical staff operating under the Centene-Caritas insurance plan, known as Commonwealth Family Health Plan, will inform women of their healthcare options, including abortion. The insurers will also provide a toll-free customer service line, available around the clock, to inform women about where they can get contraception, sterilization, and other family planning services not offered in the immediate setting. In an emergency, a service representative will arrange transportation to the nearest appropriate facility, officials said.”

On March 5 Cardinal O’Malley sent out the following statement once the details became apparent to the public (emphasis mine):

“To be perfectly clear, Caritas Christi will never do anything to promote abortions, to direct any patients to providers of abortion or in any way to participate in actions that are contrary to Catholic moral teaching and anyone who suggest otherwise is doing a great disservice to the Catholic Church.We are committed to the Gospel of Life and no arrangement will be entered into unless it is completely in accord with Church teaching.”

There’s a disconnect between these two statements.  The following example will illustrate this point:

A patient walks into a Catholic hospital that is under the Caritas plan.  This patient is seeking an abortion so the Caritas-run hospital refers the patient to a 24 hour hotline run by a joint venture between Caritas and Centene.  The patient is referred once again by this Caritas-run joint venture to another hospital that provides abortions.

It would seem that an abortion referral twice removed is the justification being used to exonerates Caritas. How can that be adequate justification? Especially if the joint venture is run by Caritas and the abortion is paid through the Caritas-run joint venture at a non-Caritas-run hospital. This would seem to fall under material cooperation in abortion no matter how many degrees of separation there are. And then of course, one has to mention the precarious position of the sin of omission that Catholic physicians, nurses, and healthcare workers would be put in, under such an arrangement.  This is seems to me like a scandal in the Archdiocese of Boston.

Pro-Life groups such as the Catholic Action League of Massachusetts (CALM) mobilized to inform the public.  CALM also inquired with the Cardinal about the details of the plan and the discrepancy between what Caritas is saying and what the Cardinal said.  Cardinal O’Malley has not responded nor returned any of these inquiries except the statement above.

On March 6 due to the growing pressure and attention this issue has been receiving Cardinal O’Malley on his blog wrote a statement that he is deferring this to the National Catholic Bioethics Center (NCBC), which Cardinal O’Malley is a board member of.

No decision has been made by the NCBC as of yesterday, but the decision may have been made confidentially, essentially we may never know.  Cardinal O’Malley made clear in previous statements that he would not approve of this Caritas joint venture if it in any way violated Church teaching, yet on March 12 Massachusetts state regulators voted to approve of this arrangement via the joint venture.

The Boston Archdiocesan Chancery would not comment on the scandal only stating that Cardinal O’Malley was “out of town”.  Other sources say that the Cardinal could not be reached for comment because he was away in Rome all this week.  I was then referred to Terry Donilon, the Director of Communications and Public Affairs for the Archdiocese, and left a voice message that has not been returned.  Mr. Donilon did respond by email and he provided the same statements that Cardinal O’Malley issued and promised that Caritas would contact me, which they haven’t yet. It has been difficult in reaching anyone involved in this scandal except for the pro-life groups.

C.J. Doyle, executive director of the Catholic Action League of Massachusetts (CALM), said:

“I think its impossible to reconcile fidelity to Catholic teaching with even remote cooperation with abortion.”

One prominent Boston Catholic blogger, Carol McKinley, had this to say:

“There’s a simple formula to get to that answer.  If the Pope can’t do it and Cardinal’s and priests can’t do it – neither can Catholic physicians or any other healthcare worker.”

An alternate opinion was provided by Fr. James Bretzke, professor of moral theology at Boston College School of Theology and Ministry:

“Neither the Catholic moral tradition, nor the current Magisterium of the Church, has said that we absolutely cannot cooperate (or tolerate) in systems and/or actions that might be considered objectively immoral…”

This seeming scandal is exacerbated further with the lack of information emanating from the archdiocesan chancery as well as the continued silence from Cardinal O’Malley.  Suffice to say the disconnect from Cardinal O’Malley’s statements and what has happened will not go away.

