Comments on: When to be Progressive http://the-american-catholic.com/2009/01/26/when-to-be-progressive/ Politics and Culture from a Catholic perspective. Wed, 23 May 2012 01:28:56 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: catherine mega http://the-american-catholic.com/2009/01/26/when-to-be-progressive/#comment-11040 catherine mega Thu, 29 Jan 2009 20:59:04 +0000 http://the-american-catholic.com/?p=3980#comment-11040 the vatican has to be careful about wnat mr. obama is doing. too much government is not good. he o.k. the use of our money to be used for family planning and the hand out of codoms in the u.s. and around the world. the church could promote more morality and spirituality. God always provides. everything will fall in place. have faith in God. Catherine the vatican has to be careful about wnat mr. obama is doing. too much government is not good. he o.k. the use of our money to be used for family planning and the hand out of codoms in the u.s. and around the world. the church could promote more morality and spirituality. God always provides. everything will fall in place. have faith in God. Catherine

]]> By: Matt McDonald http://the-american-catholic.com/2009/01/26/when-to-be-progressive/#comment-11039 Matt McDonald Thu, 29 Jan 2009 17:34:34 +0000 http://the-american-catholic.com/?p=3980#comment-11039 Gabriel, agreed. <i>am uncetain whether torture has been specifically forbidden by the Church. I fear that its worst effect is on the torurer,</i> I am certain that one could quite reasonably conclude that it has been forbidden, i'm not sure I would be comfortable arguing against that. That's does not of course necessarily make it "intrinsically" evil. It's possible that at some point, the Church could ban capital punishment if the circumstances of the times, and, as you point out our understanding of the moral effect on the executioner and society is ever found to demonstrate circumstances where it doesn't cause more harm than good no longer exist. I would argue against such an effort, but would give intellectual assent if it were decided. Gabriel,

agreed.

am uncetain whether torture has been specifically forbidden by the Church. I fear that its worst effect is on the torurer,

I am certain that one could quite reasonably conclude that it has been forbidden, i’m not sure I would be comfortable arguing against that. That’s does not of course necessarily make it “intrinsically” evil. It’s possible that at some point, the Church could ban capital punishment if the circumstances of the times, and, as you point out our understanding of the moral effect on the executioner and society is ever found to demonstrate circumstances where it doesn’t cause more harm than good no longer exist. I would argue against such an effort, but would give intellectual assent if it were decided.

]]> By: Gabriel Austin http://the-american-catholic.com/2009/01/26/when-to-be-progressive/#comment-11038 Gabriel Austin Thu, 29 Jan 2009 17:26:20 +0000 http://the-american-catholic.com/?p=3980#comment-11038 Dear Matt, Thank you for baccking down a bit. Now we can get to the core of the discussion - the morality of torture. It is indeed a complex matter. And it is, I think, parallel to the question of the death penalty. Both are to be examined in the light of the effect on the torturer or the executioner. Pain and death are part of our world, of our existence. And so much so that Our Lord subjected Himself to both. By which He conquered both. For us, death is but the prelude to the next world. So much so that we are forbidden to kill ourselves. We must wait until God calls us. I am uncetain whether torture has been specifically forbidden by the Church. I fear that its worst effect is on the torurer, [Greatly mixed in with this is sadism]. Dear Matt,
Thank you for baccking down a bit. Now we can get to the core of the discussion – the morality of torture. It is indeed a complex matter. And it is, I think, parallel to the question of the death penalty.
Both are to be examined in the light of the effect on the torturer or the executioner. Pain and death are part of our world, of our existence. And so much so that Our Lord subjected Himself to both. By which He conquered both.
For us, death is but the prelude to the next world. So much so that we are forbidden to kill ourselves. We must wait until God calls us.
I am uncetain whether torture has been specifically forbidden by the Church. I fear that its worst effect is on the torurer, [Greatly mixed in with this is sadism].

]]> By: Matt McDonald http://the-american-catholic.com/2009/01/26/when-to-be-progressive/#comment-11037 Matt McDonald Thu, 29 Jan 2009 17:03:04 +0000 http://the-american-catholic.com/?p=3980#comment-11037 DarwinCatholic, I quite agree: This should suffice? <i>1756 It is therefore an error to judge the morality of human acts by considering only the intention that inspires them or the circumstances (environment, social pressure, duress or emergency, etc.) which supply their context. There are acts which, in and of themselves, independently of circumstances and intentions, are always gravely illicit by reason of their object; such as blasphemy and perjury, murder and adultery. One may not do evil so that good may result from it.</i> It seems to me that if pointing a gun at the head of man who may not be morally culpable for any of his actions and pulling the trigger is NOT intrinsically evil, I don't see how torture in an of itself could be, unless you define torture to a level which makes it exclude any possible treatment that would possibly be morally acceptable (ie. maiming and mutilation). In that case, I think it's fair to suggest that it would not be a changing of the morality of an action to define it as intrinsically evil, and not a progressivist notion. DarwinCatholic,

I quite agree:

This should suffice?

1756 It is therefore an error to judge the morality of human acts by considering only the intention that inspires them or the circumstances (environment, social pressure, duress or emergency, etc.) which supply their context. There are acts which, in and of themselves, independently of circumstances and intentions, are always gravely illicit by reason of their object; such as blasphemy and perjury, murder and adultery. One may not do evil so that good may result from it.

It seems to me that if pointing a gun at the head of man who may not be morally culpable for any of his actions and pulling the trigger is NOT intrinsically evil, I don’t see how torture in an of itself could be, unless you define torture to a level which makes it exclude any possible treatment that would possibly be morally acceptable (ie. maiming and mutilation). In that case, I think it’s fair to suggest that it would not be a changing of the morality of an action to define it as intrinsically evil, and not a progressivist notion.

]]> By: DarwinCatholic/Brendan http://the-american-catholic.com/2009/01/26/when-to-be-progressive/#comment-11036 DarwinCatholic/Brendan Thu, 29 Jan 2009 16:28:44 +0000 http://the-american-catholic.com/?p=3980#comment-11036 Not to make the order taller, but it strikes me that the phrase "intrinsically evil" itself is one that is used often but seldom defined, and that this is part of the problem. Not to make the order taller, but it strikes me that the phrase “intrinsically evil” itself is one that is used often but seldom defined, and that this is part of the problem.

]]> By: Matt McDonald http://the-american-catholic.com/2009/01/26/when-to-be-progressive/#comment-11035 Matt McDonald Thu, 29 Jan 2009 16:17:36 +0000 http://the-american-catholic.com/?p=3980#comment-11035 Eric, I understand, I look forward to continuing the discussion. I would definitely agree with you on racism, although slavery is another matter (except when it is based on racism as in the American model). We have to be clear that not being intrinsically evil doesn't mean that it is acceptable in general, but that it may be been under certain circumstances even if those circumstances are not even possible. It is possible that when the pope speaks of things which can not allowed he is referring to the context of our present day where the rule of law largely holds over chaos. Eric,

I understand, I look forward to continuing the discussion. I would definitely agree with you on racism, although slavery is another matter (except when it is based on racism as in the American model).

We have to be clear that not being intrinsically evil doesn’t mean that it is acceptable in general, but that it may be been under certain circumstances even if those circumstances are not even possible. It is possible that when the pope speaks of things which can not allowed he is referring to the context of our present day where the rule of law largely holds over chaos.

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