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	<title>Comments on: The Dilemma of the PLCOS</title>
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	<link>http://the-american-catholic.com/2008/10/20/the-dilemma-of-the-plcos/</link>
	<description>Politics and Culture from a Catholic perspective.</description>
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		<title>By: Christopher Blosser</title>
		<link>http://the-american-catholic.com/2008/10/20/the-dilemma-of-the-plcos/#comment-25867</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Blosser</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Oct 2008 06:23:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://amcatholic.wordpress.com/?p=908#comment-25867</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Notice in this article, 1) Kmiec mischaracterizes the debate about abortion as an issue of ‘religious freedom’, 2) he advocates the ‘personally opposed’ position.&lt;/i&gt;

If I didn&#039;t know any better, I&#039;d suspect Kmiec of taking his talking points directly from Gerald Campbell of &lt;i&gt;Vox Nova&lt;/i&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Notice in this article, 1) Kmiec mischaracterizes the debate about abortion as an issue of ‘religious freedom’, 2) he advocates the ‘personally opposed’ position.</i></p>
<p>If I didn&#8217;t know any better, I&#8217;d suspect Kmiec of taking his talking points directly from Gerald Campbell of <i>Vox Nova</i>.</p>
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		<title>By: fus01</title>
		<link>http://the-american-catholic.com/2008/10/20/the-dilemma-of-the-plcos/#comment-25866</link>
		<dc:creator>fus01</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Oct 2008 16:16:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://amcatholic.wordpress.com/?p=908#comment-25866</guid>
		<description>Regarding Kmiec specifically, I think a strong argument could be made that he is now arguing in bad faith. See, for example, his recent article in the LA Times:

&quot;...when these differences are great and persistent, as they unfortunately have been on abortion, the common political ideal may consist only of that space. This does not, of course, leave the right to life undecided or unprotected. Nor for that matter does the reservation of space for individual determination usurp for Caesar the things that are God’s, or vice versa. Rather, it allows this sensitive moral decision to depend on religious freedom and the voice of God as articulated in each individual’s voluntary embrace of one of many faiths.&quot;

Notice in this article, 1) Kmiec mischaracterizes the debate about abortion as an issue of &#039;religious freedom&#039;, 2) he advocates the &#039;personally opposed&#039; position. As he of all people is certainly aware that Catholics are against abortion as a human rights issue rather than a &#039;religious&#039; issue, it&#039;s hard to maintain that he is arguing in good faith. I think earlier this year Kmiec made a number of arguments that could be held in good faith, but it seems to me that his recent statements are following the well-worn &#039;personally opposed&#039; path of many Democrats before him.

Perhaps this is unfair, but it strikes me as rather opportunistic for him to try and cash in on the Catholic brand by writing an book-length apologia for Obama. The only reason that the book is important is because he&#039;s using the Catholic label, and he, in fact, misrepresents some of Obama&#039;s past positions in the book (always in ways that are more flattering to Obama).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Regarding Kmiec specifically, I think a strong argument could be made that he is now arguing in bad faith. See, for example, his recent article in the LA Times:</p>
<p>&#8220;&#8230;when these differences are great and persistent, as they unfortunately have been on abortion, the common political ideal may consist only of that space. This does not, of course, leave the right to life undecided or unprotected. Nor for that matter does the reservation of space for individual determination usurp for Caesar the things that are God’s, or vice versa. Rather, it allows this sensitive moral decision to depend on religious freedom and the voice of God as articulated in each individual’s voluntary embrace of one of many faiths.&#8221;</p>
<p>Notice in this article, 1) Kmiec mischaracterizes the debate about abortion as an issue of &#8216;religious freedom&#8217;, 2) he advocates the &#8216;personally opposed&#8217; position. As he of all people is certainly aware that Catholics are against abortion as a human rights issue rather than a &#8216;religious&#8217; issue, it&#8217;s hard to maintain that he is arguing in good faith. I think earlier this year Kmiec made a number of arguments that could be held in good faith, but it seems to me that his recent statements are following the well-worn &#8216;personally opposed&#8217; path of many Democrats before him.</p>
<p>Perhaps this is unfair, but it strikes me as rather opportunistic for him to try and cash in on the Catholic brand by writing an book-length apologia for Obama. The only reason that the book is important is because he&#8217;s using the Catholic label, and he, in fact, misrepresents some of Obama&#8217;s past positions in the book (always in ways that are more flattering to Obama).</p>
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		<title>By: Ryan Harkins</title>
		<link>http://the-american-catholic.com/2008/10/20/the-dilemma-of-the-plcos/#comment-25865</link>
		<dc:creator>Ryan Harkins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Oct 2008 16:14:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://amcatholic.wordpress.com/?p=908#comment-25865</guid>
		<description>The justification comes from, I think, the notion that if the motivation isn&#039;t there, it doesn&#039;t matter what is on the books.  (Included might also be a misguided feeling that some abortions are okay, such as when it is either abort the baby or lose both the baby and the mother.)  For example, here at UW, there&#039;s still a law that says if we ride our horses onto campus and tether them in Prexy&#039;s Pasture, the UW President has to feed and water them.  Strangely, you don&#039;t actually see any horses tethered in the pasture (though we have now filled it with all kinds of bizarre artwork).  The law is on the books, but there&#039;s no motivation to take advantage of it.