In the end allowing one bureaucracy, NCBC, to make a decision for Cardinal O’Malley for another bureaucracy, Caritas, seems imprudent.  I pray that Cardinal O’Malley takes control of his archdiocese by nullifying the joint venture and to pursue a different course for Caritas.

(Photo by David L. Ryan/Globe Staff)

Update I: As of Friday, March 20, The National Catholic Bioethics Center (NCBC) is still reviewing the request sent forth by Cardinal O’Malley.  When a decision is made, the NCBC will report directly to Cardinal O’Malley and not issue a public statement because this was a private request that was made.  As soon as I find out anymore information I will post it immediately.

58 Responses to Cardinal O'Malley's Disconnect

  • Better to shut all Catholic hospitals down in Massachusetts than to have any connection with the obscenity of abortion.

  • Tito,

    I greatly appreciate your honest and forthright story on the scandal.

    The statements of the Cardinal and the statements of Caritas and the Commonwealth cannot possibly co-exit.

    The way the Cardinal and Chancery officials have responded to the public contradiction of his assertions has toppled what was left of trust in Cardinal O’Malley and the Boston Chancery.

    I’ve been asking Catholics to contemplate what the Cardinal is actually saying here, even in the best case scenario. He believes that he can send a distraught and confused woman from Caritas and use uncatechized people whom he is subcontracting to escort the woman to the abortion facility. According to his theological scenario, Catholic physicians can say we don’t do mercy killings here, but here is the phone number who can help you achieve that end.

    Is the Catholic Church finished with evangelization? This the biblical temptation of Eve holding out the apple at the Cardinal’s hands.

    Thanks for getting this out there.

  • Well done Carol and all y’all holding fast to the Faith in Taxachusetts. His Emininence has a ton of explaining to do and great reluctance to do it. Along with exercising the leadership entrusted to him by Our Dear John Paul Deuce of blessed memory. Physically hiding, using weasel words to describe services offered by consortium….. not the bold leadership the good Catholics of metro Bahston deserve. Methinks it’s an issue much like the growing number of tea parties held throughout fruited plain. Will have to be reported and initiated by bloggers and other folks outside MSM. Who don’t think these issues are worth covering. Oh- Seattle Post-Intelligencer shut down presses this week, going online only. Rocky Mountain News went room temperature two weeks ago. Any number of Dead Tree Journals still on Death Row. Real news to be found. Someone will find it.

  • I agree Donald. Shut the hospitals down.

    If Cardinal O’Malley continues on this course it’s apparent that he just “wants to get along, to go along” instead of upholding Catholic teaching.

  • I sat here the last couple of days listening to Tito contacting the chancery and attempting to get comment from them. Regardless of what the morals of the situation are, they are stonewalling, they have something to hide.

    This is a serious problem, it looks like his excellency was hoping it would slide through unnoticed, he attacks pro-lifers when they call him on it instead of just releasing the facts.

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  • What is really sad is you have lay thugs going against officials of the Church, not realizing that, typical of Pharisees, they too are guilty of material cooperation with abortion! Pay taxes, even a sales tax? Guilty as charged.

    Does one wonder why they won’t answer someone who, acting like this, is not even under their jurisdiction!?!!?!

    Once again, the lay thugs have no understanding of the material they are dealing with, and just go for low blows against the Church.

  • The bishop is voluntarily cooperating in an abortion.

    Tax-payers have to pay taxes.

    There is a significant difference between the two.

    Trying to draw a moral equivalency that paying taxes is the same as referring a patient to get an abortion is going down a rabbit hole, it’s a straw man argument.

    With that line of thinking it’s no wonder we have people going to far to the left that they give liberals a bad name, more importantly the Church. By offering fallow arguments that cause people to fall into sin.

  • Henry,

    It’s not sad to you the Cardinal is lying. It’s not sad the Cardinal willing to exploit women and send women in a taxicab to be executed. It’s not sad that he thinks he can hire a hit man. It’s not sad he’s forcing Catholic physicians and nurses to either quit their jobs or tell a confused and distraught women it’s ok to get her abortion.

    You fire your salvos at people who unravel the corruption and call them thugs. The Cardinal isn’t a thug, even when he’s willing to hire people to kill children and lie about it.

    How utterly girlyman.

  • Even if you don’t have it in you to be a man and protect women, children and the Deposit of Faith, the Cardinal’s salvation is on the line. You can’t possibly believe the lying and killing will not prohibit is entry into paradise.

  • One would do much better than looking to take on a Prince of the Church in the manner and lack of respect shown here. It’s quite clear, politics and political hackmanship is more important than proper decorum. Luther would be proud.

  • Tito

    No, tax payers do not have to pay taxes; they can go into non-cooperation mode, which many have done, and do so. There are consequences of such action, of course. But that you talk the talk, but never look to your own plank in the eye, says much.

  • Henry,

    I wasn’t addressing you directly in your comments.

    But since you made the assumption that I took your comments to be directed towards me, it only shows that lack of Christian charity on your part to call me a ‘thug’.

    Where are your manners?

    You’re doing a disservice to Jesus and our Catholic faith if you’re unable to address people as you would want to be addressed yourself.

    Again, it’s a rabbit hole that you’re making concerning paying taxes.

  • “…it only shows that lack of Christian charity …”

    Tito,

    What do you consider yourself doing in your treatment of, say, Egan? That post should have been simply destroyed.

    And OMalley here?

  • I’m not the one who has been making it a habit to go from Bishop to Bishop and find a reason to throw mud at them, and often based upon reasons which would condemn yourself if you had any honesty. There is a kind of respect to be given to Bishops. But you seem to think, like so many before you, that they have to listen to you, not you them. Why is it? Have you been given ordination? Have you been made a Prince of the Church?

    Material cooperation. Learn what it is before you speak of it again.

  • This hasn’t occurred very much, but any post that happens under mine, I’d be happy if you meditated on the mystery of Jesus walking to Calvary before you click to submit your comment.

  • Mark,

    I made a balanced report and made comments in regards to the handling of the situation. Nowhere did I demean the character of the either bishops.

  • Henry,

    If you would lift your reactionary glasses off and see that I wrote a balanced article you wouldn’t be throwing your accusations around.

    Your comments have not been moderated for quite awhile, you need to be careful on how you address your fellow Christians before pressing the submit button.

    I would suggest you meditate on the mystery of Jesus walking to Calvary prior to such action.

  • Henry K,

    why don’t you evaluate the situation and comment based on the facts instead of spouting off? This prince of the Church is not acting correctly in regard to a PUBLIC situation, it is our right as Catholics to discuss it and attempt to avoid further scandal to the Church.

    Let me as you, do YOU think that it’s morally acceptable for a Catholic hospital to provide the services reported in the article? For an entity owned by a Catholic organization to provide abortion referrals?

  • Tito,

    The apparent lack of self-reflection on your part is astounding.

    For one, are we talking about the same Egan article that even after several edits still bantered about such verbiage as “limp-wristed liberals” and outright accused the Cardinal of a profound failure to defend orthodoxy?

    On this article, you have not done all of your homework, of getting all of the relevant facts AND interpreting them from a perspective of a broad understanding of Catholic moral theology.

    We are at the point of our conversation at which the best thing is for the conversation to go on no further.

    Humility,
    M

  • Mark,

    I respect your opinion (as much as that may come to a surprise to you).

    I made numerous phone calls and email exchanges all this week, covering all my bases thrice over and then some.

    I even added an update after speaking with a buddy of mine at NCBC.

    Anyways, have a good weekend.

    As for me, I’m watching my AZ ‘Cats try and sneak one past Utah in the college tourney right now.

  • Henry,

    You’re confusing a cult with the Catholic religion.

    When a Cardinal agrees to turn in jews who show up at their facility and give them their ticket to Auschwitz, you running around calling him a prince of the Church lay thugs are throwing mud at, would only come from the mouths of a respectful gentleman such as yourself.

    Get out of the way.

  • The comment signed ‘humility”?

    Humility?

    Trying to turn murdering through the hands of a Cardinal into something Catholics shouldn’t be complaining about?

    When you prefer that children be executed by the Cardina’s hand than raise an objection, there is nothing humble in your actions. It’s cowardice.