The PLCOS feel that if the motivation to have abortions is not there, it doesn&#039;t matter if abortion is legal or not--no one will have one.  Just as how when alcohol is legal, no one ever binge drinks, and when controlled substances are legal the fascination with them dies out and no ever uses them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The justification comes from, I think, the notion that if the motivation isn&#8217;t there, it doesn&#8217;t matter what is on the books.  (Included might also be a misguided feeling that some abortions are okay, such as when it is either abort the baby or lose both the baby and the mother.)  For example, here at UW, there&#8217;s still a law that says if we ride our horses onto campus and tether them in Prexy&#8217;s Pasture, the UW President has to feed and water them.  Strangely, you don&#8217;t actually see any horses tethered in the pasture (though we have now filled it with all kinds of bizarre artwork).  The law is on the books, but there&#8217;s no motivation to take advantage of it.</p>
<p>The PLCOS feel that if the motivation to have abortions is not there, it doesn&#8217;t matter if abortion is legal or not&#8211;no one will have one.  Just as how when alcohol is legal, no one ever binge drinks, and when controlled substances are legal the fascination with them dies out and no ever uses them.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Burgwald</title>
		<link>http://the-american-catholic.com/2008/10/20/the-dilemma-of-the-plcos/#comment-25864</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Burgwald</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Oct 2008 15:56:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://amcatholic.wordpress.com/?p=908#comment-25864</guid>
		<description>Ryan, I agree that it&#039;s extremely unlikely that a PLCOS would be rooting for the GOP, but how else can they maintain their position that a President Obama wouldn&#039;t be able to achieve his agenda with regard to ESCR (clone &amp; kill) and abortion? If a PLCOS both supports Obama *and* a stronger Dem majority in both houses (as presumably s/he would), the almost certain consequence is the federal funding of abortion and destructive ESCR.

I agree with you on the question of assumptions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ryan, I agree that it&#8217;s extremely unlikely that a PLCOS would be rooting for the GOP, but how else can they maintain their position that a President Obama wouldn&#8217;t be able to achieve his agenda with regard to ESCR (clone &amp; kill) and abortion? If a PLCOS both supports Obama *and* a stronger Dem majority in both houses (as presumably s/he would), the almost certain consequence is the federal funding of abortion and destructive ESCR.</p>
<p>I agree with you on the question of assumptions.</p>
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		<title>By: Ryan Harkins</title>
		<link>http://the-american-catholic.com/2008/10/20/the-dilemma-of-the-plcos/#comment-25863</link>
		<dc:creator>Ryan Harkins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Oct 2008 15:51:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://amcatholic.wordpress.com/?p=908#comment-25863</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t know that it is necessarily the case that pro-life Catholics for Obama would be routing for the GOP to take control of Congress to stymie any abortion bill.  I think the PLCOS would be for a Democratic majority so that Obama&#039;s administration can start work its miracles.  I think also it has to come down to fundamental assumptions.

From the arguments I&#039;ve read, the two things that make Obama attractive to Catholics is his economic policies (read social justice), and the War in Iraq.  If the assumption is that abortions occur predominantly because of financial concerns, then fixing the economy--or at least offering huge entitlements--should fix the abortion problem.  If we feel justified in &quot;slaughtering innocents in Iraq&quot;, we give scandal and teach that we can kill anyone in our way, and so shutting down the slaughterhouse would send the message that it isn&#039;t okay to slaughter the innocents.  Thus Obama, despite being hugely pro-choice, would actually lead to a decrease in abortions.

Of course, if your fundamental assumption is that people predominantly have abortions because they can&#039;t stand the inconvenience of a kid (while enjoying all the pleasures of sex), then the whole argument above falls apart.

I wonder which assumption is correct?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t know that it is necessarily the case that pro-life Catholics for Obama would be routing for the GOP to take control of Congress to stymie any abortion bill.  I think the PLCOS would be for a Democratic majority so that Obama&#8217;s administration can start work its miracles.  I think also it has to come down to fundamental assumptions.</p>
<p>From the arguments I&#8217;ve read, the two things that make Obama attractive to Catholics is his economic policies (read social justice), and the War in Iraq.  If the assumption is that abortions occur predominantly because of financial concerns, then fixing the economy&#8211;or at least offering huge entitlements&#8211;should fix the abortion problem.  If we feel justified in &#8220;slaughtering innocents in Iraq&#8221;, we give scandal and teach that we can kill anyone in our way, and so shutting down the slaughterhouse would send the message that it isn&#8217;t okay to slaughter the innocents.  Thus Obama, despite being hugely pro-choice, would actually lead to a decrease in abortions.</p>
<p>Of course, if your fundamental assumption is that people predominantly have abortions because they can&#8217;t stand the inconvenience of a kid (while enjoying all the pleasures of sex), then the whole argument above falls apart.</p>
<p>I wonder which assumption is correct?</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Burgwald</title>
		<link>http://the-american-catholic.com/2008/10/20/the-dilemma-of-the-plcos/#comment-25862</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Burgwald</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Oct 2008 15:41:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://amcatholic.wordpress.com/?p=908#comment-25862</guid>
		<description>Unfortunately, Cathy, I&#039;m not surprised... concerned (like you) and disappointed, but not surprised. Most Catholics have traditionally gone Democrat, and they also traditionally go with the flow.

A lot of work remains in evangelizing and catechizing our own.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Unfortunately, Cathy, I&#8217;m not surprised&#8230; concerned (like you) and disappointed, but not surprised. Most Catholics have traditionally gone Democrat, and they also traditionally go with the flow.</p>
<p>A lot of work remains in evangelizing and catechizing our own.</p>
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