    You can no more tell a distraught woman that abortion is an option for her and hand her the phone number, than you could hand a soldier the nail to drive into the palm of Christ. The Cardinal is holding out Eve’s apple and making that the new mission of the Catholic Church.

    Luckily, there are still men with testosterone who will not let him get away with it.

  • Mark,

    On this article, you have not done all of your homework, of getting all of the relevant facts AND interpreting them from a perspective of a broad understanding of Catholic moral theology.

    Is that the new word for “limp-wristed liberal”?

    We are at the point of our conversation at which the best thing is for the conversation to go on no further

    No further? The conversation has not even started, you defenders of the bishop engage in nothing but ad hominem rantings about “lay thugs”, as if criticizing the bishop is an offence in itself, instead of defending his actions. This is typical liberal clap-trap, just like Obamaa’s attacks against Fox and Rush, no substance to defend with, and so a resort to personal attacks.

    Why not look objectively at the situation and develop a defense of the bishop rather than an attack on the messenger? I don’t agree with the Cardinal at all, but if pressed could come up with some reasonable defenses to his actions.

  • Carol you rock. Thanks for all you do dealing with these
    katholics who entertain themselves with foolish theological
    gymnastics on their way to the lake of fire. In my Catholic
    world there are few of us. I see the Cathedral and I think of
    the men who cut and laid the stone. I think of the laborer’s
    confession, the model of St. Joseph who put the first tool
    in Jesus hand. The hand that would bring himself present for
    all in the Eucharist. And I know why I’m still Catholic. Even
    in a Boston work place where I hear “you still take your kids to that
    fag church?” I suggest first – go to confession brother-
    I wear my scapula and it never fails when the string
    breaks and a day goes by without it, one of the working men of the world say’s “hey where is your little cloth thing?” And I tell them
    again why I’m Catholic. And then the Abortion thing. the common
    “my old girlfriend had an abortion” … “how many kids you got now Catholic Boy?” I answer 7…so far.

    You know Carol I believe “your friends
    stab you right in the heart – not in the back” A dis-service to
    the Church? May God have mercy on the cardinal’s soul, and the
    wingnuts who worship HIM rather than the Transcendent God found
    truly present body, blood, soul and divinity in the Eucharist.

    Hey Tito – You’re cool too.

  • Oh..,the Church in all its glory is gathering here now.

    You all are going to build such a civilization of love, aren’t you?

  • Mark – The veneer of humble charm and respect is scratching off. Hey, I noticed your name on “Catholics for Obama’. That’s the site Eric McFadden started right before the police hauled him off to jail for stalking hookers and being the biggest pimp in ohio. I heard he’s starting Catholics for Pimps group while he’s waiting for trial. When you drop him a postcard, do tell him and the Catholic United cronies that I still have them on my radar screen! Something a little more pressing came up! :O)

    Tito, Matt – you go.

    Last CatholicinBoston – thanks for the kind words and support – may a few of those seven kids find their way to be a Catholic physician, nurse in Massachusetts where they will find, by the Christ, a safe place to practice!

  • p.s. What’s a little slander from a gal’s Cardinal Archbishop and a couple of village idiots?

    All in a good days work!

  • Carol,

    Your zealotry is so becoming.

    I am sure it wins many friends. Of course, you must save the Church, as I surmise you believe, so I should not worry about your friendships, as you think you have bigger fish to fry.

    You also have the wrong Obama site, as I know the woman who started the one at which I commented.

  • Mark D.,

    why aren’t you a zealot? I guess you’re just luke-warm, right?

  • Mark,

    Oh, I have plenty of friends dear. None of them betray Christ in the public square. People like that tend not to like having me around..you know…for obvious reasons!

    Yeah, you can pretty much count me a zealot for Christ and man, what a fire burns in my heart. Folks like you who live their lives trying to extinguish it are handy court jesters to have around. Here’s your hat son. When people hear you coming, they hear those little bells hanging off them.

    Get behind us Satan. We’ve got a Cardinal who thinks it’s ok to contract people to kill other people. He’s lost in the talons of the court jesters. The zealots are going to try to rescue him. You go ahead and try to make that ugly. God has your reward in Hand.

    enjoy!

  • Oh, and I don’t have the “wrong” Obama site.

    You do!

    By the way, I saw his little clip on Jay Leno. I wasn’t at all surprised to hear he finds retarded people a joke.

    Do tell what’s next. Will he be on American Idol?

  • and, ps. Mark,

    Don’t kid yourself into thinking I don’t have Catholic friends who struggle with the teachings of the Church. I most surely do. They are beloved. They struggle internally, quietly knowing they are at odds with the Catholic Church. They don’t take up a mission to mislead other Catholics. They left the Church like you should have done years ago. Instead, you and your “gentelman” malarkey stayed to mislead Catholics onto your mountain of dung, making like it was the road to the Kingdom of Heaven, when you are paving the path to hell.

    People like Tito, Matt, myself, and a few others stand in your way. We always have and we always will. 2000 years. Take your debauchery and feed it to the village idiots looking for an excuse to betray the Lord. It has no power here.

    You are no more gentlemen and respectful than the Nazis who de-clothed the jews and ushered them into the ovens. You are menace to society and to the Lord himself. Have the decency to leave those of us alone who will call the consciences poisoned by your nonsense back to Christ’s Truth – least you find yourself in quicksand that will eat you alive. Sooner, rather than later.

    Scram.

  • Carol,

    You need serious, serious help.

  • Mark,

    Let me guess.

    You’ve graduated to the next step of tactics.

    Groping for a crown of thorns to put on the head of people you’re trying to silence. Gentleman like, of course.

    Well, that’s a good one to pick from your bag of tricks. How often does it work for you? Do tell.

    If you think I’m bluffing about the quicksand, get a visitor’s pass from at the prison and visit Eric McFadden. He’ll tell you all about how his temptations, out of nowhere just took over his animus and destroyed him — until he landed where he landed. The temptations caused him to be so itchy, he just had to scratch them.

    You are on a perilous path. Continue if you must, tempt others to continue if you must. But, by Christ, stay away from attacking those of us calling back your victims, least you find yourself with an itch that will destroy you.

  • [edited for excessive rudeness to other commenters]

  • Tito,

    Where is your moderatiing here?

    This woman knows nothing about me, nor my faith’ and is on a complete rampage. She is veering towards complete hysteria.

  • Carol,

    This isn’t my thread, so I’m not going to moderate comments yet, but I’m stepping in here as one of the editors to say: “Chill.”

    UPDATE: All right, between while I was writing this things crossed the line.

  • At the Cross, I bow my knee
    Where Your Blood was shed for me
    There’s no greater love than this.

  • “The sacred synod teaches that the bishops have by divine institution taken the place of the apostles as pastors of the Church, in such wise that whoever listens to them is listening to Christ and whoever despises them despises Christ and him who sent Christ.” Lumen Gentium III: 20.

    “Whence it may not be doubted that this man was guilty of a crime not less than that of the vile Arius, who in like manner perished by the issue of his bowels through the draught. For this too is a heretical belief, that in the Church man may disobey the bishop of God to whom the sheep are entrusted to be fed, and that authority may be usurped by one to whom none has been entrusted, either by God or man.” St. Gregory of Tours, History of the Franks, II 23

    “I believe it is the devil, who, seeing that there is no path which leads more quickly to the highest perfection than that of obedience, suggests all these objections and difficulties under the guide of good.” St. Teresa of Avilla. Book of Foundations, V.

    “It is right, then, that we should be really Christians, and not merely have the name; even as there are some who recognize the bishop in their words, but disregard him in their actions.” St. Ignatius of Antioch to the Magnesians: IV.

    “…I exhort you: — Be zealous to do all things in harmony with God, with the bishop presiding in the place of God and the presbyters in the place of the Council of the Apostles, and the deacons who are most dear to me…” St. Ignatius of Antioch to the Magnesians: VI.

    “The signs by which you can recognize the presence of a carnal pride in a soul. [...] troublesome in the matter of obedience except where his own wishes and likings correspond to his duty…” St. John Cassian, Institutes, Chapter XXIX.

    “After all, it is a sign of an imperfect heart and a perverted will to examine cautiously the injunctions of our seniors; to hesitate at each command; to demand to know the reason for everything; to suspect the worst if this be denied us; never to obey willingly unless we are commanded something that suits us, or which has been demonstrated to our satisfaction as necessary or useful.” St Bernard of Clairvaux, On Precept and Dispensation, X.23.

    “… for I am under an obligation, not to dispute with my superiors, but to obey them, and it would not be right for me to dispute with them.” St. Teresa of Avilla. Interior Castle. III:ii.

    “When the thought strikes you to judge or condemn your superior, leap away as though from fornication. Give no trust, place, entry, or starting point to that snake. Say to this viper: ‘Listen to me deceiver, I have no right to pass judgment on my superior but he has the authority to be my judge. I do not judge him; he judges me.” St. John Climacus, Ladder of Divine Ascent, Step IV.

    “Hence great care should be taken by subordinates, whether clerical or lay, that they dare not to blame rashly the lives of their bishops or superiors [...] lest from their position of reproving evil they be sunk into greater depths through the impulse of elation.” St. Gregory the Great, Epistle XVII.

    “For if, on the vain presumption that they, too, are filled with the Holy Spirit, they refuse to be guided by another human being, they will only become the teachers of error.” St. Gregory the Great, Dialogues. Dialogue One.

    “But I perceive well that these good brethren look that I should rebuke the clergy and seek out their faults and lay them to their faces and write some work to their shame, or else they cannot call me but partial to priests. Howbeit, by this reason they may call me partial to laymen as well. For I never used that way neither toward the one nor toward the other. I find not yet such and store of virtue in myself as to think it meetly part and convenient for me to play, to rebuke as abominable, viscious folk anyone’s honest company, either spiritual or temporal, and much less meet to rebuke and reproach either the wholly spiritual or temporalty, because such as are very stark naught in both.”
    St. Thomas More, Apology

  • He doesn’t have the right to hire people to kill other people. Nor, does any other one have the right to keep pedophiles under cover.

    Dont’ twist the words of our prophets to make our faith into a cult. It’ isn’t.

  • “And all the degrees specially for my part, I have ever accounted it my duty to forbear all such manner of unmannerly behavior toward those two most eminent orders that God hath ordained in earth: the two great orders I mean of special, consecrated persons, the sacred princes and priests. Against any of which two reverent orders, whoso be so lewd
    irreverently to speak and malapertly to jest and rail shall play that part for me alone.” St. Thomas More, Apology

  • Henry,

    While I agree with you that we should be hesitant before criticizing how the bishops do their job (and I try to err on the side of not criticizing), clearly in some cases one might criticize. Anyone with a decent familiarity with Church history can see that.

    And I don’t seem to recall you getting quite so counter-Reformation-ish when Michael I. or MM lay into the bishops they don’t like on your own blog. Tu toque is not an argument, but consistency is nice.

  • No man would anymore be “obedient” to that debauchery than he would listening to his next door neighbor beat his wife and sexually abuse his children.

    At some point, Henry, you step in.

  • The Legion didn’t do it for Maciel. The Vatican didn’t step in either. In fact, we found out far too late that something was very wrong. And there were plenty of wingnuts around to say Maciel was being persecuted. Not until a few weeks ago did we find out the dark and dirty secrets.

    This is not our religion.

    People who rape and abuse other people, people who contract people to kill other people. Be a man.

  • Mark, you can call people thugs and imply they are mental and spiritually need help but you run for help from the editors when i point out your fallacies?

    Come now.

  • Darwin

    I’ve always been consistent on this part: show respect to bishops. One can disagree without slander or calumnity. What has been said here has been more than mere hyperbole, acting as if the Cardinal is directly involved with killing, which he is not. It’s a grave sin which is involved here. One can say that his way of handling something is not right, and explain or suggest something else, but to impose a judgment as we see here is beyond all sense. It has not even gone through proper channels, but is a direct assault on one of the princes of the church.

    “Wherefore subordinates of either order [clerical or laity] are to be admonished that, when they observe the deeds of their masters, they return to their own heart, and presume not in upbraidings of them, since The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.” St. Gregory the Great, Epistle XVII

  • The Cardinal has said it is ok for Catholcis to hire people to kill other people. And, he is setting a path for this to spread across the nation as Catholic doctrinal interpretation. There is nothing disrespectful about calling it what it is.

    You don’t know the facts at hand.

    You started the thread with slander and calumny.

  • Carol,

    I was maybe tooprovocative in my suggestion that your overzealousness may destroy relationships of charity, especailly whenever you may not have as complete an understanding of the situation as you may think you do.

    But I implore you to reread your own comments, your presumptuousness about my and others her commitments to the faith of the Church, its teachings and the most vulnerable members in society.

    You have additionally employed a most specious guilt by association tactic to somehow imply that I am in some real danger of “pimping” in the near future.

    You have told people to “get out of the way”; “scram”; stop being “girlymen” et al.

    And then, most ironically, you quaotea verse about submitting yourself humbly to the cross.

    aout of all due respect, where in G*d’s name is your capacity for any self reflection and control here.

    Please stop your sweeping judgments about people you know nothing of and accusations of apostasy, nazi-like behavior and siding with Satan.

    You must see that this is not how your Savior exhorts you to treat your brothers and sisters.

    Again, STOP>

  • “Therefore, if earthly power deviates, it will be judged by spiritual power; but if a lesser spiritual deviates, by its superior; but if the supreme (spiritual power deviates), it can be judged by God alone, not by man, as the Apostle testifies: ‘The spiritual man judges all things, but he himself is judged by no one’ [1 Cor 2:15]. But this authority, although it is given to man and is exercised by man, is not human, but rather divine…” Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctum. Denzinger 469.

    “For when you are in subjection to the bishop as to Jesus Christ it is clear to me that you are living not after men, but after Jesus Christ, who died for our sake, that by believing on his death you may escape death. Therefore it is necessary (as is your practice) that you should do nothing without the bishop, but also in subjection to the presbytery, as to the Apostles of Jesus Christ our hope, for if we live in him we shall be found in him.” St. Ignatius to the Trallians: II.

    “Hear also Christ saying, ‘All whatsoever they bid you observe’, that ‘observe and do.’ Thou despisest not me, but the Priesthood; when thou seest me stripped of this, then despise me; then no more will I endure to impose commands. But so long as we sit upon this throne, so long as we have the first place, we have both the dignity and power, even though we are unworthy. If the throne of Moses was of such reverence, that for its sake they were to be heard, much more the throne of Christ.” St. John Chrysostom. Homilies on Colosians. Homily III.

  • Mark

    As a side note, my post this evening for the Sunday of St John Climacus will be very apropos. I think you will see what I mean.

  • Mark,

    You pulled every trick out of your hat in this thread including trying to imply my spirituality had something wrong with it, you tried to imply I needed mental help. Then, you got all wiggy when it’s held up to your face and you run for the editors? You beat people up in the schoolyard and you run for the teacher when they call your bluff.

  • Carol,

    Are you really that incorrigibe. I think not.

    Take a deep breath, reset yourself in the image you were made in, and proceed forward.

    This is not about my nor your winning or losing.

  • When people are getting killed in a scenario the Bishop is setting up, it’s not the cross to you are bowing to.

    you know, for the record.

  • Mark,

    How I do love to be patronized. Almost as much as I love being called disturbed.

    If only I could let this Cardinal convince the nation he’s got it right. We can hire people to kill other people, Catholics can. Hey, Jim Jones did it himself. Too bad Caritas wasn’t there to form a partnership to hand out the kookaid.

    Let me see if I can try to rest myself in that image that God made me.

    …\..

    No. Darn it.

    It isn’t working.

    Mark – God blessings upon you and you too Henry.

    I’ve got a wedding to get to!

    Enjoy this glorious day.

  • Darwin – my apologies for causing you to step into the fugatz.

  • I will be turning off the comments for this post.

    We need to treat each other with charity, regardless of what side of the issue or shade of the issue we are all on.

    [I cannot be online all the time, so my apologies for that that has caused this thread to break down]

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